LGBT in children's cartoons: Who did it better?

[Eclipse Dragon]

That said, even if they'd approached Nickelodeon straight off the bat and gotten a green card, they'd still be facing criticism for the relationship, especially the Bi nature of it. Shit, the things I've seen being aimed at Steven Universe for what they're doing... oh, the internet sure is disappointing some days.

Oh of course, damned if you do, damned if you don't. There really is no way to make everyone happy, but isn't that even more reason, if this is something they wanted to do from the beginning, to just go for it? Give a giant middle figure to anyone who doesn't like the direction?[footnote]Bar Nickelodeon of course because well, they write the paycheck[/footnote]

From what we've seen of Steven Universe, there seems to be enough fans to support a show going in that direction without trying to please the half that'd rather not. (As long as CN doesn't start trying to sell toys, then I fear we'll see the immediate cancellation... don't mind me, I haven't forgiven CN yet).

 

[soren7550]

I can't really say anything about Steven Universe as the few episodes I've seen didn't really deal with that sort of thing, but I have seen all of Korra, so let's go on about that for a bit, eh?

While I do understand that there wasn't a whole lot they could directly say/show while under Nick's thumb of screw you, even then I don't find the KorrAsami pairing very good. Besides it seeming WAY too fan service-y, other than the ending shot there really wasn't any definitive scenes of their relationship going beyond that of good friends. Hell, by the final episode Korra could have easily gotten back with Mako with all their interactions they've had (especially with the whole arc of them mending their friendship and getting close again).

I really want to love the hell out of the series, but with Nick's dicking around with Bryke, they turned what could have been a vastly superior successor to AtLA into a fits and spurts of quality series that's gonna leave people divided for years.

Also, relevant: http://chezapocalypse.com/episodes/korra-needs-more-gay/

 

[bluelucied]

While I do understand that there wasn't a whole lot they could directly say/show while under Nick's thumb of screw you, even then I don't find the KorrAsami pairing very good. Besides it seeming WAY too fan service-y, other than the ending shot there really wasn't any definitive scenes of their relationship going beyond that of good friends. Hell, by the final episode Korra could have easily gotten back with Mako with all their interactions they've had (especially with the whole arc of them mending their friendship and getting close again).

I really want to love the hell out of the series, but with Nick's dicking around with Bryke, they turned what could have been a vastly superior successor to AtLA into a fits and spurts of quality series that's gonna leave people divided for years.

The sad thing is is that most of the issues with LoK were from Bryke's writing issues. One of the reasons ATLA was much better, for lack of a better term, was because they had a solid team to peer review and refine the story and knock out the daft bits. (Male Toph and an Aang/Katara/Toph love triangle. Blech.)

The thing is, if they had not A) added that last... 30- or so seconds of Korra and Asami at the end of the show and B) released the statement that they did about Korrasami being canon (Which in itself was poor and just an example oh how they had to tell, not show throughout the show) then we likely wouldn't be having this discussion. At all. LoK has no other examples of LGBT. Nothing even that's really a hint or a wink or a nod to anything. And the way S4 was executed there was a large portion of the fandom still expecting Makorra to happen. As much as Bryke will claim they were planning to end on Korrasami, they still pushed their Creator's Pet hard. Not only that, their statement caused a massive wave of bi-erasure and community in-fighting. If you didn't ship it, you were a homophobic p-o-s. Even people openly in the LGBT community who voiced their disappointment and dissatisfaction with the ending had to endure hate from rabid Korrasami fans.

And now, you google 'LGBT Nickelodeon' and the first result is 'How a Nickelodeon Cartoon Became One of the Most Powerful, Subversive Shows of 2014'. Is that last gasp of 'oh they're HOLDING HANDS' good representation? It's like with the recent marriage ruling and people and corporations plastering rainbows over everything.

