Left 4 Dead 2 Ban Surprised, Saddened Valve
- Thread starter Keane Ng
- Start date
What the fuck, Australia?
They used to be the most rugged and individualistic people that side of the Atlantic.
Now they've got government censorship that would turn the FCC blue with envy.
They used to be the most rugged and individualistic people that side of the Atlantic.
Now they've got government censorship that would turn the FCC blue with envy.
Yes. because getting arrested really sells video games.Therumancer said:
I'm glad you were able to do that. I still don't see the need for a gaming company to try and spark a revolution.Therumancer said:
.....So you're wanting to give them a *REASON* to ban video games? Really? Congratulations. You've gone from being angry over a game being banned straight into criminal actions.Therumancer said:
Yes lets go out and kidnap young innocents in the attempt to intimidate people. We'd totally have the best PR availible, And on top of it, we could get rid of some of the idiots in our company! Hey, Edward from Accounting that missed that tax writeoff. Go grab that sweet little kid and hold her for a while. Now he's arrested, and we can fire him legitimately.Therumancer said:
Its not to keep 'fear'....Lets be quite honest shall we? People with rifles are going to do shit, Against a bloody tank. (yes. I'm American and use bloody.) It was originally supposed to be like that. But now a days where we have airplanes that can zoom over someplace and carpet bomb the crap out of it. Lets face it. Our pistols, our rifles, and our 'stockpiles of weapons' are going to do absolutely nothing. Are you *REALLY* trying to make this into a real argument? If so you're acting childish at best, and idiotic at worst. "THEY WON'T GIVE THEM SOMETHING! THEY NEED TO GROW A PAIR AND START THREATENING PEOPLE!"Therumancer said:
The *IRONY*. You're saying that the Australian people are COWARDS. They live on a continent where everything wants to kill them! You're saying they're cowards for not going straight into full 'rebellion' mode. OVER A GOD DAMNED VIDEO GAME. PLEASE. WAKE UP. I BEG OF YOU.Therumancer said:
ugh...god...Therumancer said:
There was another group that tried to intimidate America. And America's Government.
We're currently in a war in Afghanistan to root out their group and stop them.
Are you *REALLY* saying that Gamers should start trying to emulate the people who killed thousands of people in a suicide attack against New York?
Big gaming companies are here to make money. They are not here to try and spark revolutions, they are not trying to kill people, They are here. To make. Money.
The sooner you realize this, the sooner you will realize that hey. You know. Maybe they aren't supposed to do all that crap you keep spewing.
You know the way to stop this? Speak to your congressman. Without threatening him. SERIOUSLY. IT WORKS. Write letters. Support the ECA. Google it right now and you can find out how to help!Therumancer said:
Your rambling post has no sense, no intellect in it, and absolutely no truth to it whatsoever.Therumancer said:
We are all dumber for having read it.
I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
the guy running australian enternaiment has issues... for one thing, if they really didnt like violence that much, then y do they have fallout 3? way more gory. second, the gore is for more realism. it just isnt as scary when u kill a horde of zombies, instead of bleeding and dismemberment, they fall down and lie like harmless ragdolls. if they intend to be realistic about a zombie apocalypse then they need gore for the full experiance. for example, would u be scared of the approaching horde of mutants hell bent on ur demise if they didnt cover ur screen with their blood, thus making it seem like u just cut down 100 real zombies, and not 100 moving ragdolls created by walt disney?
Quoting pushed down for referance but ease of response.
Personally I love how a lot of weenies and left wingers love to pull a comment from the same bad movie out when they find themselves getting stomped by a point of view they can't agree with.
The bottom line here is that if you play by the rules you accomplish nothing in situations like this, because the guys your up against at the ones writing the rules and making desicians on when to call foul. The fear of getting arrested or targeted is of course part of it, and such fear is EXACTLY why the have a lack of balls. If it didn't involve taking any risks or at least sticking your neck out it wouldn't be brave at all.
