Let's play a game about sex and sexism.

[The Lunatic]

Can I actually enjoy my FANTASY and not have the insipid demands for realism in every game that exists? Video games are not reality and do not need to be tied down to the mundane and boring world of reality when the desires of the developers want people to actually be absorbed by the imagination.

That is one thing that is always depressing to see and demand I see mainly made by women is that they want every game to reflect reality. Yes, obviously a breast plate that is actually molded to the form of the woman is not realistic. But the universe that exists within that game isn't real. I mean for all the studies stating that women have a greater imagination than men, I am always dumbfounded at how many individuals who are women would simply want to trade in all that imagination for even more generic and boring reality.

I couldn't imagine playing through any of the Fire Emblem games if they didn't have characters that stood out by having a dynamic artistic design and personality. I mean Lyn's clothing is completely unsuited for battle and the same with Titania but god dammit they are great characters and they look good(not to mention powerful as hell) and it makes me want to use them.

Ya really think LINK if brought down to the boring mundane or reality would actually be wearing a green tunic?

You can have all the fantasy you want, you can have a big fantasy game, maybe even put "Final" in the title and make it as a cap stone for fantasy games.


But, it's still going to just seem like a male power fantasy if you have all the guys wearing gear that actually protects them and all the women in sculpted armour.

I've no issue with a game being set in a fantasy setting.


But, a game set in a fantasy setting, where women -only- where armour that shows off their assets, guys only wear armour that protect? That's really stepping into the land of "Male power fantasy".

Now, you mention arguments that women bring up, and I'm not going to challenge that. I'm not a women. I'm not a straight guy either, I'm gay, and I have absolutely no attraction to these women in any amounts, I'm not female, so, I don't regard this as an "Offensive portrayal of my gender", I'm just a guy playing a game, where woman have sculpted armour to show off their feature, and males have armour to make them look imposing.

And that's an issue of equality, if you want to have one gender that's sexually depicted, and one that isn't, yeah, that's unfair. It's not an issue that's limited to just females, there are a lot of "Conans" in video games, A while, yes, for every Conan, that's a harem scantily clad women, that doesn't make it any less of an issue of equality.

If you want to have some fantasy land where all women have DDs, wear cones attached to their chest and nothing on the lower half, fine. But, be equal about it.


You mention a couple of examples of characters, I've not played Fire Emblem, but, I'll give them a look and comment.

Okay... Lyn.


Riight. Fine, you have a character who's some sort of samurai woman, she's not wearing anything in the way of armour, okay, that's fine, maybe she prefers to be agile, she's not the first.

She's not wearing pants.

... Okay... Male characters in these games are wearing some pretty slim-legging type pants, those don't seem like they'd get in the way of mobility at all, why isn't she wearing those? Is she not cold?

... Is she just a slut or something?

I mean, that's fine, you can have a character in the game who is very lusty and exposed, people like that do exist in real life, and as long as there's some balance to it, whatever.

But, are you seriously going to tell me the game is improved by having this woman not wearing pants?

What reason was there in the design to have her not wear pants? ... Was there any reason other than "Let's see some leg"?

I mean, the girl has like, H cups or something, are you really going to say that her having boobs large enough to use as floatation actually improves the game in some what? It adds to her character? Really?

 

[OtherSideofSky]

Why include Parasite Eve? It's much older than the others on that list, so it doesn't seem like its numbers would be reflective of the same market environment. It's not like they're haven't been more recent games you could pick. I mean, I'm not really complaining, but it just seems like a strange choice. What motivated you to pick those particular games?

Also, a sample size of nine doesn't really do much to establish trends. I'm not saying you won't find the trends you're looking for, just that you need more data to be convincing.

Well, like I said, I picked them semi-randomly based on what first came to mind (Focusing on solo games or the first game in a franchise, because it was a new IP then and new IPs tend to sell much less than their sequels.)

As for why Parasite Eve is on the list...well, Parasite Eve is one of my favorite games of all time. It doesn't really fit with the rest of the games and I've have done better with putting Devil May Cry/Bayonetta up there, but...I /really/ liked Parasite Eve.

Edit: The offer for people to find their own statistics and share them is still up there, too.

Hard to argue with that logic. Parasite Eve was really good. It's a shame we don't have more games like it.

