Lawyer Destroys Arguments for Game Piracy

[Amnestic]

I saw no link to the study. No link, it never happened.

Post #165 (Page 5) of this thread:

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/114537-File-sharing-Remains-Legal-In-Switzerland

To quote the study (emphasis mine)...

"However, these people don't spend less money as a result because the budgets they reserve for entertainment are fairly constant. This means that downloading is mostly complementary.

The other side of piracy, based on the Dutch study, is that downloaders are reported to be more frequent visitors to concerts, and game downloaders actually bought more games than those who didn't."
Good day, sir.

It was on the last page. If you didn't see it, you weren't looking.

Copyright infringement is the tech-savvy version of stealing then, I guess I should put on my coke rims, beret and liquid pretensiousness to keep up.

No, they're two decidedly different things, which is why they legally aren't the same thing. You really think that the law decided to differentiate just to be 'pretentious'? Laughable. The law is different because the situation is different. Copyright Infringement=/=Theft. Is that so hard to understand? Is it 'right'? No, probably not, but if we're going to discuss an issue let's actually discuss it.

 

[sniddy_v1legacy]

Agreed. By your logic, when I go see a movie the most sensible thing to do is to sneak in and watch the first half or maybe the whole movie before I make a decision regarding whether or not I want to pay to see the movie, then going to the box office and buying a ticket afterwards.

You know what - there are times I really wish this WAS an option. We all know trailers lie. So some films have sucked, and I feel robbed.

With games I don't face that I can....in this order
1) Borrow a friends copy
2) Pirate a full copy and play for a while...then decide or
3) play a demo.

Note - I will generally pirate over demos as I'd rather see the whole picture first - not a 'here's what we want you to see' and I will generally use a demo if I'm pretty sure on NOT wanting a game, the demo is then a quick 'taster' or if I'm feeling lazy and a demo is readily available.

To be fair I'm really picky on buying games, I may get half a dozen a year - but I enjoy all of them. I'm starting to get out to less and less films and just wait a few years for Sky (satellite TV) to show them

 

[LilithSlave]

So you're suggesting there's no financial loss from putting money into the game and not seeing a return on all the people who consume it?

No, and that is something that exists without piracy via having friends with games, libraries, used games, and so on and so forth.

I do not believe there is a financial loss because I believe that a person's interest in buying is highly related to an emotional investment in that thing. For all we attack "fanboys", they're a natural occurrence and wonderful thing for the industry. People playing and enjoying video games leads to an emotional investment in video games, and therefor, a greater desire to spend personal resources on the hobby. People playing and enjoying a certain franchise or genre, leads to an emotional investment in said franchise or genre, and therefor, a greater desire to spend personal resources on the hobby. Leading even sometimes to people like Pikabellachu.

We're living in a society of addiction to media. All of varying degrees. And also a society covered in free media offered legally for free. Free media that people often choose to buy(Cave Story, Eversion ect.). A lack of interest is more dangerous than piracy. In other words, what creates a loss of sale is not people pirating games, it's people not being interested enough in them to play them to begin with.

Piracy, if anything, is a benefit because it keeps games relevant and interesting without any initial investment and gamble for the consumer. But a hobby that generally decreases their better judgement and maturity against spending money they don't have.

Not only do I think there's not financial loss from being pirated. I think there's far more financial loss from not being pirated at all. If piracy somehow magically disappeared altogether, video game interest and video game sales would show a decline.

 

[Delicious Anathema]

1. Make games 30?/£/$ whatever new, money is hard to come by to play an hobby.

2. Provide valid motivation to not pirate (free DLC, good online service)

3. Use cartridges with flash memory.

 

[Magnicon]

Ugh pirates choose arguments they know can't be proven or dis-proven. No one can say they would have bought it otherwise although in a lot of cases they would have I think... Think about the people waiting for Skyrim or COD for example.

To me piracy is like walking into a bookstore, photocopying a book and walking out with it, sounds absurd right?

The 'no demo' and ineffectual reviewing defence is better but the fact is that you can still rent games. Got no pennies? Then go to a rental system online and just rent them and see if you like them rather than downloading torrents.

I can understand why companies see this sort of thing as a lost sale, why on earth would you buy a game you have already played through for free?

I'm sorry, but are you purposefully trying to continue to be ignorant on this subject?

