Lawyer Destroys Arguments for Game Piracy

LilithSlave

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xXxJessicaxXx said:
No because they are covered by 'within reasonable use' copyright laws.
That doesn't change the fact that they are getting it for free, making this independent situation directly comparable to borrowing. Either playing a game that costs money for free is fair or it is not. If the fact of playing games that cost money for free is not independently relevant, it is not an argument against piracy.

And a violation of copyright laws is not the same as stealing. It is a violation of copyright to play most Japanese arcade games outside the nation of Japan.
 

Moonlight Butterfly

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Mar 16, 2011
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LilithSlave said:
Either playing a game that costs money for free is fair or it is not.
It's not that black and white I'm afraid. Having someone come over to you house to play a game is legal is it 'reasonable use.' As is lending or giving someone a single copy of a book or game.

Mass distribution of games/books without permission from the owner of the copyright is illegal. You are participating in that illegal action when you download a torrent.

I think it's pretty clear how those two things are different.
 

LilithSlave

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Yes, it is that "black and white". You're not allowed to scurry over and escape every individual refuted anti-piracy claim because "it's different" in some way not relevant to the individual point. An individual point is an individual point. And if a point can be moved around at any time it is not a coherent point or argument.

Reasonable Use is a legal concept, it describes the law. Not what is moral. A great slew of laws themselves are immoral. To argue that piracy is wrong because it is illegal is an argument to authority logical fallacy.

The claim was that getting for free something that costs money is wrong. All I was doing was refuting that very specific claim. So the difference in legality is irrelevant.
 

Tumedus

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xXxJessicaxXx said:
LilithSlave said:
The same thing happens if you go to a library or borrow from a friend. Are playing video games checked out at libraries stealing?
No because they are covered by 'within reasonable use' copyright laws. Piracy isn't so therefore it's theft.
I don't really wanna get too far into this debate but, assuming you are talking US law, the phrase you are looking for is "fair use" but that does not apply to the situation at all. Fair use basically allows people the right to use limited copies of a work in order to discuss the work. An example is that reviewers have the right to show small clips or stills of something they are critiquing without worry of legal recrimination.

The reason rental and borrowing is allowed falls under the first sale doctrine. Basically, once ownership has been handed over, the user is then able to sell, lend or gift the item as they see fit.

Copying the work for distribution is still against copyright law, however, (in the US anyway) and is why piracy is considered illegal.


Beyond that, while I don't advocate breaking the law, I have seen this same debate rage on and on during and even prior to my life. People thought radio was piracy. Some still do. People lambasted cassette tapes and dual cassette recorders as the same type of theft but it actually resulted in a huge surge in the music industry's popularity and sales. Now people have moved on to digital property.

Call it stealing or don't, it really doesn't matter to me. Fighting it is futile, however. The companies or industries that have learned how to monetize it are the ones that are doing well and will be the giants of the next generation. The ones that fight a losing battle against human nature will suffer the same fate every other company that failed to adapt to a changing marketplace; they will wither and die.
 

Moonlight Butterfly

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Tumedus said:
I'm talking about UK law. As far as I know, although it may have changed since I had experience with it, reasonable use covers lending and borrowing which is why I referred to it.

I can complain about piracy until I'm blue in the face though and like you said nothing will change. Theft and greed are human nature like you said.

What I hate however is the refusal of pirates to recognise their responsibility in causing DRM and things like SOPA. It annoys me that they don't think they could possibly be having a negative effect on other peoples lives.

LilithSlave said:
getting for free something that costs money is wrong.
No it isn't but if someone does it in mass or for profit it is wrong. I'm not sure why you can't distinguish between something that is clearly out of line ie: mass distributing someone else's product and just lending something to a friend.

They aren't the same thing and I think you know that.

To me it's morally okay to lend to a friend but immoral to ''steal'' a whole game off the net. Legal or no.
 

Jingle Fett

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The notion that piracy does not equate to lost sales is just as erroneous. "Piracy might result in an eventual purchase of a game, but in the meantime it means a financial loss for the developer," Purewal said. "Sadly developers are not gamer banks, willing to effectively loan gamers money until we decide we like them enough to pay them."
I take issue with this because it's not necessarily true. I mean it is in the sense that the developers don't get cold hard cash upfront directly. However, it does not mean that developers don't get their just compensation in other ways. For example, high piracy is a good measure of popularity; it means people...like the game. Word of mouth is one result of that. Furthermore, people who enjoy and regularly play a game are more likely to buy skins and map packs and stuff, the developers just need to cash in on that. Thirdly...some of the most successful business models are the free to play ones.