Would you count Okami for the purposes of this list? I'm not sure how many Western consumers realized it had a female protagonist (and quite a culturally significant one at that), but every member of its Japanese audience certainly did.

It breaks your rule about sequels, but it might also be interesting to see if 'Order of Ecclesia' sold better or worse than other handheld Castlevania games.

I think the biggest problem you'll run into here is that a lot of the games with female protagonists are either niche games by design or have 'B-list' budgets compared to the biggest sellers in their respective genres. That says something in and of itself, of course, but it makes it difficult to find situations where you can say for certain that protagonist gender affected sales.

 

[5ilver]

I think the ME statistics say it all. If less than 20% of players are interested in playing as a female, then obviously the games industry is going to focus on male characters. It has nothing to do with misogyny and everything to do with profit.

 

[OtherSideofSky]

It's pretty hard to control what others will buy.

Personally, I cannot say that I have much influence over the shopping decisions of others.

But, I can say that I don't care if your character is female or male, I'm happy to play either.


Often, I prefer to play Females in "Male oriented games" or, games where the player character's gender is an option.


Usually, because these tend to be a lot less preachy about the "LOOK! YOU'RE PLAYING AS A GIRL" elements than games designed specifically with a female protagonist in mind.


And for some reason, playing as a woman who's role in the storyline is completely unchanged than if she were a male is a lot more equal than say, playing as a woman who's womanliness is flaunted as every opportunity.

I suppose I've a habit for "Realism if gender wasn't an issue".

Skyrim is an example of a game that falls a bit foul of this in armour design for me.

Female specific armour.

Plates of metal with mounds on them, deflecting blows towards the sternum, that's just silly in a lot of ways.

For one, who on earth is wearing armour so tightly it's a requirement to have a space for their boobs? This is steel armour we're talking about, not some skin-tight future stuff.

Added to that, what kind of world goes out of their way to make two separate types of armour for each gender? The costs would be insane, we don't even do that now.

You know what a female does if armour does fit? Wear a bigger size.

Spoiler: This

Does not become

Spoiler: This

By any reasonable design.

And don't even get me started on mods for skyrim or MMO "Armour" skyrim is pretty good about this kind of thing.

Other games are just a cocktail of depression when it comes to such things.

/Rant.

Okay, that second armor looks ridiculous, but haven't female soldiers been saying how much they like that new body armor the US military was testing a while back? You know, the kind that was constructed to better accommodate a woman's body (of course, it doesn't have giant sculpted breasts on the front of it, because that would be dumb)? Plus, medieval plate armor wasn't run off a production line. Skilled craftsmen made it piece by piece and it was rare for two sets to be the same (full plate was the domain of the heavy cavalry, and that meant landed nobles who were supposed to be able to afford that sort of thing). That means that it wouldn't really increase production costs at all for some armor to be made specifically for women, and it is likely that any woman adventurer with the money would want that custom fit and the edge it would give. Of course, they would never commission those mounds except maybe if it were some kind of show piece, so the game is still stupid, but a single gentle slope over the entire chest might actually make sense for some women.

Well, that was just pedantic rambling on my part, anyway. I think Dark Souls might be the game for you when it comes to armor design, because the heavy armor seems to look pretty much identical across genders.

 

[The Lunatic]

Okay, that second armor looks ridiculous, but haven't female soldiers been saying how much they like that new body armor the US military was testing a while back? You know, the kind that was constructed to better accommodate a woman's body (of course, it doesn't have giant sculpted breasts on the front of it, because that would be dumb)? Plus, medieval plate armor wasn't run off a production line. Skilled craftsmen made it piece by piece and it was rare for two sets to be the same (full plate was the domain of the heavy cavalry, and that meant landed nobles who were supposed to be able to afford that sort of thing). That means that it wouldn't really increase production costs at all for some armor to be made specifically for women, and it is likely that any woman adventurer with the money would want that custom fit and the edge it would give. Of course, they would never commission those mounds except maybe if it were some kind of show piece, so the game is still stupid, but a single gentle slope over the entire chest might actually make sense for some women.

Well, that was just pedantic rambling on my part, anyway. I think Dark Souls might be the game for you when it comes to armor design, because the heavy armor seems to look pretty much identical across genders.

I think these days, there is a push for more comfortable armour for females as more of them are joining the military.

