Lawyer Destroys Arguments for Game Piracy

Pandabearparade

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Pirating is bad.

But why is the Escapist -constantly- harping on the topic? Seriously, are you getting corporate kickbacks? Find another villain to hate on, this is getting old.
 

ResonanceSD

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Pandabearparade said:
Pirating is bad.

But why is the Escapist -constantly- harping on the topic? Seriously, are you getting corporate kickbacks? Find another villain to hate on, this is getting old.


Dude its a gaming website. This is their recurring villain.
 

TechNoFear

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Eternal Taros said:
My work cost me time, which also exists in finite quantities.
The market for a piece of software is also finite.

The time a developer has (in their life) to create software (to sell) is also finite.

Eternal Taros said:
I will die at some point. Therefore, if my employer does not pay me, he is fucking me over by taking something finite and not giving it back. In essence, theft.
You make the distinction that because the pirate was not going to buy the software it is not a 'loss'.

Doesn't that mean that if your employer had planned not to pay you then its not theft?

Eternal Taros said:
Do you know what LOST means?
It means that it's no longer available or in existence anymore.
What if I copy your your identity?

You still are you, just I am as well (so there is no 'theft').

Yet you have 'lost' something.

F4LL3N said:
Most people finally realize the truth. It's the developer/publishers fault, not ours. They've fucked themselves over by punishing their customers and making shitty games.
Yea, there is absolutely no way to know what is a good game before buying it...

Its not like you could read a review, play a demo or just not play the game.

BTW I am a software developer, so thanks for calling my work shitty.

Tell me what work you do, so I can arbitrarily decide that you do shitty work, so I don't have to pay you for it.
 

hooksashands

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It's like the Red Scare all over again, except now instead of accusing everyone of being a communist we accuse them of being a pirate. Or a pirate advocate.

"You're against DRM? Pirate!"

"You buy games used? Pirate!"

"You don't think our shitty B-list title should have a 60 dollar pricetag? Pirate!"

And so on.

Sad how we continue to let this scare-mongering bullshit work. As soon as anyone objects to DRM or online passes, suddenly they're a pirate. How fucking novel. This is the industry's answer to every question regarding business models or customer policy, this is how they deflect any criticism: "Piracy hurp durp!"

No wonder legislation like SOPA gets to see the light of day. We practically tied a noose around our necks and threw the end over a ceiling beam.
 

thedo12

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Meh I'm a consequentialist so I don't really care wither people think pirating is morally right or wrong.I've spent probably near 3000 + dollars on gaming in my 20 years of life and pirated maybe 100 dollars worth at most, so even if you go by "morality" I've done far more good than bad.

But basically I think piracy is a good thing all together, it's basically the perfect form of protest, being able to fully enjoy a product and not give money to the developer.This is necessary when games like COD are selling 60 dollar expansion packs.


60 bucks for a game is far too expensive , even if you use a variety of reviews and demo's it may not be enough to stop a bad purchase.For example I spent 60+ $ on deus ex and regretted it , sure I admit it is a quality game but it's just not my taste. There's 60 bucks on a game I didn't enjoy and in this recession that's quite a bit of money for average people.



Although I don't support rampant piracy , (I only support it as a rarely used tool) I'm just trying to give the other side of the argument a good chance. Although I'm sure some of you will try and demonize me.
 

Denamic

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Mimsofthedawg said:
Denamic said:
Mimsofthedawg said:
LilithSlave said:
but in the meantime it means a financial loss for the developer
NO, it does not. That logic is incredibly erroneous.
game costs $60

5 million pirated copies of the Witcher 2 = $300,000,000 in lost sales.

... how do they not lose money?
By that logic, pirates have stolen several times more money than exists on the planet.
You obviously know nothing about economics.

If you did, you'd know that modern money doesn't really exist at all, but is given value by big corporate banks.

Never mind that, if you added up all the piracy, it would only be in the low-mid billions.
*Obviously*
I'd need to throw out ridiculously flawed logic to understand economics at all.
 

