Lawyer Destroys Arguments for Game Piracy

[Magnicon]

snip

From my point of view it is the pirates who wheel out the same ''ignorant garbage'' and link to surveys that have been made by torrent sites (yeah really unbiased). I would find someone photocopying a book abhorrent because then how is the author meant to live exactly? Sure that one author might be wealthy and doing well (he clearly makes enough to subsidise the piracy) but I'd think poorer authors starting out might heavily disagree with you.

Pirates are killing PC gaming and causing more draconian DRM. I blame them every time I have to input three codes just to play online, not the games companies.

I would angry if someone copied and distributed something I'd worked hard on. I can't see people don't understand why it what they are doing is wrong.

Gaming is a luxury not something that is necessary for you to live. If you can't afford it tough luck.

I would angry if someone copied and distributed something I'd worked hard on. I can't see people don't understand why it what they are doing is wrong.

There are actual artists in multiple fields that disagree with you. They do not think its wrong. Links in this thread if you care to be informed.

Pirates are killing PC gaming and causing more draconian DRM.

100% wrong. Again, information made available in this thread. Some of which is from people in the actual gaming industry, not just "biased torrent sites".

Your unwillingness to look at ALL of the information available both makes me sad, and disgusts me. Why even come here and discuss it if you are unwilling to inform yoursef? Pathetic.

 

[Snotnarok]

I currently own almost 200 games on Steam (plus uncounted boxed games, both old and new titles) and I'll admit I have pirated games.

Why have I done it? Titles that look fun but have a dubious feel to it; I usually end up testing for a couple of hours (more or less) then make a decision if I want to acquire it or not based on fun-factor.

Bulletstorm is the lastest I have gotten (Not long after release and I was both horrified and relieved). Horrified at the dullness of it. Relieved that I hadn't spent 40, 50$ bucks for it.

Now, understand that if there were demo versions of those dubious games in the first place I wouldn't even have to download all that data. I would be happy to download a smaller set of the game itself, test it out; the mechanics, the fun I'm having and replayability potential, to finally be able to make a decision based on personal values I find important in a game.

In the last two years I might have downloaded 5-6 games and bought NONE of them. But you know what, I didn't even finish any either. I played a couple of hours, didn't like my experience then uninstalled/deleted the whole thing.

I do not, again, DO NOT, get pirated games because I'm a cheap ass customer. I do it because I want to have fun for the money I'm spending. Nothing else. Sadly, that doesn't represent the state of mind of most "pirates".

You do it because you're a lazy-ass gamer, who puts your own immediate needs ahead of those who actually did the work to make the game.

Case in point: http://www.joystiq.com/2011/04/04/bulletstorm-pc-demo-now-out-on-steam-and-gfwl/

There ARE demo versions, you were just too damned lazy/impatient to bother finding them.

A vast majority of games for PC don't get demos, and if they do they come out far later. Mass Effect 2 for instance got a demo...when the PS3 version came out almost a year later.

And a lot of games for PC lie about the requirements, or just aren't optimized period, some say it's supported but the game is only playable on said platforms after a number of fixes if fixed at all.

Mass Effect 2 for PC still has no first party fix for dual core users, so loading times are nearly 5 times longer unless you find a mod by a fan who fixed their problem.

I'm in no way saying Piracy is okay or whatever, just that if companies took the time to put out a lousy ass demo that they probably wouldn't need to host themselves on their severs they'd see less people needing to test their games.

 

[Glademaster_v1legacy]

Ok fair enough with the IP argument well that is to keep trying. There is no way to tell unless you use an IP where someone is when they pirated the game and this included people who buy pirated copies and these people could go on to buy that game and other games from that company. This is also not foolproof or is it evidence in court to my knowledge. This means we don't know or are never told the numbers of pirates from developing nations versus number of pirates in developed nations. So yes there is that and the size of this group is debatable but you can't deny its existence.

Yes once again there is no evidence that either copy is a lost sale just as there is no evidence all pirates will buy games but I'm sure the number of pirates who aren't a lost sale and would not have bought the game otherwise is a lot higher than the number who would have bought it the game if there was no piracy.

He is dead on about the solution to piracy though as we need to provide more full demos for PC games eg while I know BF3 beta was a light demo we could have done with a demo of the real thing with single player. Beta was better than nothing though.