I recall seeing a couple of things about it, can't remember exactly the details, but, I don't know how translatable modern armour is to medieval stuff, but, purely from looking at it, it seems the medieval armour is quite spaced from the body, and then there's various padding that separates the skin from the metal, and these are usually softer materials to soften the blows and what-not, this clothing would be fitted in a way to accommodate a female form as it works best when it's form fitting.

These days, armour is a shirt and a vest with a ceramic plate inside of it. So, it sits a lot closer to the body.

That's what I've read any who, I'm not an expert.


You're right about the production thing, I, was putting myself a bit too much in the Skyrim world where armour is all the same depending what material it is, and only females can wear armour made for females, and males only for males!

Yeah, Dark Souls is quite a good example of such things.

Monster Hunter, I am also fond of, but, it does have some issues here and there.

Namely, a lot of female armour seems to be missing thigh protection, for some reason.

 

[PissOffRoth]

Sniiiiiiiiiiip

The problem isn't women in video games having large breasts or revealing clothing. The problem is that all women in video games have (unrealistically) large breasts and/or revealing clothing. Regardless of how characterized and humanized they're supposedly becoming, they're still only allowed to have one body type; "sexy".

And the worst part isn't that game publishers and designers are doing this. They're allowed to. The worst part is that gamers won't buy the damn game if there's women without ridiculous proportions or minimal coverage. That really speaks volumes about our maturity and attitudes towards women.

 

[OtherSideofSky]

Okay, that second armor looks ridiculous, but haven't female soldiers been saying how much they like that new body armor the US military was testing a while back? You know, the kind that was constructed to better accommodate a woman's body (of course, it doesn't have giant sculpted breasts on the front of it, because that would be dumb)? Plus, medieval plate armor wasn't run off a production line. Skilled craftsmen made it piece by piece and it was rare for two sets to be the same (full plate was the domain of the heavy cavalry, and that meant landed nobles who were supposed to be able to afford that sort of thing). That means that it wouldn't really increase production costs at all for some armor to be made specifically for women, and it is likely that any woman adventurer with the money would want that custom fit and the edge it would give. Of course, they would never commission those mounds except maybe if it were some kind of show piece, so the game is still stupid, but a single gentle slope over the entire chest might actually make sense for some women.

Well, that was just pedantic rambling on my part, anyway. I think Dark Souls might be the game for you when it comes to armor design, because the heavy armor seems to look pretty much identical across genders.

I think these days, there is a push for more comfortable armour for females as more of them are joining the military.

I recall seeing a couple of things about it, can't remember exactly the details, but, I don't know how translatable modern armour is to medieval stuff, but, purely from looking at it, it seems the medieval armour is quite spaced from the body, and then there's various padding that separates the skin from the metal, and these are usually softer materials to soften the blows and what-not, this clothing would be fitted in a way to accommodate a female form as it works best when it's form fitting.

These days, armour is a shirt and a vest with a ceramic plate inside of it. So, it sits a lot closer to the body.

That's what I've read any who, I'm not an expert.


You're right about the production thing, I, was putting myself a bit too much in the Skyrim world where armour is all the same depending what material it is, and only females can wear armour made for females, and males only for males!

Yeah, Dark Souls is quite a good example of such things.

Monster Hunter, I am also fond of, but, it does have some issues here and there.

Namely, a lot of female armour seems to be missing thigh protection, for some reason.

You're right that full plate armor has a lot of layers to it, so that it needn't reflect what's underneath nearly as much as lighter modern gear. I still think that some differences of proportion would probably better accommodate the average female body, but now that I think about it the difference would probably be more noticeable in the hip and shoulder than it would in the chest. In any case, it would be a far subtler distinction than is usually portrayed.

Actually, come to think of it, why are so many of these people wearing full plate armor in the first place? It was never exactly the equipment of choice for infantry, and it generally required assistance to maintain, put on and remove. It would make much more sense for most of these lone adventurer types to be wearing leather and mail, with helmets and maybe a bit of plate here and there. Something like the lighter padded armor favored by the medieval Arabs might also be a good choice.