Sixties Spidey

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bahumat42 said:
buy teh haloz said:
I can understand the complaints regarding piracy. It absolutely sucks that developers and publishers lose out on sales and all, but I have a couple qualms with this, mostly because he isn't looking through a consumer perspective of things. There are a couple reasons why piracy is prevalent:

1. We don't want to put up with bullshit. We have absolutely no patience for DRM and less so for publishers who have a narrow and close-minded view of PC gaming as a whole. Denying them of a sale seems like a reasonable thing to do when said publisher implements a mechanism that sets out to punish people who purchased the game and inadvertently REWARDS those who pirate the game. It all comes down to the message said publisher conveys, and if the publisher is saying "Fuck you, we don't want your money.", they shouldn't ***** when they're refused a sale in favor of a better functioning pirated copy.

Same applies to those who force a spyware client to run a game (Battlefield 3) and the same applies to those that frequently and traditionally screw consumers over because they live in different territories of the globe (Nintendo and Xenoblade Chronicles). Publisher refuses our money? Okay! Don't come crying and blithely whining "HURF A DURF, PIRACY ARE BAD BECAUSE WE IS LOSING LEGITAMITE SALES. HURRRR DURRRRR"

2. Piracy is a good testing mechanism for PC gamers. We pirate the game, if it runs, HEY GREAT! We can buy the game and enjoy a legitimate copy to enjoy. I mean come on, Battlefield 3 and Crysis 2 are on that list, those are, if anything, heavy duty games that require a really good computer.

3. Piracy helps to justify a purchase. Yes, I know there is a thing called demos, but not a lot of games have them. I'll be the first to admit that I pirated Minecraft, but after playing the pirated copy, I set out to purchase it, knowing that the purchase I made was worth it having played it before and knowing what I was getting myself into. Plus, games are 50+ dollars these days. How do I know whether or not the game I'll be getting is either A: Good, B: Shit, or C: A console/PC port depending on the platform of choice?
i have na answer for three
their called reviews, find someone whose opinion you trust and voila. Couple that with common sense and a little poke around and money spent effectively.
Common sense and money spent effectively, yes. I'll look through LP's on YouTube and play demos if they're available, but reviews? Not really. I usually trust the opinions of my friends who've played the game I want to buy and the User Review board here, but I rarely, if ever, trust professional reviews. The Escapist is an exception, but IGN, GameSpot, and GameTrailers are a few of the sites that I avoid like the plague, as both have a history of over-exaggerating the good and bad and the latter has a history of bias against anything Nintendo or Sony.

And don't, for the love of God, don't mention Metascores and User Reviews on Metacritic.
 

Wargamer

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Maybe we are self-entitled... or maybe, far more likely, the Game Developers are even more self-entitled.

I took the liberty of reading the copyright page at the front of a book recently. It's fascinating, primarily because what it says amounts to "X wrote this book, Y published this book. Do not claim this work as your own."

Wow. In an age where I am treated like a criminal for LOOKING at a Used Game shelf, that's amazingly refreshing.

See, here's the thing; I buy a book, and it's mine. I can read it whenever, wherever and however I like. I can give it away as a gift, sell it on, loan it to a friend for them to read (that might not be 100% 'legal', but no law inforcement agency on the planet gives a shit and so they let it happen). I can write notes in the margins, doodle on the cover or tear it up and use it as bedding for a pet hamster. I paid for it, it's mine. Open and shut case.

We, the customer, see ALL products this way. We also acknowledge, in a nebulous sort of way, that there are some things that are wrong. We know that we shouldn't claim to have MADE the product or its content unless we honestly did. We know we shouldn't make and sell copies of the product, nor should we use it for criminal activity.

However, when I buy a CD off iTunes, I feel entitled to burn it to a disk so I can listen on my home stereo, or in my car. I bought the music, after all, so I should be allowed to listen to it however I want, on whatever media system I want. Technically, this is illegal in Britain, as is burning a CD to your computer so you can put it on iTunes. I believe such an action would be considered 'Piracy' by the letter of the law, but here in the Real World nobody actually believes that.

Now, we can establish that two things are, by and large, true. The first is we want to be able to do whatever we want with what we own, and the second is it is LEGAL to do whatever we want with what we own.