Ugh pirates choose arguments they know can't be proven or dis-proven.

This is wrong. There have been multiple links in this very thread showing that. You might want to check them out.

Whats also interesting about this, is that the entertainment industry has NEVER provided one single argument that could ever be proven, because its 100% based on assumption. The worst possible assumption they could possibly make that supports their side of the argument. Again, assumptions that have been proven wrong. Links in this thread.

To me piracy is like walking into a bookstore, photocopying a book and walking out with it, sounds absurd right?

Actually a valid comparison. Is it a bad thing though? There is at least one world famous novelist that thinks its ok, and has proven that it increased his sales/profits. Link in this thread.

The 'no demo' and ineffectual reviewing defence is better but the fact is that you can still rent games. Got no pennies? Then go to a rental system online and just rent them and see if you like them rather than downloading torrents.

Interesting. Did you know that most of the gaming industry is largely against all form of game rental? Some of them even think its significantly worse then piracy.

I can understand why companies see this sort of thing as a lost sale, why on earth would you buy a game you have already played through for free?

Why would people buy something they torrented? Lots of reasons that have been outlined in this thread, and many others on this site that I have seen you post in. I'm confused though how you missed them all. Or you just ignored them and continue to say the same thing. The fact of the matter is that a LOT of gamers torrent things first, then buy them later. Which is part of the reason why piracy increases profits. Again, links in this thread about it.

Its seriously getting old seeing the same people repeat the same ignorant garbage over and over on this site. So much information has been provided by people in and out of the industry that prove that piracy does not negatively effect profits, and in fact increases it. Stop being a blind "right fighter" and read some of the information. You just come off like a kid with fingers in their ears "lalalalala".

Sharing of intellectual property is, always has been, and always will be a part of the system. A good part. Not my opinion. Proven fact.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

snip

From my point of view it is the pirates who wheel out the same ''ignorant garbage'' and link to surveys that have been made by torrent sites (yeah really unbiased). I would find someone photocopying a book abhorrent because then how is the author meant to live exactly? Sure that one author might be wealthy and doing well (he clearly makes enough to subsidise the piracy) but I'd think poorer authors starting out might heavily disagree with you.

Pirates are killing PC gaming and causing more draconian DRM. I blame them every time I have to input three codes just to play online, not the games companies.

I would angry if someone copied and distributed something I'd worked hard on. I can't see people don't understand why it what they are doing is wrong.

Gaming is a luxury not something that is necessary for you to live. If you can't afford it tough luck.

 

[Magnicon]

snip

From my point of view it is the pirates who wheel out the same ''ignorant garbage'' and link to surveys that have been made by torrent sites (yeah really unbiased). I would find someone photocopying a book abhorrent because then how is the author meant to live exactly? Sure that one author might be wealthy and doing well (he clearly makes enough to subsidise the piracy) but I'd think poorer authors starting out might heavily disagree with you.

Pirates are killing PC gaming and causing more draconian DRM. I blame them every time I have to input three codes just to play online, not the games companies.

I would angry if someone copied and distributed something I'd worked hard on. I can't see people don't understand why it what they are doing is wrong.

Gaming is a luxury not something that is necessary for you to live. If you can't afford it tough luck.

I would angry if someone copied and distributed something I'd worked hard on. I can't see people don't understand why it what they are doing is wrong.

There are actual artists in multiple fields that disagree with you. They do not think its wrong. Links in this thread if you care to be informed.

Pirates are killing PC gaming and causing more draconian DRM.

100% wrong. Again, information made available in this thread. Some of which is from people in the actual gaming industry, not just "biased torrent sites".

Your unwillingness to look at ALL of the information available both makes me sad, and disgusts me. Why even come here and discuss it if you are unwilling to inform yoursef? Pathetic.

 

[Snotnarok]

I currently own almost 200 games on Steam (plus uncounted boxed games, both old and new titles) and I'll admit I have pirated games.

Why have I done it? Titles that look fun but have a dubious feel to it; I usually end up testing for a couple of hours (more or less) then make a decision if I want to acquire it or not based on fun-factor.

Bulletstorm is the lastest I have gotten (Not long after release and I was both horrified and relieved). Horrified at the dullness of it. Relieved that I hadn't spent 40, 50$ bucks for it.