I listed numerous examples of how such things have worked in the past, it is quite possible to "intimidate" the powers that be without flying a bloody plane into the bloody Pentagon. You talk about people being dumber for having read something and then use Al Queda and the 9/11 attacks as an example? Especially when I'm referring to real world examples of exactly where the kind of pressure I'm talking about has worked. Going back as recently as the 1980s with the whole "Video Nasties" thing that also started outside of the US. Had people just played by the rules Hollywood would currently be making "Care Bears Big Picnic Part XXXIX" because with the success against Horror movies it would have just snowballed from there into anything even remotely questionable.
The thing is though that yes, the video game industry, including Valve, are full of weenies who have yet to have their nuts drop. None of them want to stand up to the goverment or run point, they would rather wait for someone else to do it and they go "booyah, gogogogo" from the sidelines, and that right there is the problem.
But still, even if I WAS talking about some kind of massive insurrection, you DO realize that one of the cornerstones of our society is free speech right? The reason why we have a right to bear arms is specifically so we can fight against the goverment should it attempt to massively infringe on our liberties. Sure the wording says things about militia and whatever, but consider The Constitution was a great experiment and the guys who created it recognized it could go wrong, perhaps even in their lifetime, and wanted to have the tools to deal with it in a worst case scenario. Arguably this is exactly the kind of situation in which we ARE supposed to be involved in insurrection against the goverment.
On the other hand, I myself have seen no need for anyone to be involved in a massive revolt. In part because I believe the problem is a lot of politicians calling shots from within the goverment, and not the goverment itself. Basically if they succeed in getting the policies and precedent in power that they want, the goverment itself would become the enemy. Right now however it's all about dealing with certain people and movements. Hence the referances to thinks like union activity, and the techniques used against former censorship movements. "By the rules" they hold all the cards, so you go outside the structure of the rules.
In the end though it's simply that none of the forces that could do anything about this have the guts to get it started.
I'm sure Valve, and it's employees (if they even read this kind of stuff) have 20 million differant reasons for not wanting to oppose things like this, even in Australia, and playing by the rules. All of which basically come down to "we're scared and it's easier to do what the goverment says than try and change things" which is exactly the reaction things like the Australian censorship movements and the increasing pressure in the USA rely on.
Also keep in mind this is a global issue as well. How exactly are we going to oppose moral censorship in countries like China (smashing pro democracy sentiments and the like) if the first world countries who are guardians of free speech and human rights outselves perform censorship? If we're willing to censor some dude sticking needles in his arm, or some violence with zombies, how the F@ck can we criticize China anymore for surpressing their people on more important issues if we're that bloody petty? If Australia, the US, UK, etc.. fall on this issue so does humanity, some will accuse me of being melodramatic, but in this case I am not.
Still Valve is no worse than many people who could be involved here, they are just another group of cowards who like to bend over and keep their heads in line to pucker up with goverment booty.
Personally I love how a lot of weenies and left wingers love to pull a comment from the same bad movie out when they find themselves getting stomped by a point of view they can't agree with.
The bottom line here is that if you play by the rules you accomplish nothing in situations like this, because the guys your up against at the ones writing the rules and making desicians on when to call foul. The fear of getting arrested or targeted is of course part of it, and such fear is EXACTLY why the have a lack of balls. If it didn't involve taking any risks or at least sticking your neck out it wouldn't be brave at all.
I listed numerous examples of how such things have worked in the past, it is quite possible to "intimidate" the powers that be without flying a bloody plane into the bloody Pentagon. You talk about people being dumber for having read something and then use Al Queda and the 9/11 attacks as an example? Especially when I'm referring to real world examples of exactly where the kind of pressure I'm talking about has worked. Going back as recently as the 1980s with the whole "Video Nasties" thing that also started outside of the US. Had people just played by the rules Hollywood would currently be making "Care Bears Big Picnic Part XXXIX" because with the success against Horror movies it would have just snowballed from there into anything even remotely questionable.
The thing is though that yes, the video game industry, including Valve, are full of weenies who have yet to have their nuts drop. None of them want to stand up to the goverment or run point, they would rather wait for someone else to do it and they go "booyah, gogogogo" from the sidelines, and that right there is the problem.