In any case, I think the setting of a game does a lot to determine how realistic the armor ought to be. Dark Souls clearly benefits from its relatively realistic gear (it fits the somber tone and makes the more unusual equipment seem more special by comparison) and Skyrim suffers somewhat from that absurd looking breastplate (it makes you stop for a minute and think 'wait, what?' which takes you out of the experience). On the other hand, I wouldn't bat an eye at absurd female armor in a game like Sengoku Basara (actually, none of its playable females wear armor, just cloth) because it would be standing next to such absurdities as Yukimura Sanada's armor, which covers everything but his torso in order to show off his physique, or Ieyasu Tokugawa's, which is effectively a belly shirt (if you can't tell, Basara was designed to appeal to the fangirl demographic). Some games demand realistic steel and some games demand brightly colored nonsense clothing, but I think it generally works best when the amount of exposed skin remains fairly consistent across genders.

 

[The Almighty Aardvark]

Again it's amazing how people complain about pandering to the lowest common denominator but will use the example of majority rules when arguing about female characters.

I want to mention just how accurate this statement is to the situation. Outside of gender issue where will you ever see people support companies making business decisions for profit? Microtransactions for significant plot items? Don't worry, it's alright because companies need to make money. Trying to get the CoD audience? Hey, they're just targeting the biggest demographic, what logic is there in pleasing just a niche group?

I think that some publishers just need to bite the bullet and put out good female protagonists. Sales might not be fantastic for the first couple games, but it'll probably pave the way for a larger female audience, which overall will have a massive effect on sales. At the very least things look like they're heading in a good direction even if they're not there yet.

 

[barbzilla]

Honestly if you are interested in finding out some real data I will give you a list of data to gather for me (I'm swamped right now with work) and I will be happy to compile the data into useful information for the topic and provide charts, diagrams, a slide show, and a short paper on my interpretation of the data. If anyone is interested in taking up this task (or if multiple people are) I am going to list what you need to find for me.

1: Data
We need sales data that includes titles that are original IP release games featuring Female Protagonists, Male Protagonists, Choice of Protagonists, Number of copies sold, gross profit from the sales, the amount of time it was in development, the amount of time it was being manufactured and sold, level of advertising for the game, and cost of developing the game.

2: Why and How
Original IPs; We don't want the game to succeed or fail based on previous entries in the title. Think of Diablo 3, that game has the best day one sales of any PC game ever, but it was due to the previous entries, not the game or the advertising. So if we included those games it would corrupt the data. No extra info needs to be added when listing the game data, just remember that it has to be an original title.

Female Protagonists, Male Protagonists, and Choice of Protagonists; The reasoning behind these is to help classify the data. I am going to use the Choice of Protagonists as a baseline and possibly to pad the results in such a way as to have two different statistical outlooks. I will also be using the current split in male vs female players (if I can find an officially done study) to examine the results based on the demographics involved. This should be listed directly with the title so that I can quickly sort the data for entry.

Number of Copies;
This data is to determine how many copies the game sold for the purposes of determining how profitable the game was based on the gross profits. I need you to list this data underneath the name of the game, please give me an entry in the millions of units rounded up to the nearest thousand (I.E. game sells 2,460,432 copies, I want it to show 2.461m) this is just to make it easy on my eyes.

Total Gross Profits:
This is also to help me determine the profitability of the game. I would like this listed underneath the number of copies, displayed in the millions, and rounded to the nearest thousand. Just like before.

Amount of time in development:
This is to help give me an idea of the amount of effort put into the game's release. This is useful for getting an idea on how the publisher felt about that particular game. If you can't find this data, that is fine, but it would be very helpful. Listed underneath Total Gross, but if you can't find the info make sure to write NA there and not just move on to the next score (same goes with anything you can't find).

Manufacturing time frame;
This should be listed as how long the game was being manufactured and sold to distributors, not the amount of time you could find it on the shelves. This is to get an idea of how long it took to manufacture and sell the total number of copies. List it under the time in development, if you want you can either give the time in years or give me the release date and the final date of manufacturing.

Level of Advertisement:
This is to get an idea of how much the advertising campaign influenced the numbers. I am doing this percentage based so I can come up with another metric to filter the data and try to come up with a number that is based on the male/female user base instead of the sales related to the "hype". This should be in a format of 1-100. 1 will represent no advertising at all, and 100 represents full advertising. This should be judged by how many different types of media it was advertised on. Online, Magazines, Television, game trailers in other games, movie plugs, demos, other. I suggest you give 15 points for each type of media you find advertising for, and you can make judgement calls based on the level of advertising those media's received. For example if the game had a 5 minute demo, you might only give it 3 points, or if an ad for the game only appeared in one magazine one time you might give it 2 points. On the reverse side if the game appeared in 15 movie plugs then you may give it 20 points just based on the popularity of the movies. This data you can list underneath the development time.