Enter, the Games Industry.

The Games Industry likes to think that we do not own products, so much as rent them. See lawsuits against console modders for reference.
The Games Industry abhors the idea of Used Games. Whilst I am 100% behind them with regard to GameStop's business model and the thieving little shits who sell 'nearly new' games, I refuse to believe that buying out of the 2 for £15 used game bin is ruining the industry, any more than used book shops are causing printers to go bust.

Moreover, their anti-piracy efforts are NOT welcome. I hold up my hand and admit to having pirated everything under the sun. I listen to music and watch movies on Youtube that I haven't paid for, and probably never WILL pay for. That's Piracy, or something like it. I own mp3s I didn't pay for. There are DVDs in my house that are clearly counterfiet. I have on my hard drive pdf books that I have no intention of paying money for, mostly because the content was so bad I refuse to reward people for writing it, but I needed the content at some time or another.

Doubters, ***** all you want, but I stand by the argument many use; this shit is not causing lost sales.
I have a bookshelf full of Pratchett, Abnett and several other writers, and I have so many magazines, comics and RPG/wargame publications my floorboards are going to break if I buy the new edition of D&D. I didn't steal or pirate any of that. What I stole was the shit stuff - the stuff I wouldn't pay for anyway.

Movies? I have a ton of them. I still have VHS tapes of the first Remastering of the SW Old Trilogy. If I like a movie, I will buy it, or at least drop hints around Christmas and birthdays that said film would make a great present. What films do I pirate? The 'meh' titles. The ones where I stand there in the store and say "do I really want this enough to buy it?" I never do. I put it back and walk off and forget about it for two months.
Thing is, sometimes this causes a sale. My friends and I watched In Bruges after one of them pirated a copy. He loved the film so much he later BOUGHT a copy!

Finally, music. If you were to look through my list of pirated music you would see a trend; you'd find a few songs from various artists, no more than one or two each, usually their more popular or better known titles. If you then compared it to what I own, and you'd see a more revealing trend - that with several 'pirated' bands I later went out and bought whole CDs.
Often, the Piracy has a reason: You try finding a copy of Quest for the Manticore by 3 Inches of Blood legally, and YOU WILL FAIL! They won't let me buy it, so I'm happy to steal it. Their loss.
Most of the rest can be considered sampling; if I liked what I hear, I buy more. I have pirated about... three Disturbed songs. I own one Disturbed CD, bought because I liked what I'd pirated. The Cog is Dead? You've never heard of them. Nor had I, but someone put a copy of their CD on Youtube and I fell in love. Within a month I owned a copy myself.

Already I can hear the outrage at this, but let's deal with hard fact for a moment. Being generous, I would say that I have stolen about... £2.40 worth of music. That is, I own three songs that I could have downloaded of iTunes at 80p a pop, was WILLING to do so, but decided not to because, well, piracy is free. However, I have BOUGHT at least £80 worth of music because of Piracy and/or people illegally hosting copyright music on sites like Youtube. Again, that assumes £8 a CD off iTunes. The reality is probably much higher; I discovered Abney Park thanks to someone linking to an illegally hosted song on iTunes. I've spent £30 on merchandise alone, not including the music (of which I bought five CDs worth).
Do you think Abney Park are going to begrudge me that 'stolen' music? Do you think they're going to be pissed off at me for discovering them via illegal material and subsequently buying shit off them? I think they'd be THRILLED to know that, thanks to someone posting Airship Pirates on Youtube without their consent, they have a fan who's spending money with them!

I would like at this point to inform you that the 'too long; didn't read' line is not for those of you who read the whole thing. You are an awesome person.

So where does this leave games? It leaves them in a bit of a mess. After all, we've all become accustomed to cheap media. I admit that I have bought some bad films that would normally be in the 'just pirate it' category simply because it's £3 at ASDA. For the sake of a pint and a bit of convenience I'll buy the damn thing... yet if I want to buy a cheap, second-hand copy of a game I now risk losing out on massive amounts of content unless I spend another £15 for a one-use unlock code.