But still, even if I WAS talking about some kind of massive insurrection, you DO realize that one of the cornerstones of our society is free speech right? The reason why we have a right to bear arms is specifically so we can fight against the goverment should it attempt to massively infringe on our liberties. Sure the wording says things about militia and whatever, but consider The Constitution was a great experiment and the guys who created it recognized it could go wrong, perhaps even in their lifetime, and wanted to have the tools to deal with it in a worst case scenario. Arguably this is exactly the kind of situation in which we ARE supposed to be involved in insurrection against the goverment.
On the other hand, I myself have seen no need for anyone to be involved in a massive revolt. In part because I believe the problem is a lot of politicians calling shots from within the goverment, and not the goverment itself. Basically if they succeed in getting the policies and precedent in power that they want, the goverment itself would become the enemy. Right now however it's all about dealing with certain people and movements. Hence the referances to thinks like union activity, and the techniques used against former censorship movements. "By the rules" they hold all the cards, so you go outside the structure of the rules.
In the end though it's simply that none of the forces that could do anything about this have the guts to get it started.
I'm sure Valve, and it's employees (if they even read this kind of stuff) have 20 million differant reasons for not wanting to oppose things like this, even in Australia, and playing by the rules. All of which basically come down to "we're scared and it's easier to do what the goverment says than try and change things" which is exactly the reaction things like the Australian censorship movements and the increasing pressure in the USA rely on.
Also keep in mind this is a global issue as well. How exactly are we going to oppose moral censorship in countries like China (smashing pro democracy sentiments and the like) if the first world countries who are guardians of free speech and human rights outselves perform censorship? If we're willing to censor some dude sticking needles in his arm, or some violence with zombies, how the F@ck can we criticize China anymore for surpressing their people on more important issues if we're that bloody petty? If Australia, the US, UK, etc.. fall on this issue so does humanity, some will accuse me of being melodramatic, but in this case I am not.
Still Valve is no worse than many people who could be involved here, they are just another group of cowards who like to bend over and keep their heads in line to pucker up with goverment booty.
jedizero said:
Yes. Of course. I'm being stomped by you replying to me. Also. Left winger? I'm republican. I just happen to be sane. P.S. Its so bad its good. That's why its quoted alot.Therumancer said:
One man. Ghandi.Therumancer said:
So much for all your claiming that nothing can get done without being rough, Violent, and doing various illegal and immoral activities as you've suggested. (Seriously. Kidnapping a child to scare someone? Over a GOD DAMNED VIDEO GAME?)
They pushed the envelope. Yes. BY MAKING MOVIES THAT WERE SLIGHTLY MORE VIOLENT. They did not do illegal activities, They most certainly did *NOT* attempt to rattle people by fucking kidnapping their kids. They also did not have a government rating system. They rated themselves. The *reason* I mentioned Al Queda and the 9/11 attacks. Is that you're basicly suggesting we try and terrorize someone....Gee. Like....the terrorists.Therumancer said:
Its a goddamn video game man. Its not worth it.
That is because standing up to the government over a video game. A BLOODY VIDEO GAME. That will result only in them losing money, and potentially being banned outright from the country.Therumancer said:
Which will piss off their shareholders.
Which will result in either them being replaced. OR...the company dying because they did something *Very* stupid.
Yes. You have your right to free speech. Just as I have the right to tell you how stupid this entire thing is. You're talking about kidnapping children. You're talking about hiring thugs to hurt people. You're talking. About potentially. Killing. People.Therumancer said:
OVER A GOD DAMNED VIDEO GAME AND THE IDIOT CENSORS.
I know the reason that we have to bear arms. And I personally feel that yes. It should not be infringed. But please...You say "The wording says things about militia and whatever." And then go "But I don't like that so I'm going to interprete it differently." This is a sign of a bad argument. please note again: I agree with you. People should be able to have weapons. If not for hunting, sport, or fun. Then to protect themselves from anybody who attacks them.
*facepalm* You're just going to ignore everything I say, aren't you? Please. Wake up from this dream you're living in.Therumancer said:
If you go outside the structure, its called breaking the law. And you can get arrested for it. And taken to a jail with Big Bubba. Who loves his new friend very much.