Total Cost of Development;
Yet another metric to determine the amount of time, money, and effort they put into the development of the game. This will help us determine how the sales suffered based on these numbers. List this in millions just like the rest of the numbers I've asked for.


I won't promise that this will be the best study every on the subject, and I am anything but a professional that can be quoted, but it should return some interesting results. If you can only get this information on one game, that is fine, if many people can provide one game to me at a time, we can still end up with an expansive data pool to use. I would like to collect this data on a total of 10+ games in each of the three categories I am looking for before I start compiling the results. This will help to alleviate the skewing of results due to oddities, it is still a rather low number though so it won't be perfect by a long shot. If I can get this data on 50+ games of every category it will help us to come up with something that might be publishable by the escapist (if this happens I will list everyone who provides data to me in the proper format as an equal partner in the credits so you will all get your equal due and fame lol).

I suppose I should also update the thread if anyone actually responds to this, but I don't expect anyone else to have that kind of time on their hands to research this either.

 

[TehCookie]

With respect to the resident cat lady or crazy radical feminists, I don't think they're the main target audience for most games that sell nowadays and they won't add up to more than a few thousand to tens of thousands of sales at most.

For trying to be respectful saying my opinion doesn't matter is pretty disrespectful.

-resident crazy cat lady.

OT: I don't get why men push so hard against female characters. I can understand if they're being forced into an existing IP, but a lot of women asking for new IPs with female protagonists. Then again I may also be a minority among those womenn because I'm not looking for huge AAA blockbusters featuring women, I'm fine with more AA niche games with them. Then when those don't flop the AAA may realize that those games do sell.

 

[zumbledum]

Following the latest Jimquisition, I noted many of the comments complaining about the game industry's attitude that they don't use female protagonists because they don't sell. Let's put that to the test with a bit of data, eh? Anyone is feel free to contribute any relevant data or information, and I'll say now that my numbers are from VGChartz. Also, I have only chosen the first three games that came to mind in no particular order. Hence the offer for other people to contribute.

I also want to point out that Parasite Eve, Gears of War, and Halo: Combat Evolved are all console exclusive.

its impossible to get the right data on this subject. you need to know how they would of sold in the other way around, like gears of war how many fewer/more would it of sold if it was released with a female. and there is simply no way to tell.

even if you took games like uncharted and tomb raider and compare them the data still wont be meaningful because your still not getting lost sales info which is the bit you actually need. and it will be skewed by different release times, marketing budget brand awareness etc.

the whole thing is a massive non issue anyway, Here in the UK nearly all beer/cider adverts feature men. you don't see any of those girly teen hair and beauty magazines with men on the cover.

none of this is sexist its simply marketing targeting a demographic.

 

[barbzilla]

Following the latest Jimquisition, I noted many of the comments complaining about the game industry's attitude that they don't use female protagonists because they don't sell. Let's put that to the test with a bit of data, eh? Anyone is feel free to contribute any relevant data or information, and I'll say now that my numbers are from VGChartz. Also, I have only chosen the first three games that came to mind in no particular order. Hence the offer for other people to contribute.

I also want to point out that Parasite Eve, Gears of War, and Halo: Combat Evolved are all console exclusive.

its impossible to get the right data on this subject. you need to know how they would of sold in the other way around, like gears of war how many fewer/more would it of sold if it was released with a female. and there is simply no way to tell.

even if you took games like uncharted and tomb raider and compare them the data still wont be meaningful because your still not getting lost sales info which is the bit you actually need. and it will be skewed by different release times, marketing budget brand awareness etc.

the whole thing is a massive non issue anyway, Here in the UK nearly all beer/cider adverts feature men. you don't see any of those girly teen hair and beauty magazines with men on the cover.

none of this is sexist its simply marketing targeting a demographic.

There is always a way to extrapolate the data, you just need to know the proper variables. Though I do actually agree with you as far as why. There are too many variables involved to just look at sales numbers of two completely different games (one with a male protagonist and one with a female protagonist) and compare their sales side by side. It just doesn't work that way.