I don't like that. I don't like being treated like a criminal over something I paid for. I don't like that owning a second hand game is wrong - how that game is sold is a fair bone of contention, but why is it the CUSTOMER who is punished and not the assholes running the store?
I don't like companies putting malware on my PC, or installing ANYTHING without my consent. I don't like being FORCED to have an active online connection to play an OFFLINE game.
Moreover, I don't like being called a criminal because I have a dozen ROMS of SNES and MegaDrive games on my PC. You tell me a place that still sells Mutant League Hockey!

In short, I don't like that the games industry takes all its shit out on us. It has a problem with used game retailers, so it punishes the customer. It has a pathological fear of piracy, so it punishes the people who PAID for a copy. It's just not acceptable! I bought your fucking game and you have the fucking cheek to spit on me for it? Well fuck you, EA! Fuck you everyone who supports invasive DRM, and fuck you everyone who expects me to pay another £10 to play a game I got out of the bargain bin! If you want to treat me like a pirate so bad, then maybe I should start stealing your games instead! After all, your shit is much more tolerable when I'm getting £200 worth of games and only spending £40!

Every other industry out there seeks to control piracy in ways that do not place undue cost and/or frustration on the user. If Gaming follows there is no guarantee it'll stop piracy. Hell, there's no guarantee it won't INCREASE Piracy... but what it WILL do is kill support for piracy; I don't condone pirating books, music or film on the whole, even though I do it myself. I firmly believe that if you like something you should pay for it. The problem comes to games, particularly ones made by companies with a god-awful DRM track record. I just can't tell someone 'you should pay for that game if you like it so much' when I know, more often than not, the pirated copy is the more desirable one.


tl;dr: You're a retard and a failure at life. Go back to the start and read the post.
 

Bedewyr

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Tax_Document said:
bombadilillo said:
brainslurper said:
LilithSlave said:
but in the meantime it means a financial loss for the developer
NO, it does not. That logic is incredibly erroneous.
Yes it does. They worked hard on something, and what would be a paying customer got it without paying for it, depriving the developer or their profit.
The problem is you assume they WOULD be a paying customer. With or without piracy existing,there is no money that would go to the developer.

It is wrong to call it a lost sale. The sale doesn't exists, would not exist if piracy wasn't a thing.
I bet you if no one could pirate games anymore, game sales would go higher.

Stop trying to defend illegal activity, no amount of arguing will make the Courts think stealing is right.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_video_games

I bet you they wouldn't. I bet they'd sty the exact same or increases just like the numbers tell us they have. As piracy has gotten easier and easier game sales have continued to rise from 7-9 top sellers per platform (Sega and Nintendo) to 12-14 Top Sellers (on 3 platforms Nintendo, Sony, and Microsoft)
 

BaronIveagh

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My earlier points got buried in the flood of bull, and ignored, so let me pose this one.

What the game companies are selling is not the game, it's a license to play the game.

By definition, a license (the license itself, not the physical copy) cannot be stolen.

Ergo, piracy is not theft, it's unlicensed use of the game.

If the games companies actually sold copies of the games, then piracy would be theft, but, as the companies themselves have insisted in court, they are not selling the 'game' but rather a license to play that game. Therefor, every time you stop by a friends house and play Super Street Fighter IV Turbo Championship Edition on (insert system here) you are, in fact, committing piracy as it is ALSO unlicensed use of the game.
 

LilithSlave

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Flac00 said:
LilithSlave said:
but in the meantime it means a financial loss for the developer
NO, it does not. That logic is incredibly erroneous.
It means that a product that could have been bought wasn't.
This is a part of why this logic is so erroneous. It does NOT mean a lost sale. It did not mean the person had the chance to buy it, but didn't.

Piracy does not mean not buying. Not buying means not buying. If a person pirates, it does not mean they have the ability to buy that game.