But you do. Please oh great doer of things. Go and do it. I'll read about your arrest.Therumancer said:
Hey. Here's one big one. THE THINGS. YOU ARE SUGGESTING. ARE FUCKING AGAINST THE LAW.Therumancer said:
IT WILL LEAD TO THEM BEING ARRESTED.
No. You are. The censoring of video games is not the end of the world. It is sad, and it needs to be stopped. But it does not need people like *You* doing this crap.Therumancer said:
You like to shop at hot topic don't you?Therumancer said:
(Quoting Pushed down for ease of response)
In general, I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree. Apologies about the guess on your political sentiments based on the quote.
That said again everything you point out as to why they shouldn't do this come down to the sheer issue of fear. Fear of losing money, fear of jail, fear of losing in general. It is fear that is used by the oppressor to keep the oppressed in line. That's the bottom line.
Yes, the censoring of video games IS the end of the world. As soon as you decide "it's not worth it" because tghe goverment is involved, you've pretty much given them a free reign to do whatever the heck they want. It's not worth it for video games, and then it's not going to be worth it when they decide to regulate and censor anything else.
The point about the video nasties thing is that the goverment DID try and regulate things beyond the point of private censorship, which is what is happening now. Not only did they push the envelope further in response, there were also other actions performed in coordination with it. Yes some of those tactics were quite brutal, just as they were when unions did similar things. That is ultimatly the price of freedom. It's why politicians are supposed to be scared of their people, you push something like this against their best interests and you are GOING to have problems on a very personal level.
Creating the enemey they talk about? Well I guess on some level that is true, as they went after a group of people that were more or less minding their own business, and then created a danger for themselves where there was none before.
The thing is that *IF* the game industry in general grew a pair, I think they would find a lot more support than they currently have. Part of the fear is of course that if a company like say Valve was to scream "Viva La Revolution" and hire a bunch of lawyers while at the same time having some Tasmanian mercenaries and former prison inmates (or whomever) engage on a campaign of intimidation (without admitting it) I think you'd be surprised how many people would support it. Especially if the gaming industry as a whole decided to rally and dumped money into the pot. Get gamers to show up and next thing you've got an issue where what are they going to do? Throw millions of game nerds into jail? Risk large scale riots in order to throw game designers in jail?
The big differance between this and "Terrorism" is that in general yer terrorists are attempting to influance the goverment by terrorizing the civilian population. In this case you have civilians attempting to intimidate their own goverment, something else entirely. It's happened successfully on numerous occasions, and again that is why we (at least in the US) have the right to bear arms and ther is an "American Gun Fetish" some people get it, others do not.
The thing is that in a real conflict between people there aren't many rules. "leaving the family out of it" sounds like a great principle in fantasy and such. In reality, well, you go after any handhold you can get. It should be noted that I didn't actually talk about killing anyone in that regard however. I believe that for this kind of thing pointing out simply that you COULD kill them through a grab and release works just as well. You'd leave stuff like a guy waking up in bed with the severed heads of his own family for an outright civil war if it came to that.
In the end though it's not JUST about censoring games, because once that precedent gets established it does not stop there. It moves from that onto other things, and does nothing but get bigger. Stuff like this has to be stopped while it's "small".
In the end "OMG, the problem is too big, we can't do anything! the goverment will arrest us!" is exactly what I mean when I accuse those with the resources to be a factor and oppose this (on one front or another) of being cowards.
Heck, the thing is that even when you get past the bloody criminal acts, nobody seems to have even hired lawyers, or tried to assemble a non-violent march. I believe I myself pointed out that a "million gamer march" or simply assembling tens of thousands outside of say the Australian Parliment might have an affect if you can convince them you mean business. But right now you don't even have companies like Valve trying to organize everything. Just wringing their hands and acting pathetic.
Feel free to respond, and have the last word. There is nothing more to be said on the subject.
But keep in mind part of my irritation is NOT the lack of criminal action (I simply mention it as a sign of where things could go and should if the conflict drags out) but the lack of any kind of meaningful action of ANY sort by anyone with any resources. All companies like valve do is bend over and hand the Aussies a tube of lube while the rest of the world watches and figures "Hmmm, maybe we can do the same thing against our own pesky free speech laws".