As far as it being sexist, I don't think that it is sexist. I think it is a target demographic as you say. That doesn't mean it can't change though, nor does it mean it shouldn't change. What women are asking for is for them to have some games pointed in their direction that isn't just rushed out the door so the publisher can work on something more profitable or put out with a female protagonist that is clad in a pair of thong underwear and some nipple pasties. While it isn't sexist, as there is no intent, that doesn't change the fact that it isn't fair or right.

 

[CloudAtlas]

While it isn't sexist, as there is no intent, that doesn't change the fact that it isn't fair or right.

The result can still be sexist even if the intent wasn't. But I think, or hope, that a fair number of the problematic portrayals of female characters in games are is indeed not due to bad intentions, but due to unawareness or inability.

Again it's amazing how people complain about pandering to the lowest common denominator but will use the example of majority rules when arguing about female characters.

I want to mention just how accurate this statement is to the situation. Outside of gender issue where will you ever see people support companies making business decisions for profit? Microtransactions for significant plot items? Don't worry, it's alright because companies need to make money. Trying to get the CoD audience? Hey, they're just targeting the biggest demographic, what logic is there in pleasing just a niche group?

So true. Both of you.

 

[Batou667]

I said why I didn't include the early Tomb Raiders early in the thread. They were sold on the basis of T&A. The premise wasn't 'Look, you get to play as a woman!' It was 'Check out these BAZOOKAS!'.

Lara being attractive is/was part of her character, sure. But discounting one of the best-selling franchises of all time because "she's attractive, doesn't count!" is a cop-out. If your opening post had set out to show that games with unattractive female leads don't tend to sell well, then you may have had a point.

Also, even if plenty of 14-year old boys did lose their virginity to the Tomb Raider box art, doesn't make Tomb Raider a bad game or Lara a bad character. The T+A may have been the initial draw - and yeah, marketing was sure as hell going to play on that - but what kept people playing and buying sequels was the actual game. Bottom line is, it doesn't matter what the premise may or may not have been, fact is Tomb Raider is a very successful franchise with a recognisable female lead, and should have been included for the sake of impartiality. If we start discounting every female protagonist who is sexualised in some way or other, we'd have precisely zero to choose from. (That's not something we as a demographic should probably be particularly proud of, and that's a whole other discussion, but that's not *this* discussion).

As for Chell, she doesn't count not because she's not defined by her gender, but because she's not a character. Chell is a floating camera and little more. She doesn't speak, she seems to have no motivations (Only being forced forward by the circumstances she finds herself in), no personality, no anything. It's the very blankest of blank slates. Compared to Chell, Chief is an incredibly deep, thoughtful character. Which is sad. Which is the point.

I dunno, man.

First - fair enough, you also chose not to count Gordon Freeman. But wait, is that fair enough? Gordon may be a mute gun-rack but he's still a character - complete with defined gender - by merit of the (bloody one-sided) interactions he has with other characters in the game. He may not be an overtly masculine presence in the same way Duke Nukem or Marcus Fenix are in their respective games, but he's still definitely male.

To your credit you didn't count Doom Guy or Quake Guy as representatives of male protagonists - but like I said in my earlier post, the game almost didn't have to mention their gender since maleness is a default, especially in a blood-and-gore action context like Doom or Quake. This muddies the waters, because then to what extent are later "male" protagonists truly representatives of their sex, and to what extent are they simply everyperson placeholders that are simply painted male to fall in lines with cultural norms?

Second, why is it a shame that Chell isn't characterised more? I think it's perfectly fitting that she's a blank slate (and no, I don't mean that in some horribly condescending "all women should be seen and not heard" kind of way). The real "character" in Portal is the game itself: the premise, the atmosphere, and if pushed to identify a "main character", that'd be GLaDOS.

Master Chief "deep" and "thoughtful"? Sure. In Bizarro World. His faceless, killing-machine aspect is the closest thing he has to a personality, and 343i showed what a cul-de-sac this was when they tried injecting some humanity into him in Halo 4. Chief is exactly what I meant when I talked about nominally-male placeholders: he's the 21st century equivalent of Doom Guy. He could be a male under the inch-thick titanium, but he could equally as well be a female, or a sentient jelly, or two naughty ten-year olds trying to get into a movie by having one sit on the other's shoulders.

Halo may be a game with a male lead, but it certainly isn't a game about a male character. Basically, if Portal doesn't count, neither should Halo.