If a person does have the ability to buy a game immediately but instead pirates, you could call that a delayed sale, considering it is most likely they will buy the game eventually. However, much of the time this is not the case. And a lot of the pirating community is children who do not have permission or finances allowed by their parents to buy games very often, minimum wage workers who cannot buy more than a dozen games a year(and therefor have to pirate the rest), or people who already spend $300 or more per month on video games whom simply want to try more than they can afford to fuel their playing and purchasing addiction.

So to put it simply, no, it is not a financial loss for the developer, because it does not mean a product that could have been bought wasn't. Piracy has nothing to do with refusing to buy.
 

Gindil

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ResonanceSD said:
Gindil said:
ResonanceSD said:
Gindil said:


People will pirate anything, including something that has the potential to cost one cent, if it means they don't have to pay for it.


Edit, and the fact that you're equating illegal activity to a market mechanism illustrates the problem the industry has with pirates. Pirates don't know how money works.
On the contrary, they do. They understand that they're underserved customers that the industry is ignoring to try to extrapolate massive amounts of money from them for inferior service.

But you don't have to take my word for it. If you can sit here and argue against Gabe Newell [http://www.gamefront.com/gabe-newell-piracy-is-a-non-issue/] and explain how he's made Russia his second largest market in Europe with copyright, then I'm all ears.
Hah, none of what you've said actually excuses piracy.
Ah, so you're trolling. No one is trying to excuse piracy. It's basically inevitable when companies decide to instill false barriers to content or provide inferior service.
 

LilithSlave

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Luigicheater said:
If you want to steal products from people, fine. Do it.
You know what's more ridiculous than trying to justify an immoral behavior? Telling people it's okay and justified to do something you claim isn't justified. And furthermore, it's ridiculous to try to blame other people who disagree with you of "justifying" their behavior. That's not arguing against someone and their logic, that's just downtalking people you disagree with. There's honestly far too much insulting of anyone not taking an over the top anti-piracy stance and I'm growing quite tired of it.

Luigicheater said:
Just don't justify it as "not theft".
It's not a "justification", it's just quite obviously not theft.
Luigicheater said:
Understand that you are taking something that you did not pay for.
Copying, you mean. It's information.

Luigicheater said:
is acknowledge that it is illegal.
I have never seen anyone, anyone claim that copyright infringement isn't illegal. Anywhere, ever.

It's obvious to anyone who defends or does not defend piracy(copyright infringement) that it is illegal. That doesn't say anything other than law and consequence, though. There have been all sorts of stupid laws in history. It was once illegal to race mix. Saying "it's a crime" doesn't say anything about whether something is moral or ethical or justified or not.

To anyone looking at the fact piracy is illegal as an argument against piracy, might I direct you here?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-miscegenation_laws
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_authority
Sonic Doctor said:
Why does he have to talk about the pro piracy arguments when there shouldn't be any pro piracy arguments in the first place.
There shouldn't be any anti-piracy or pro-scarcity arguments in the first place.

Sonic Doctor said:
It is like talking about convenience store robberies and then somebody telling people that their discussions on how to stop such robberies are invalid because they didn't look at the pros of convenience store robberies.
In what way is copyright infringement remotely similar to a convenience story robbery?

Sonic Doctor said:
In no way is there an argument for that. Even if the people can't get the game in their country, that is just too bad, that is life and it can be unfair.
"Even if people don't think their information should be shared, that is just too bad, that is life and it can be unfair".

Sonic Doctor said:
They don't have to play the game, they don't have a right to play the game.
"They don't have a right to scarcity.

Sonic Doctor said:
There is no counter point to an argument against piracy, because piracy is illegal.
There are plenty of arguments against any argument against piracy. And most arguments against piracy are circular logic. And calling piracy illegal is not an argument against piracy. Just like saying "race mixing" is illegal, in times when race mixing has been illegal, is not an argument against race mixing. What is illegal is not what is wrong, what is legal is not what is right. And claiming that something illegal is not an argument against it.

Sometimes, laws, are, quite simply, wrong. In the past with laws forbidding alcohol possession and race mixing. And today with laws forbidding marijuana possession and many forms of copyright infringement law that are allowed to be upheld.