 

[hermes]

Out of those options, I would say SU, no doubt. Even when I didn't make the connection until I learned all gems are unisex/female (I used to see Ruby as a young boy), the truth is LoK was not handled well... not at all. We can argue all night about how Nickelodeon screwed up by not allowing nothing more (without no proof of one thing or the other), and how many "subtle" hints the creator inserted in previous chapters (apparently subtle enough that nearly no one noticed[footnote]Outside of crackpot theorists, but I never count them...[/footnote]); but having (literally) the last 10 seconds of a 4 seasons show as payoff to imply Korra's orientation is NOT good LGBT representation. If anything, it sounds like they were forced to end with Korra in a romantic relationship and Asami was the only one left that made some sense.

I am actually more surprised that no one has been able to produce any other result. Is it really the state of animation (excluding anime and movies) to the point were Korra/Asami is such a landmark? I am beginning to think Garrison and Smithers should be more celebrated, despite being obvious parodies...

 

[BytByte]

I haven't seen all of Steven Universe yet, so I'll just throw my hat in Clarence. Jeff's parents are just living their regular lives like anyone else, which is a rarity for LGBT on TV. Similar to the Paranorman in its depiction.

 

[Riot3000]

Well technically Korra because the Gems are pretty much rocks so the concept LGBT can not be applied to Stevie U characters. huehueh

Ok to answer the question legit it is cop out answer I like them both for different reason. Korrasami was like I took it as a mixture of my dirty mind and fandom being fandom. So when got together with the "sly" implication it was not so much holy shit a lesbian couple on a childrens show my first reaction in my was "tumblr just imploded right now.

With Steven Universe it works because again there rocks but way they handle emotions and how the behave with each other is using that good ol human mind trick of making familar out of the abstract.

Either way both were great shows and the key is to let it happen more and more.

I haven't seen all of Steven Universe yet, so I'll just throw my hat in Clarence. Jeff's parents are just living their regular lives like anyone else, which is a rarity for LGBT on TV. Similar to the Paranorman in its depiction.

Clarence is underrated show on Cartoonnetwork.

 

[Souplex]

Well, I haven't seen either, but from an outsiders view I would say that the second one did it much better.

...

Until the singing started. Do they do that a lot in Steven Universe?

In about a third of the episodes, and it's wonderful!
Rebecca Sugar (Creator of Steven Universe) has a background being in the music departments of other shows, so it's only natural.
In addition to beating Korra at LGBT representation, Steven Universe also recently beat Korra at the whole "It's a kids show" thing with an episode that basically features zombies made out of rape.
captcha: Skynet watches

 

[MrCalavera_v1legacy]

I haven't even seen that ep of SU yet, but gotta asume it was presented better than in LoK. Because, damn, this blink-and-you-miss-it romance deal was blown outta proportion. Mind you, i only mean the glorified buildup, not the last scenes that made it obvious there was a thing going between Korra and Asami. Hell, i could've bought it as the beginning of a relationship if not for the mr Shipper Prime's blognotes.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

I'm gonna have to go with none of the above for a very simple reason, very badly skewed representation that boils down to this:

L: "Sure we can at least show that two girls are together in someway, because two women kissing is hawt."
G: "Well if we're very discreet about it we can maybe kinda show some, because most people are okay with gay guys now."
B: "Lulz! Nope! How do we even show that!?/Bi doesn't exist!"
T: "All of the nope! No, trans doesn't exist/is too gross and weird to show!"

This is due in large part to L&G working as hard in the LGBT community as it does to erase the identities of bi and trans people, especially trans people. The other side of the coin is how "acceptable" showing lesbian characters is compared to even gay characters, which is mostly driven by the image of two women kissing being "hot" to men. That sort of thing is really skewing the representation in a awkward and discriminatory ways.

LoK bungled it's same-sex relationship with just awful writing, doesn't matter how restrictive Nick is in this case, it was just badly done. Steven Universe is better by a long way and paws it off on the crystal gems being a mono-sex/gender alien species, though that brings up some potentially disturbing questions about Steven's conception. Though that last part isn't anything that hasn't already been done, see Spock from Star Trek. Clarence probably pulled it off best but there are a couple of problems with it: The first is that Jeff's moms seem to be a stereotypical representation of a butch/dyke and fem/lipstick relationship. The second being the implication this is screwing Jeff up as seen in his MASSIVE OCD issues and his plethora of phobias, thus playing into the idea that a same sex couple can't properly raise a child. The latter is probably purely unintentional, but it still plays badly.