In general, I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree. Apologies about the guess on your political sentiments based on the quote.
That said again everything you point out as to why they shouldn't do this come down to the sheer issue of fear. Fear of losing money, fear of jail, fear of losing in general. It is fear that is used by the oppressor to keep the oppressed in line. That's the bottom line.
Yes, the censoring of video games IS the end of the world. As soon as you decide "it's not worth it" because tghe goverment is involved, you've pretty much given them a free reign to do whatever the heck they want. It's not worth it for video games, and then it's not going to be worth it when they decide to regulate and censor anything else.
The point about the video nasties thing is that the goverment DID try and regulate things beyond the point of private censorship, which is what is happening now. Not only did they push the envelope further in response, there were also other actions performed in coordination with it. Yes some of those tactics were quite brutal, just as they were when unions did similar things. That is ultimatly the price of freedom. It's why politicians are supposed to be scared of their people, you push something like this against their best interests and you are GOING to have problems on a very personal level.
Creating the enemey they talk about? Well I guess on some level that is true, as they went after a group of people that were more or less minding their own business, and then created a danger for themselves where there was none before.
The thing is that *IF* the game industry in general grew a pair, I think they would find a lot more support than they currently have. Part of the fear is of course that if a company like say Valve was to scream "Viva La Revolution" and hire a bunch of lawyers while at the same time having some Tasmanian mercenaries and former prison inmates (or whomever) engage on a campaign of intimidation (without admitting it) I think you'd be surprised how many people would support it. Especially if the gaming industry as a whole decided to rally and dumped money into the pot. Get gamers to show up and next thing you've got an issue where what are they going to do? Throw millions of game nerds into jail? Risk large scale riots in order to throw game designers in jail?
The big differance between this and "Terrorism" is that in general yer terrorists are attempting to influance the goverment by terrorizing the civilian population. In this case you have civilians attempting to intimidate their own goverment, something else entirely. It's happened successfully on numerous occasions, and again that is why we (at least in the US) have the right to bear arms and ther is an "American Gun Fetish" some people get it, others do not.
The thing is that in a real conflict between people there aren't many rules. "leaving the family out of it" sounds like a great principle in fantasy and such. In reality, well, you go after any handhold you can get. It should be noted that I didn't actually talk about killing anyone in that regard however. I believe that for this kind of thing pointing out simply that you COULD kill them through a grab and release works just as well. You'd leave stuff like a guy waking up in bed with the severed heads of his own family for an outright civil war if it came to that.
In the end though it's not JUST about censoring games, because once that precedent gets established it does not stop there. It moves from that onto other things, and does nothing but get bigger. Stuff like this has to be stopped while it's "small".
In the end "OMG, the problem is too big, we can't do anything! the goverment will arrest us!" is exactly what I mean when I accuse those with the resources to be a factor and oppose this (on one front or another) of being cowards.
Heck, the thing is that even when you get past the bloody criminal acts, nobody seems to have even hired lawyers, or tried to assemble a non-violent march. I believe I myself pointed out that a "million gamer march" or simply assembling tens of thousands outside of say the Australian Parliment might have an affect if you can convince them you mean business. But right now you don't even have companies like Valve trying to organize everything. Just wringing their hands and acting pathetic.
Feel free to respond, and have the last word. There is nothing more to be said on the subject.
But keep in mind part of my irritation is NOT the lack of criminal action (I simply mention it as a sign of where things could go and should if the conflict drags out) but the lack of any kind of meaningful action of ANY sort by anyone with any resources. All companies like valve do is bend over and hand the Aussies a tube of lube while the rest of the world watches and figures "Hmmm, maybe we can do the same thing against our own pesky free speech laws".
jedizero said:
You are using a fallacy to support your argument. The 'slippery slope' Fallacy.Therumancer said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope
Quoted from said link:
a slippery slope (also the thin edge of the wedge or the camel's nose) is a classical informal fallacy. A slippery slope argument states that a relatively small first step inevitably leads to a chain of related events culminating in some significant impact, much like an object given a small push over the edge of a slope sliding all the way to the bottom.[1] The fallacious sense of "slippery slope" is often used synonymously with continuum fallacy, in that it ignores the possibility of middle ground and assumes a discrete transition from category A to category B.