Now, understand that if there were demo versions of those dubious games in the first place I wouldn't even have to download all that data. I would be happy to download a smaller set of the game itself, test it out; the mechanics, the fun I'm having and replayability potential, to finally be able to make a decision based on personal values I find important in a game.

In the last two years I might have downloaded 5-6 games and bought NONE of them. But you know what, I didn't even finish any either. I played a couple of hours, didn't like my experience then uninstalled/deleted the whole thing.

I do not, again, DO NOT, get pirated games because I'm a cheap ass customer. I do it because I want to have fun for the money I'm spending. Nothing else. Sadly, that doesn't represent the state of mind of most "pirates".

You do it because you're a lazy-ass gamer, who puts your own immediate needs ahead of those who actually did the work to make the game.

Case in point: http://www.joystiq.com/2011/04/04/bulletstorm-pc-demo-now-out-on-steam-and-gfwl/

There ARE demo versions, you were just too damned lazy/impatient to bother finding them.

A vast majority of games for PC don't get demos, and if they do they come out far later. Mass Effect 2 for instance got a demo...when the PS3 version came out almost a year later.

And a lot of games for PC lie about the requirements, or just aren't optimized period, some say it's supported but the game is only playable on said platforms after a number of fixes if fixed at all.

Mass Effect 2 for PC still has no first party fix for dual core users, so loading times are nearly 5 times longer unless you find a mod by a fan who fixed their problem.

I'm in no way saying Piracy is okay or whatever, just that if companies took the time to put out a lousy ass demo that they probably wouldn't need to host themselves on their severs they'd see less people needing to test their games.

 

[Glademaster_v1legacy]

Ok fair enough with the IP argument well that is to keep trying. There is no way to tell unless you use an IP where someone is when they pirated the game and this included people who buy pirated copies and these people could go on to buy that game and other games from that company. This is also not foolproof or is it evidence in court to my knowledge. This means we don't know or are never told the numbers of pirates from developing nations versus number of pirates in developed nations. So yes there is that and the size of this group is debatable but you can't deny its existence.

Yes once again there is no evidence that either copy is a lost sale just as there is no evidence all pirates will buy games but I'm sure the number of pirates who aren't a lost sale and would not have bought the game otherwise is a lot higher than the number who would have bought it the game if there was no piracy.

He is dead on about the solution to piracy though as we need to provide more full demos for PC games eg while I know BF3 beta was a light demo we could have done with a demo of the real thing with single player. Beta was better than nothing though.

I do believe someone said that improving the product would improve the pirated version but this is bullshit as the way people want the games improved would bring it in line with the pirated version as no abusive DRM, no logos and what not after first load up unless it is on the initial loading screen. I mean on some games when you go through more than 1 logo screen it starts to take the piss.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

There are actual artists in multiple fields that disagree with you.

Well great for them but if an artist doesn't agree with it they shouldn't be ''robbed'' of their intellectual property...

Where exactly is it proven 100% that piracy doesn't cause DRM?!?

It was invented in the first place to stop pirates....hardly 100% proof in the other direction.

Developers are moving to consoles because they think (whether it's accurate or not) that PC's are too open to piracy.

So thanks for killing my favourite system...

Piracy is completely unjustifiable.

 

[Radelaide]

but in the meantime it means a financial loss for the developer

NO, it does not. That logic is incredibly erroneous.

What? Yes it does! You're getting something for FREE for which you are expected to BUY with money. It's stealing, which means financial loss for the developer.

 

[LilithSlave]

The same thing happens if you go to a library or borrow from a friend. Are playing video games checked out at libraries stealing?

And financial loss means that sales go down. But my understanding, is that if anything, scarcity actually keeps sales down. Not piracy. Therefor, a lack of piracy is a financial loss for the developer.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

The same thing happens if you go to a library or borrow from a friend. Are playing video games checked out at libraries stealing?

No because they are covered by 'within reasonable use' copyright laws. Piracy isn't so therefore it's theft.

 

[Callate]

Piracy does mean lost sales; it's just not a 1-1 ratio, a point that often seems to escape the talking points of so-called "industry spokespeople". Perversely, a wide variety of illegal "free" content for those with no qualms about partaking in it might also lead to lost sales of games the pirate hasn't even downloaded- even a pirate's game time has to be finite, yes?

