I was being sporting in the other thread, not going to be so friendly here...
dragonswarrior said:
#1- Feminism is all about creating equity between the genders, and a part of what feminism promotes (heavily) is smashing down old fashioned patriarchal stupid bullshit ideas of masculinity. Like feeling ashamed because you like things up your bum. So yea. Feminism actually has a lot to do with that.
Your feelings... are your fucking problem. What he wants, and what you want, are universal social acceptance. This will never happen; it *cannot* happen in a free and democratic society. I whole heartedly reject feminism as an ideology that promotes thought control through emotional manipulation.
dragonswarrior said:
#2- This is definitely the one that makes the least amount of sense. Even then, I can still see how it can make many people uncomfortable to have to be in spaces named for men who were VERY much part of the patriarchal oppressive society in the day, especially when in many ways we are still living in said patriarchal oppressive society. Who wants extra reminders of that shit? Still makes the least amount of sense.
Let's take an example; the George Washington University. This guy lead the American Revolution against The Empire back in the day. He was so oppressive; he turned down the opportunity to become king of America because he believed in freedom and a democratic republic. Now you'll still sit there with a straight face and tell me he was an oppressor because he didn't do enough for women and that our society is an oppressive patriarchy? Is the entire basis for this oppression social expectation; that *women* share half the burden of perpetuating?
dragonswarrior said:
#3- As Bloated Guppy pointed out, many men (and a lot of women) consider sexual harassment to be something positive, i.e "You should be glad men find you attractive enough to harass you." I completely agree with this woman. I need feminism to get rid of this bullshit too. There are just so many fucking problems with this way of thinking...
Then don't think that way. Holy shit, that was a tough fix! What's next on the agenda?
Oh wait... you want to control other people's thinking, I keep forgetting that. Now do tell, how do you intend to ethically justify thought control? Because it hurts people's feelings?
dragonswarrior said:
#4- Yea. That's a thing. Male, female, whatever, we live in a rape culture. And unless you are a genius on the level of Kruppe the Arcane you have contributed to it unknowingly. And the only way we are going to get rid of it is, yes, with the dreaded feminism. This world will never be a good one to live in until we finally get rid of the idea that one gender is "prey" for the other gender. Even when we try to mean it harmlessly.
Except that there are two fundamental and important flaws behind rape culture theory...
A. Rape is a crime. Now no doubt you'll attempt to counter this will various "facts" that have been proven to be misrepresented over and over again feminism lost a great deal of integrity. Something along the lines that most rapists aren't jailed (ignoring the preponderance of evidence required for a conviction in our innocent until proven guilty legal process) or that the social stigma prevents victims from seeking help, which leads to the next issue...
B. Rape is universally despised as an immoral act. Even rapists know this. Making a joke about it doesn't affect it anymore that making a Jewish oven joke affects the holocaust. Humor is the human condition overcoming and commanding a great injustice dealt to them.
Now you might snap back some other retorts that I'm familiar with and simply don't care to get into, but using your asinine logic; we live in a murder culture, a genocide culture, a pedophile culture, and a culture culminating every single atrocity you can fathom. So would you please stop contributing to infanticide culture by ignoring that it's women committing 100% of the decision involving bringing another person into this world? (That was an abortion joke by the way; dammit... I just contributed to abortion culture, gah!)
dragonswarrior said:
#5- People should be able to do what they want with their bodies, and if it isn't harming anyone else, they should have nothing but support and acceptance. Where feminism comes in to this, is that women's bodies are FAR more controlled by the patriarchal male dominated society then men's bodies are. If a woman wants to grow out her armpit hair, the "positive" reactions she gets are still basically people telling her she shouldn't have done it, or that her first concern should be how men will react to it. And that's wrong. That's really really wrong. Especially when you realize that men can do whatever the fuck they want with their armpit hair, and society doesn't care.
People can and do whatever the fuck they want with their bodies. But they do NOT deserve support or acceptance from society as a whole for it. Society can accept what they did by shrugging their shoulders, but that's all they should be required to do. Aside from the abortion issue (which is a whole bag of worms itself), exactly how is the patriarchal male dominated society controlling women's bodies? By having beauty trends that change with the current social paradigm? Did you know during the Great Recession larger women were deemed more attractive? Did you know that the negro culture supports women with bigger booties?