Please read it as this is what you are doing for your sole argument.
Politicians are 'scared of their people' because they choose who gets elected to congress. When you start physically threatening them, Its called harassment, and gets you arrested. Where you're no use to anyone at all. Its not fear of that. Its the realization that if you do this (very stupid act) You will get taken out of the picture via jail time.Therumancer said:
*facepalm* We have to show that we, are mature enough. If we act like what you propose, Then we'll be giving them ammunition. They might sway others into agreeing with them. Hell, the actions alone might sway others into agreeing with them.Therumancer said:
Hey. Everybody reading this topic. Hands up. Who'd support this crazy ass idea?Therumancer said:
There are people protesting. There are people trying to do things. You don't know the whole story.
There *IS* no difference. You're saying "Lets get something changed by scaring the crap out of a bunch of people."Therumancer said:
Oh, and since the Civilian population is the force behind getting people elected in the USA, the Terrorists did not attempt to influence the government, they attempted to influence the civilians supporting said government by trying to say "If you don't change this, We'll hurt you." Gee. Like what you're suggesting.
....All I'm going to say is that you're a sick. sick. man.Therumancer said:
Again relying on the 'slippery slope' Fallacy. Please read the wiki article.Therumancer said:
The reason Valve isn't trying to organize everything is because if it is to change, The people of Australia must make it. Valve is a video game company. Its not made to do what you're suggesting.Therumancer said:
Would you prefer they stop making games in order to organize this? Then we'd never get Episode 3.
And there *are* people trying to fix this. They *are* protesting. They are standing up and saying "We want this."
There is plenty more to be said on the subject, since you apparently have not researched enough.Therumancer said:
There *has* been meaningful actions.
And stop trying to use Australia as the starting point of going down the slippery slope (Again, Fallacy.) Its just not going to work. Its a different country from the rest of us.
Next you'll say that because Britan has banned guns that we're going to lose our weapons unless they get up off their asses and fix it.
Exactly, Atkinson just wants to enforce his personal religious morals on us. The whole children thing is just a convenient way of getting the job done. I've said it before on these forums, but if he really wanted to protect kids he'd approve an R18+ rating and force stores to require ID when selling it, that way developers won't trim a little bit off their adult oriented games to squeeze them into a kid-friendly rating, a la Fallout 3.kawligia said:
Maybe we should move to ban the Bible, there's plenty of violent and sexual stuff in there that children shouldn't be exposed to. Heck, books have been banned and authors jailed for writing far more tame stuff than that. Let's see how he likes it when something he enjoys is censored through bureaucratic laws by someone who doesn't like what he spends private time on.
All thee Australians who wish to purchase this:
1. Proxy Server.
2. Steam.
As it has been often said: Fuck the rules, I didn't sign on for this shit. Or else just ask a friend from elsewhere to buy it and mail it to you.
1. Proxy Server.
2. Steam.
As it has been often said: Fuck the rules, I didn't sign on for this shit. Or else just ask a friend from elsewhere to buy it and mail it to you.
Im shocked and saddend by this news. why the hell do we have one single bloke controlling what australia sees and doesn`t see based on what HE views as "inappropriate"? i`ve been playing games all my life and not ONCE have i ever raised a hand in anger to anoter person or animal. just because in a game i have beat in a zombies head with a frying pan does not mean that the next time i burn my eggs with a real fry pan im going to kill my mother with it and slaughter a box of kittens. wake up to your selves Michael Atkinson and the Australian Office of Film and Literature Classification, when was the last time you banned a book? never because books arent fun enough to get you attention. why not ban all games and we can finally be the droll lifeless slave robots you want us to be.
Because we have dumb old farts in office that have no idea of reality and what the real world is lolWoodsey said:
Chances are valve will just modify the game alittle bit to comply with the regs and release it, really not a big deal altho I must say its another example of the dummies we have in office.
no, just one Australian who is needed as part of the decision.Rutawitz said:
EDIT: also, buying on steam aint an option for me, my computer is only worth it's internet connection. i play all my games on my xbox
i want my zombies....:'(