In the United States, there are flaws with copyright law just as there are flaws with illegal substance law, and was in the past with miscegenation law.
 

psiho333

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I read an article last month about piracy. In Switzerland they did a research that proved (again) that piracy does not reduce sales (or at least, it's impossible to prove otherwise). Moreover, a lot of people get in contact with music / games / movies which they wouldn't be interested into otherwise, making them potential customers for further purchases.

Thus being said, in Switzerland piracy remains legal for personal purposes. As should be everywhere. Period.
 

Gindil

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psiho333 said:
I read an article last month about piracy. In Switzerland they did a research that proved (again) that piracy does not reduce sales (or at least, it's impossible to prove otherwise). Moreover, a lot of people get in contact with music / games / movies which they wouldn't be interested into otherwise, making them potential customers for further purchases.

Thus being said, in Switzerland piracy remains legal for personal purposes. As should be everywhere. Period.
If you want to look at US "piracy" look at how SOPA is the movie industry's failure to innovate [http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/01/sopa-is-a-symbol-of-the-movie-industrys-failure-to-innovate/250967/].

All they want is to destroy the internet for their profits. Copyright law is actually trying to censor people. The same argument can be said about the ESA supporting SOPA (rather ignorant, but that's another story)
 

Chairman Miaow

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buy teh haloz said:
bahumat42 said:
buy teh haloz said:
I can understand the complaints regarding piracy. It absolutely sucks that developers and publishers lose out on sales and all, but I have a couple qualms with this, mostly because he isn't looking through a consumer perspective of things. There are a couple reasons why piracy is prevalent:

1. We don't want to put up with bullshit. We have absolutely no patience for DRM and less so for publishers who have a narrow and close-minded view of PC gaming as a whole. Denying them of a sale seems like a reasonable thing to do when said publisher implements a mechanism that sets out to punish people who purchased the game and inadvertently REWARDS those who pirate the game. It all comes down to the message said publisher conveys, and if the publisher is saying "Fuck you, we don't want your money.", they shouldn't ***** when they're refused a sale in favor of a better functioning pirated copy.

Same applies to those who force a spyware client to run a game (Battlefield 3) and the same applies to those that frequently and traditionally screw consumers over because they live in different territories of the globe (Nintendo and Xenoblade Chronicles). Publisher refuses our money? Okay! Don't come crying and blithely whining "HURF A DURF, PIRACY ARE BAD BECAUSE WE IS LOSING LEGITAMITE SALES. HURRRR DURRRRR"

2. Piracy is a good testing mechanism for PC gamers. We pirate the game, if it runs, HEY GREAT! We can buy the game and enjoy a legitimate copy to enjoy. I mean come on, Battlefield 3 and Crysis 2 are on that list, those are, if anything, heavy duty games that require a really good computer.

3. Piracy helps to justify a purchase. Yes, I know there is a thing called demos, but not a lot of games have them. I'll be the first to admit that I pirated Minecraft, but after playing the pirated copy, I set out to purchase it, knowing that the purchase I made was worth it having played it before and knowing what I was getting myself into. Plus, games are 50+ dollars these days. How do I know whether or not the game I'll be getting is either A: Good, B: Shit, or C: A console/PC port depending on the platform of choice?
i have na answer for three
their called reviews, find someone whose opinion you trust and voila. Couple that with common sense and a little poke around and money spent effectively.
Common sense and money spent effectively, yes. I'll look through LP's on YouTube and play demos if they're available, but reviews? Not really. I usually trust the opinions of my friends who've played the game I want to buy and the User Review board here, but I rarely, if ever, trust professional reviews. The Escapist is an exception, but IGN, GameSpot, and GameTrailers are a few of the sites that I avoid like the plague, as both have a history of over-exaggerating the good and bad and the latter has a history of bias against anything Nintendo or Sony.

And don't, for the love of God, don't mention Metascores and User Reviews on Metacritic.
You trust the escapist on reviews? Don't you remember the whole DA2 thing? "A pinnacle of role-playing games with well-designed mechanics and excellent story-telling, Dragon Age II is what videogames are meant to be". Seriously? But then again, that was written by the same guy who wrote this ridiculously sensationalist piece of crap.