I do believe someone said that improving the product would improve the pirated version but this is bullshit as the way people want the games improved would bring it in line with the pirated version as no abusive DRM, no logos and what not after first load up unless it is on the initial loading screen. I mean on some games when you go through more than 1 logo screen it starts to take the piss.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

There are actual artists in multiple fields that disagree with you.

Well great for them but if an artist doesn't agree with it they shouldn't be ''robbed'' of their intellectual property...

Where exactly is it proven 100% that piracy doesn't cause DRM?!?

It was invented in the first place to stop pirates....hardly 100% proof in the other direction.

Developers are moving to consoles because they think (whether it's accurate or not) that PC's are too open to piracy.

So thanks for killing my favourite system...

Piracy is completely unjustifiable.

 

[Radelaide]

but in the meantime it means a financial loss for the developer

NO, it does not. That logic is incredibly erroneous.

What? Yes it does! You're getting something for FREE for which you are expected to BUY with money. It's stealing, which means financial loss for the developer.

 

[LilithSlave]

The same thing happens if you go to a library or borrow from a friend. Are playing video games checked out at libraries stealing?

And financial loss means that sales go down. But my understanding, is that if anything, scarcity actually keeps sales down. Not piracy. Therefor, a lack of piracy is a financial loss for the developer.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

The same thing happens if you go to a library or borrow from a friend. Are playing video games checked out at libraries stealing?

No because they are covered by 'within reasonable use' copyright laws. Piracy isn't so therefore it's theft.

 

[Callate]

Piracy does mean lost sales; it's just not a 1-1 ratio, a point that often seems to escape the talking points of so-called "industry spokespeople". Perversely, a wide variety of illegal "free" content for those with no qualms about partaking in it might also lead to lost sales of games the pirate hasn't even downloaded- even a pirate's game time has to be finite, yes?

It's true that many of the arguments of those who "defend" piracy are fallacious and self-serving. But its also true that the methods used to attack piracy are alienating to legitimate consumers, frequently ineffective, and often don't even seem to target the worst culprits. And while a typical American torrenter might simply be lazy and/or unscrupulous, one shouldn't ignore the Eastern European market where sites like GOG were created in part to address a need for a legitimate, low-cost games market, nor places like China where piracy is sometimes the only way for consumers to get western media untouched by state censorship.

I sympathize with the need to combat piracy. But sometimes a bad response is worse than none at all, as SOPA, the Sony CD rootkit debacle, and the blanket lawsuit tactics of groups like the MPAA and the RIAA highlight in flashing neon. We need to keep looking for means to fight piracy, but we also need not to metaphorically "fire blindly" out of frustration with inaction.

 

[LilithSlave]

I just wanted to fix the embed of this post because it is a very good and relevant video.

The embed tags around here are "youtube=" and a single ] instead of youtube] or yt] and /.

 

[applesandoranges]

edit

 

[Superior Mind]

I've never bought the argument for pirates who download games to 'try before they buy'.

The notion that piracy does not equate to lost sales is just as erroneous. "Piracy might result in an eventual purchase of a game, but in the meantime it means a financial loss for the developer," Purewal said. "Sadly developers are not gamer banks, willing to effectively loan gamers money until we decide we like them enough to pay them."

However I disagree with this argument. Gamers pre-purchase games all the time, what this results in is game companies holding your money interest free long before you actually have a product. Is that any better than pirates downloading first and buying later? Not really, despite it being illegal of course. He argues that game companies aren't willing to effectively loan us money until we like a game enough to pay them - well why do they expect us to loan money to them before they've even given us a product?

Not that I'm arguing for piracy, I just think that this is a weak argument given the circumstances.

 

[Krion_Vark]

Saying something like "Yahztee said Skyward Sword is the worst Zelda game ever! Therefor I'm never buying it!" is depriving the developer of profit. Downloading an .iso off the internet is not.

So by the logic of this portion of your post. "Yahztee said Skyward Sword is the worst Zelda game ever! Therefor I'm going to pirate it rather than buy it!" is depraving the developer of profit. You might want to rethink how you word things in favor of piracy.