It's true that many of the arguments of those who "defend" piracy are fallacious and self-serving. But its also true that the methods used to attack piracy are alienating to legitimate consumers, frequently ineffective, and often don't even seem to target the worst culprits. And while a typical American torrenter might simply be lazy and/or unscrupulous, one shouldn't ignore the Eastern European market where sites like GOG were created in part to address a need for a legitimate, low-cost games market, nor places like China where piracy is sometimes the only way for consumers to get western media untouched by state censorship.

I sympathize with the need to combat piracy. But sometimes a bad response is worse than none at all, as SOPA, the Sony CD rootkit debacle, and the blanket lawsuit tactics of groups like the MPAA and the RIAA highlight in flashing neon. We need to keep looking for means to fight piracy, but we also need not to metaphorically "fire blindly" out of frustration with inaction.

 

[LilithSlave]

I just wanted to fix the embed of this post because it is a very good and relevant video.

The embed tags around here are "youtube=" and a single ] instead of youtube] or yt] and /.

 

[applesandoranges]

edit

 

[Superior Mind]

I've never bought the argument for pirates who download games to 'try before they buy'.

The notion that piracy does not equate to lost sales is just as erroneous. "Piracy might result in an eventual purchase of a game, but in the meantime it means a financial loss for the developer," Purewal said. "Sadly developers are not gamer banks, willing to effectively loan gamers money until we decide we like them enough to pay them."

However I disagree with this argument. Gamers pre-purchase games all the time, what this results in is game companies holding your money interest free long before you actually have a product. Is that any better than pirates downloading first and buying later? Not really, despite it being illegal of course. He argues that game companies aren't willing to effectively loan us money until we like a game enough to pay them - well why do they expect us to loan money to them before they've even given us a product?

Not that I'm arguing for piracy, I just think that this is a weak argument given the circumstances.

 

[Krion_Vark]

Saying something like "Yahztee said Skyward Sword is the worst Zelda game ever! Therefor I'm never buying it!" is depriving the developer of profit. Downloading an .iso off the internet is not.

So by the logic of this portion of your post. "Yahztee said Skyward Sword is the worst Zelda game ever! Therefor I'm going to pirate it rather than buy it!" is depraving the developer of profit. You might want to rethink how you word things in favor of piracy.


OT: I am personally not for or against Piracy seeing as how I used to get old games for the PC back in the 90s as pirated versions. But I have actually bought a few of those old games off GoG so there's the pirates will eventually buy the games. Other than that I also now rather than pirate music or anything I make it a point to actually buy the stuff I am a fan of or really want because I don't want to have to deal with stupid bullshit down the line and I really want the things to survive rather than flounder. Games are not movies or music. The developers do not go out and hold concerts or have a bunch of movie theaters around the world showing their product for a fee. They make all of their profit off of the one time purchase the consumer makes it doesn't matter how many people pirate the game it still hurts the developer in the long term. Hell it could even ruin them in the short term and make it so that they cannot make it into the long term. Unlike movies or bands/musicians most games are one and done deals there aren't multiple things coming out for them like music CDs or a later release that you can bring home. There is no secondary option for a lot of games. Its more like OH this game was made by this person. Chances are the next game by them might not be like there last. There aren't actually a lot of good series out there from a lot of developers and that is also another big part of the problem.

There are a lot of issues with the industry but there also needs to be a point where people stop blaming it on the industry that there is this problem. It happens in all mediums. Its that games it just hurts more than any other because music you can pirate one song then go out and buy the cd or past cds or future cds. Movies you can pirate one but then go see the directors next work or the lead actors next role. But with a few developers they get shut down. quite easily.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

I just wanted to fix the embed of this post because it is a very good and relevant video.

The embed tags around here are "youtube=" and a single ] instead of youtube] or yt] and /.

Word of mouth is a whole different issue.

You could watch a let's play or a trailer or something on a game to get an idea of what a game is like just as Gaiman said his poems and suchlike led to people being more interested in his major works.

People DO NOT have to go and download an entire game to get an idea of what it is like and for word of mouth to spread about it.

SOPA is bad because it restricts previously legal word of mouth. We end up with overkill actions like SOPA (effecting people like moviebob showing clips) because pirates download entire copies of films for free.