Example: Team Fortress HATS (srsly, friggin hats?). Yet they're practically printing money..
Example: League of Legends characters/skins/etc.
Example: Games like Mafia Wars, Farmville, etc.
Another example is the game engine Unity. It was pretty good but it literally exploded when it's indie version became free (free for commercial use too). Now they're one of Unreal's major competitors.

So while piracy may or may not equate to a lost sale, it doesn't mean the developer can't still make major profit off it.

One last theoretical example: Suppose Star Wars never made a profit in the movie theaters and VHS/DVD due to piracy. Would George Lucas have gone broke? No because even if he didn't make a penny off the movies he more than made up for it in merchandising. Merchandising, where the real money is made!
 

Memoriae

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xXxJessicaxXx said:
Ugh pirates choose arguments they know can't be proven or dis-proven. No one can say they would have bought it otherwise although in a lot of cases they would have I think... Think about the people waiting for Skyrim or COD for example.

To me piracy is like walking into a bookstore, photocopying a book and walking out with it, sounds absurd right?

The 'no demo' and ineffectual reviewing defence is better but the fact is that you can still rent games. Got no pennies? Then go to a rental system online and just rent them and see if you like them rather than downloading torrents.

I can understand why companies see this sort of thing as a lost sale, why on earth would you buy a game you have already played through for free?
I'd just like to throw this in here. I do have a rental subscription. And it's saved me approximately £2000 in games, just in the last 6 months, yet I still find myself occasionally firing up the Pirate Bay.

Why?

Because you cannot rent PC games.

While this argument probably will just be ignored by the majority of people, I will put myself on the record as saying that I do torrent games. And the last one I did?

Borderlands.

The last game I bought?

Borderlands, technically Supreme Commander 2 (Which I bought because I play SC1 to death. SC2 sucked enough to generate Cherenkov radiation), because that was swiped after Borderlands. (if you don't count pre-ordering ME3).

Maybe I'm one of those who just like buying things I've already "stolen" (if the mouthpieces in here are to be believed). So yes, I stole the Mona Lisa, left a shitty replica in its place. But I also then left a cheque for £80m (or whatever its valued at) stuck in the back of the frame.


And the argument that because I have it and didn't pay for it, so I shouldn't have it?
What if I have someone stay over, who leaves a game behind, then says "oh, I'll pick it up next time"? I didn't pay for it, and I have it, and I'll sure as hell play it. So apparently I stole that too, despite the owner of said disc knowing where it is, what I'll do with it, and that they will get it back?
 

Naeo

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As has been pointed out, this guy didn't really "destroy" the arguments for piracy. Pointed out flaws, yes, but hardly destroyed.

For example: the implication that every pirated game is a lost sale. No, not every one of them. A lot of them, yes, are lost sales. If the game weren't available for pirating, the people who really want it would go buy it. But honestly, the majority of people pirating stuff are frequently college age or younger, and we've grown up in a world where everything is one Google search away from a torrent or a download link, so to a lot of people my age, that's just part of how the world works. And after all, why pay when you can get something for free? You can twist rhetoric and logic to say that because they have the means to get something for free, of course they won't pay for it. But this is circular, as piracy is required to provide a free way to get games to justify pirating them. So in other words, that argument comes down to "piracy justifies piracy". Anyways. If somehow pirated games didn't exist, a lot of these people still want the games badly enough to either shell out the full list price for it or wait for it to go on sale on Steam or to come down in price or what have you. It's the exact same reasoning behind why you buy generic drugs rather than brand name--there's a cheaper alternative. It doesn't mean you wouldn't buy the brand name drugs, but there's no reason why you shouldn't save a few bucks. Same reasoning applies to a lot of pirates--"well yeah, I could buy it, but I could save a few bucks doing this instead." Yeah, there are some people who are just "HRRRNG NO I WOULD NOT EVER WANT TO BUY THIS GAME but I will totally pirate it and enjoy the fuck out of it without compensating the developers". They're not as much of an overwhelming majority as people want to think.