OT: I am personally not for or against Piracy seeing as how I used to get old games for the PC back in the 90s as pirated versions. But I have actually bought a few of those old games off GoG so there's the pirates will eventually buy the games. Other than that I also now rather than pirate music or anything I make it a point to actually buy the stuff I am a fan of or really want because I don't want to have to deal with stupid bullshit down the line and I really want the things to survive rather than flounder. Games are not movies or music. The developers do not go out and hold concerts or have a bunch of movie theaters around the world showing their product for a fee. They make all of their profit off of the one time purchase the consumer makes it doesn't matter how many people pirate the game it still hurts the developer in the long term. Hell it could even ruin them in the short term and make it so that they cannot make it into the long term. Unlike movies or bands/musicians most games are one and done deals there aren't multiple things coming out for them like music CDs or a later release that you can bring home. There is no secondary option for a lot of games. Its more like OH this game was made by this person. Chances are the next game by them might not be like there last. There aren't actually a lot of good series out there from a lot of developers and that is also another big part of the problem.

There are a lot of issues with the industry but there also needs to be a point where people stop blaming it on the industry that there is this problem. It happens in all mediums. Its that games it just hurts more than any other because music you can pirate one song then go out and buy the cd or past cds or future cds. Movies you can pirate one but then go see the directors next work or the lead actors next role. But with a few developers they get shut down. quite easily.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

I just wanted to fix the embed of this post because it is a very good and relevant video.

The embed tags around here are "youtube=" and a single ] instead of youtube] or yt] and /.

Word of mouth is a whole different issue.

You could watch a let's play or a trailer or something on a game to get an idea of what a game is like just as Gaiman said his poems and suchlike led to people being more interested in his major works.

People DO NOT have to go and download an entire game to get an idea of what it is like and for word of mouth to spread about it.

SOPA is bad because it restricts previously legal word of mouth. We end up with overkill actions like SOPA (effecting people like moviebob showing clips) because pirates download entire copies of films for free.

 

[LilithSlave]

No because they are covered by 'within reasonable use' copyright laws.

That doesn't change the fact that they are getting it for free, making this independent situation directly comparable to borrowing. Either playing a game that costs money for free is fair or it is not. If the fact of playing games that cost money for free is not independently relevant, it is not an argument against piracy.

And a violation of copyright laws is not the same as stealing. It is a violation of copyright to play most Japanese arcade games outside the nation of Japan.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

Either playing a game that costs money for free is fair or it is not.

It's not that black and white I'm afraid. Having someone come over to you house to play a game is legal is it 'reasonable use.' As is lending or giving someone a single copy of a book or game.

Mass distribution of games/books without permission from the owner of the copyright is illegal. You are participating in that illegal action when you download a torrent.

I think it's pretty clear how those two things are different.

 

[LilithSlave]

Yes, it is that "black and white". You're not allowed to scurry over and escape every individual refuted anti-piracy claim because "it's different" in some way not relevant to the individual point. An individual point is an individual point. And if a point can be moved around at any time it is not a coherent point or argument.

Reasonable Use is a legal concept, it describes the law. Not what is moral. A great slew of laws themselves are immoral. To argue that piracy is wrong because it is illegal is an argument to authority logical fallacy.

The claim was that getting for free something that costs money is wrong. All I was doing was refuting that very specific claim. So the difference in legality is irrelevant.

 

[Tumedus]

The same thing happens if you go to a library or borrow from a friend. Are playing video games checked out at libraries stealing?

No because they are covered by 'within reasonable use' copyright laws. Piracy isn't so therefore it's theft.

I don't really wanna get too far into this debate but, assuming you are talking US law, the phrase you are looking for is "fair use" but that does not apply to the situation at all. Fair use basically allows people the right to use limited copies of a work in order to discuss the work. An example is that reviewers have the right to show small clips or stills of something they are critiquing without worry of legal recrimination.

The reason rental and borrowing is allowed falls under the first sale doctrine. Basically, once ownership has been handed over, the user is then able to sell, lend or gift the item as they see fit.

Copying the work for distribution is still against copyright law, however, (in the US anyway) and is why piracy is considered illegal.


Beyond that, while I don't advocate breaking the law, I have seen this same debate rage on and on during and even prior to my life. People thought radio was piracy. Some still do. People lambasted cassette tapes and dual cassette recorders as the same type of theft but it actually resulted in a huge surge in the music industry's popularity and sales. Now people have moved on to digital property.