I don't like hairy arm pits on women, and this wonderful country allows me the right and privilege to maintain that opinion. You, in your infinite wisdom, seek to rob me of expressing my individual tastes that happen to conflict with other individuals world views. I'm allowed to say; "I don't like it." She isn't entitled to positive reactions for everything she does from everyone who she tells. That's bullshit.
dragonswarrior said:
#6- This is a tiny bit more difficult, because of the whole "healthy" thing, but even so she still has a very good point. See the above point number five about women's bodies being more controlled than men's. Women are expected to look a certain way for men, and when they don't, they are considered worthless. No. Really. That's why you can get pudgy male politicians and lawyers who are very successful, but you'll never see a pudgy woman successful in law or politics to the same degree. Ever. Look at the successful politicians and lawyers today. Look at the men and women. Look at how most of the men have fat, and most of the women look like they fight it constantly. THAT'S WRONG.
Equating physical attraction to political power; now who's being oppressive to women? (Don't think I didn't notice your inner turmoil in accepting her health standards) Both sexes have social beauty standards. At any rate, Sonia Sotomayor seems like a woman with some meat on her bones. Elena Kagan certainly has some girth. And of course, everyone's favorite; Oprah! Granted she fluctuates a lot. But I find it rather odd you don't seem to account that women are more critical over each other than men are. Did this little factoid not come up in your women's studies?
dragonswarrior said:
#7- Women who do gender studies are looked down upon as unnecessary or feminazis or etc or whatever. One need merely look at this thread to realize that we desperately need more people taking gender studies.
What contribution do they represent to society? A self propagating liberal arts degree? It's valid insomuch she bought it with her own money, but not nearly as valid as a degree in... oh, I don't know; social psychology, criminal law, mathematics, nursing, engineering, media arts, etc.
Here's what tickles my fancy; women who go into gender studies to learn about how there aren't enough women earning degrees in male dominated fields. How's that for a fucking head scratcher?
dragonswarrior said:
#8- Yep!! They totally are!! See... Here is the thing. Male bodies aren't objectified when artistically nude because we live in a society that does not objectify men. Female bodies are still objectified, even when it is clearly art, simply because of the society we live in. It's impossible not to objectify them more than the men. Because women are objectified. They are treated as objects and commodities by society. AND THAT NEEDS TO CHANGE. AND THE ONLY WAY IT WILL CHANGE IS IF PEOPLE ARE FEMINISTS. I would like to see the day when male and female bodies can be in the nude without any objectification going on at all.
Ok, in what crazy screwed up school have you ever actually taken a nude drawing class? I've been in them, and never at any point were the models (both male and female) ever objectified as anything beyond the subject of the artwork being practiced. Quite in fact, the beginning of each class consisted of a brief understanding that people would be naked, the artists would treat this as serious and anyone found to be acting at any moment immature, or mentally fapping to the nude model would be thrown out of the class and *never* welcome back.
The very basis for your argument hinges on the difference of the models anatomy. A female model disrobes; students of both sexes draw her. A male model disrobes; students of both sexes draw him. So the difference is because... tits?
.../sigh
So, let's recap here...
1. You disagree with current social concepts of masculinity. You didn't actually discuss what they were, but "their bullshit". And feminism will fix this, again not actually discussing how.
2. Men are oppressive because we live in an oppressive patriarchy. And buildings being named after men make people uncomfortable because they helped build and maintain the oppressive patriarchy. (By the way, can you name me a legal right that men possess that women do not? Just curious.)
3. Because some people believe that sexually harassment is positive; we need to use feminism to make sure no one thinks this way. And how pray tell does feminism intend on doing this?
4. Rape culture. Feminism will fix rape culture by... making sure people can't joke about rape? By the way, you need to stop supporting rape culture; ok?
5. People should always get positive reactions to everything they do because the patriarchy controls women's bodies. I assume feminism will make a law that insures I'm required to high five people that choose to stop bathing?
6. Men control women's beauty standards, so women should be fat and get into politics. Will feminism dictate the weight requirements for political office?
7. I disagree with every single one of your positions, so we will use feminism to recruit more people into the program whom I will eventually disagree with; brilliant!
8. Female nudes are objectified because some guys like fapping to porn. So... feminism will ban porn? (I imagine you are one of those porn hating feminists) Or feminism will ban nude art?
Tell me, how are the "ladies" over at RadFemHub these days? They ever figure out that biological solution to the problem yet?
Beffudled Sheep said:
dragonswarrior said:
have contributed to it unknowingly.
I would enjoy it if you listed a series of examples of how one would unknowingly contribute to rape culture.
I do not seek to debate I seek to learn since I don't like doing harmful things, especially without knowing.
Trust me, you really don't. But if you'd like to read through some bullshit, you can start with http://everydayfeminism.com/2013/01/five-ways-rape-culture-exists-unnoticed/ and then move on from there. Here are some wonderfull bullshit solutions feminism has proposed as well; http://www.thenation.com/article/172643/ten-things-end-rape-culture?rel=emailNation#