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

Can I actually enjoy my FANTASY and not have the insipid demands for realism in every game that exists? Video games are not reality and do not need to be tied down to the mundane and boring world of reality when the desires of the developers want people to actually be absorbed by the imagination.

That is one thing that is always depressing to see and demand I see mainly made by women is that they want every game to reflect reality. Yes, obviously a breast plate that is actually molded to the form of the woman is not realistic. But the universe that exists within that game isn't real. I mean for all the studies stating that women have a greater imagination than men, I am always dumbfounded at how many individuals who are women would simply want to trade in all that imagination for even more generic and boring reality.

I couldn't imagine playing through any of the Fire Emblem games if they didn't have characters that stood out by having a dynamic artistic design and personality. I mean Lyn's clothing is completely unsuited for battle and the same with Titania but god dammit they are great characters and they look good(not to mention powerful as hell) and it makes me want to use them.

Ya really think LINK if brought down to the boring mundane or reality would actually be wearing a green tunic?

I was tempted to just snip you post and type /rant as a throwback to what you did to The Lunatic. But I am just really here to tell you that your entire post (or rant, which seems like a better description) hinges entirely on the [url?="https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/personal-incredulity"]personal incredulity[/url] fallacy. "I don't think this is a problem, I can't see why it is a problem and because of that it isn't a problem" is pretty much how your post goes.

Good work at not only misrepresenting the actual stance [https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman] of most people who complain about the design of female characters but seeming entirely oblivious to what it actually is. Next time you want to debate perhaps you ought to bring along more than just rhetorical flourish and [url?="https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/anecdotal"]anecdotal evidence[/url] from your own experience when stating your case.

 

[Archer666]

I think the ME statistics say it all. If less than 20% of players are interested in playing as a female, then obviously the games industry is going to focus on male characters. It has nothing to do with misogyny and everything to do with profit.

This guy is right. You should listen to this guy.

Lust for money doesn't care about gender, only about what sells the best.

 

[CloudAtlas]

Can I actually enjoy my FANTASY and not have the insipid demands for realism in every game that exists? Video games are not reality and do not need to be tied down to the mundane and boring world of reality when the desires of the developers want people to actually be absorbed by the imagination.

You know, just like yourself, others want to enjoy their fantasies too. And for a sizable number of people this enjoyment is diminished by content that they feel is sexist. That's the point, or at least one point.

Other than that, I'll have to second Gethsemani.

Anyway, I keep wondering why some guys get so super defensive about this issue. Sure, making the protagonist a woman is a big decision for a game. But other than that, it's not like including more appropriately dressed, well characterized, non-inferior, active female characters, with their own agendas takes anything away from a game.

Or does it?

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

I think the ME statistics say it all. If less than 20% of players are interested in playing as a female, then obviously the games industry is going to focus on male characters. It has nothing to do with misogyny and everything to do with profit.

This guy is right. You should listen to this guy.

Lust for money doesn't care about gender, only about what sells the best.

That's not what the statistics say though. It says that 18% of players choose a female protagonist. It says nothing about how likely they are to buy a game based on protagonist alone or even if they are ready to not buy a game because the protagonist is of a particular gender/ethnicity/religion. Jumping to conclusions is never a good idea.

 

[Smeatza]

You know, just like yourself, others want to enjoy their fantasies too. And for a sizable number of people this enjoyment is diminished by content that they feel is sexist. That's the point, or at least one point.

Is something objectively sexist just because an individual thinks so?
Is it really reasonable to expect every other individual on the planet to censor or edit their fantasies because a few individuals dislike them?
Why is it these individuals feel the need to change or censor these existing fantasies they deem sexist, rather than create one of their own, or find another that is more suitable?

That's not what the statistics say though. It says that 18% of players choose a female protagonist. It says nothing about how likely they are to buy a game based on protagonist alone or even if they are ready to not buy a game because the protagonist is of a particular gender/ethnicity/religion. Jumping to conclusions is never a good idea.

It's still a reasonable indicator. When a group was given the choice between having a male or female character the vast majority of said group chose a male one. No this is not conclusive proof that these individuals would not buy a game with a female lead. But it does show what the general preference was, which gender the players would play as when given a choice.

If I'm stood in a video game store. Glancing between Uncharted 3 and the new Tomb Raider, this preference is going to come into play (amongst other preferences).