Call it stealing or don't, it really doesn't matter to me. Fighting it is futile, however. The companies or industries that have learned how to monetize it are the ones that are doing well and will be the giants of the next generation. The ones that fight a losing battle against human nature will suffer the same fate every other company that failed to adapt to a changing marketplace; they will wither and die.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

snip

I'm talking about UK law. As far as I know, although it may have changed since I had experience with it, reasonable use covers lending and borrowing which is why I referred to it.

I can complain about piracy until I'm blue in the face though and like you said nothing will change. Theft and greed are human nature like you said.

What I hate however is the refusal of pirates to recognise their responsibility in causing DRM and things like SOPA. It annoys me that they don't think they could possibly be having a negative effect on other peoples lives.

getting for free something that costs money is wrong.

No it isn't but if someone does it in mass or for profit it is wrong. I'm not sure why you can't distinguish between something that is clearly out of line ie: mass distributing someone else's product and just lending something to a friend.

They aren't the same thing and I think you know that.

To me it's morally okay to lend to a friend but immoral to ''steal'' a whole game off the net. Legal or no.

 

[Jingle Fett]

The notion that piracy does not equate to lost sales is just as erroneous. "Piracy might result in an eventual purchase of a game, but in the meantime it means a financial loss for the developer," Purewal said. "Sadly developers are not gamer banks, willing to effectively loan gamers money until we decide we like them enough to pay them."

I take issue with this because it's not necessarily true. I mean it is in the sense that the developers don't get cold hard cash upfront directly. However, it does not mean that developers don't get their just compensation in other ways. For example, high piracy is a good measure of popularity; it means people...like the game. Word of mouth is one result of that. Furthermore, people who enjoy and regularly play a game are more likely to buy skins and map packs and stuff, the developers just need to cash in on that. Thirdly...some of the most successful business models are the free to play ones.

Example: Team Fortress HATS (srsly, friggin hats?). Yet they're practically printing money..
Example: League of Legends characters/skins/etc.
Example: Games like Mafia Wars, Farmville, etc.
Another example is the game engine Unity. It was pretty good but it literally exploded when it's indie version became free (free for commercial use too). Now they're one of Unreal's major competitors.

So while piracy may or may not equate to a lost sale, it doesn't mean the developer can't still make major profit off it.

One last theoretical example: Suppose Star Wars never made a profit in the movie theaters and VHS/DVD due to piracy. Would George Lucas have gone broke? No because even if he didn't make a penny off the movies he more than made up for it in merchandising. Merchandising, where the real money is made!

 

[Memoriae]

Ugh pirates choose arguments they know can't be proven or dis-proven. No one can say they would have bought it otherwise although in a lot of cases they would have I think... Think about the people waiting for Skyrim or COD for example.

To me piracy is like walking into a bookstore, photocopying a book and walking out with it, sounds absurd right?

The 'no demo' and ineffectual reviewing defence is better but the fact is that you can still rent games. Got no pennies? Then go to a rental system online and just rent them and see if you like them rather than downloading torrents.

I can understand why companies see this sort of thing as a lost sale, why on earth would you buy a game you have already played through for free?

I'd just like to throw this in here. I do have a rental subscription. And it's saved me approximately £2000 in games, just in the last 6 months, yet I still find myself occasionally firing up the Pirate Bay.

Why?

Because you cannot rent PC games.

While this argument probably will just be ignored by the majority of people, I will put myself on the record as saying that I do torrent games. And the last one I did?

Borderlands.

The last game I bought?

Borderlands, technically Supreme Commander 2 (Which I bought because I play SC1 to death. SC2 sucked enough to generate Cherenkov radiation), because that was swiped after Borderlands. (if you don't count pre-ordering ME3).

Maybe I'm one of those who just like buying things I've already "stolen" (if the mouthpieces in here are to be believed). So yes, I stole the Mona Lisa, left a shitty replica in its place. But I also then left a cheque for £80m (or whatever its valued at) stuck in the back of the frame.


And the argument that because I have it and didn't pay for it, so I shouldn't have it?
What if I have someone stay over, who leaves a game behind, then says "oh, I'll pick it up next time"? I didn't pay for it, and I have it, and I'll sure as hell play it. So apparently I stole that too, despite the owner of said disc knowing where it is, what I'll do with it, and that they will get it back?