As for DRM and such, there are, to me, three ways to do it. The first is restrictions on accessibility, like requiring a valid Steam or Origin login or having online passes or some sort of bulky program to constantly monitor the game itself. The former--requiring a valid login for something--is effective, because it's not cumbersome on the player and the majority of PC gamers already have a Steam account and/or an Origin account. Online passes are just a nuisance, and I imagine effective at blocking online play for pirates but I don't have any actual gauge for its effectiveness, so that's mere speculation. The third type of this is what everyone hates, because oftentimes it directly and severely impacts gameplay for legitimate customers, while pirates who crack the game to remove that coding get a smoother experience. There is frankly no excuse for this sort of DRM, but that doesn't in any way count as a justification for pirating something. The second type: do what Serious Sam 3 or Dark Souls or Arkham Asylum did, and have a gameplay element change or be introduced (like the invincible scorpion in SS3) that makes progression in the game difficult or impossible. No idea how effective this is or how easy it is to remove something like this from a cracked copy, though. And the last type of DRM is "none," which is wildly ineffective because, as The Wither 2 proved, on the whole pirates don't give a rat's ass about how much DRM affects legitimate players, because no DRM makes it infinitely more easy to pirate something.

On the whole, as you may have noticed, I very much despise piracy and people who try to justify it. Ultimately, it removes incentive for people to keep doing work, decreases industry innovation (see Jim Sterling's article on casual gamers, where he explains this point in more depth), and is just plain selfish. After all, debate morals all you like, piracy is very explicitly illegal, and deciding "oh but I want this" and proceeding to break the law is just plain immature and stupid. Rule of Law, people. You don't get to pick and choose what laws you follow.
 

tzimize

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Mar 1, 2010
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Colinmac93 said:
Never mind his argument, it's a lawyer who doesn't seem to hate games!
/fanfare
:D

From the opening post:
"The notion that piracy does not equate to lost sales is just as erroneous. "Piracy might result in an eventual purchase of a game, but in the meantime it means a financial loss for the developer," Purewal said. "Sadly developers are not gamer banks, willing to effectively loan gamers money until we decide we like them enough to pay them.""

How the fuck is it erroneous? How is a pirated game a financial loss? Its DREAM MONEY. The developer is not missing a game (unless its physically stolen from the shelf), there is absolutely no guarantee that the gamer would have purchased the game if he didnt pirate it. Its MAKE BELIEVE.

One can discuss the morality of it past the end of forever, but no amount of college-years or lawyer education is going to change the FACT that a pirated game is NOT a financial loss. Its a THEORETICAL loss...but nothing more.

If one starts to pull numbers out of ones ass...how much free PR does a pirate provide? Downloading a game...telling all his friends, this is the best game ever...they buy it...they tell their friends et cetera. How much money is this? Maybe its not a financial loss at all, maybe the game industry owes pirates money. And lots of it!
 

Treblaine

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Jul 25, 2008
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I am not in favour of Piracy.

I am simply against "Anti-piracy" efforts that hurt legitimate consumers more than the actual perpetrators!

Oppressive DRM can kill your sales FAR worse than piracy, mostly because even with people turned away by the inconvenience of DRM preventing games they paid for working, it's a matter of time before the DRM can be cracked and then the bootleg version is the better version.

THAT is the insidious thing about gaming piracy. All throughout the history of people making and illegally selling bootleg copies of things, the strongest argument against the bootleg is that it is:
-lower quality
-less reliable
-less durable
-Still have to pay with no guarantee

But the OPPOSITE is true with software piracy as crippling the DRM you have a version which will work more reliably and being digital the quality is identical and may even be better if it is cracked for more convenient rendering modes.

I think the solution to piracy is not DRM (in the traditional sense) but smaller and more reliable lawsuits against pirates. Suits me fine. Well, almost fine:

(Also, I think there should be a clause that if a game has been out of print for 5 years and NO ONE is selling a digital copy then it should have a greatly reduced penalty for piracy. For example Microsoft is flatly refusing to digitally nor Disc-copy sell Halo on PC to anyone anywhere, they are trying to retcon gaming history as if Halo was only ever released on consoles. As you could make the case that there is no lost-sale as the owners of the rights are refusing to sell it anyway, copyright law should account for sales. So you can't copyright something then refuse to sell a single new copy for over a decade!)
 
Aug 1, 2010
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DISCLAIMER: I do not support piracy. I have never pirated. I am only stating opinion, Blah blah blah.

I would really like to know the purpose for the posting of this.

First of all, just because he is a lawyer doesn't mean he knows everything everywhere. He can still make grievous mistakes.

Second, any nerd could tell you there IS evidence to support that most pirates use proxies as pirates are typically very adept computer users.

Third, you can't simply say "Every torrent IS a lost sale. Period." You need something to back it up.

Fourth, and most important, you can't stop piracy. You simply can't. No matter how many people you sue, no matter what laws you enact, people will continue to steal things digitally. In addition, any effective means of reducing it would have a horrible effect on people at large. So in reality, it comes down to a choice between a large number of people giving up a massive number of freedoms of privacy OR companies losing money

And just because I like giving, here is a video:
Great video, just felt like the time to post it.