So yeah still going with a big fat; "none of them do it better they all suck at it," position. Then again this is pretty much broad across all media, not just cartoons.

 

[Rylot]

I haven't seen all of Steven Universe yet, so I'll just throw my hat in Clarence. Jeff's parents are just living their regular lives like anyone else, which is a rarity for LGBT on TV. Similar to the Paranorman in its depiction.

That's a really good example. You can't really claim it's fan servicy like some have claimed Korra was. No big deal made about it. Just seen as normal. Really the only criticism I can see leveled at it, is the abundant use of stereotypical flannel.

 

[Souplex]

I haven't seen all of Steven Universe yet, so I'll just throw my hat in Clarence. Jeff's parents are just living their regular lives like anyone else, which is a rarity for LGBT on TV. Similar to the Paranorman in its depiction.

That's a really good example. You can't really claim it's fan servicy like some have claimed Korra was. No big deal made about it. Just seen as normal. Really the only criticism I can see leveled at it, is the abundant use of stereotypical flannel.

To be fair, the stereotypical "Butch lesbian" does exist, and it's just as unfair to marginalize them just because they're cliche.

 

[soren7550]

In addition to beating Korra at LGBT representation, Steven Universe also recently beat Korra at the whole "It's a kids show" thing with an episode that basically features zombies made out of rape.
captcha: Skynet watches

One episode (mini-sode?) doesn't outdo a whole series that depicts onscreen:

- the torture of a minor [http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/avatar/images/4/4e/Unalaq_threatens_Jinora.png/revision/latest?cb=20131113234048]
- Murder via asphyxiation [http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/avatar/images/0/02/Hou-Ting_suffocating.png/revision/latest?cb=20140808155750]
- Attempted murder via asphyxiation [http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/avatar/images/6/6d/Korra_suffocated.png/revision/latest?cb=20140822131137]
- Sexual assault
- Murder-suicide
- Child abuse/endangering a minor (various)
- Kidnapping (various)
- Subjugation [http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/avatar/images/7/70/Police_violence.png/revision/latest?cb=20121108030913]
- PTSD [http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/avatar/images/3/3c/Korra_confronting_herself.png/revision/latest?cb=20141010144814]
- Annexation (various)
- Poisoning [http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/avatar/images/6/6e/Korra_poisoned.png/revision/latest?cb=20140822131149]
- Getting crushed to death
- Being forced into an abusive relationship [http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/avatar/images/5/58/Bolin_relieved.png/revision/latest?cb=20131004173733]
- Attempted crushing to death
- Being thrown into an abyss [http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/avatar/images/3/35/Aiwei%27s_end.png/revision/latest?cb=20140808075147]
- Head being blown up [http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/avatar/images/3/3a/P%27Li%27s_death.png/revision/latest?cb=20140822165455]
- Torture (various)


And let's not forget the Suicide Theory and how Korra's recovery from her mercury poisoning/PTSD is allegedly a rape allegory (the said can/has been said about Amon's removing of people's bending).

 

[Rylot]

I haven't seen all of Steven Universe yet, so I'll just throw my hat in Clarence. Jeff's parents are just living their regular lives like anyone else, which is a rarity for LGBT on TV. Similar to the Paranorman in its depiction.

That's a really good example. You can't really claim it's fan servicy like some have claimed Korra was. No big deal made about it. Just seen as normal. Really the only criticism I can see leveled at it, is the abundant use of stereotypical flannel.

To be fair, the stereotypical "Butch lesbian" does exist, and it's just as unfair to marginalize them just because they're cliche.

Yeah, I can see it as annoying that if they're Lesbians they have to be butch, or as his other mothers a Hippy. But it's cool to see either way. Also was Googling pictures of his mother's because I couldn't remember what the non-beflanneled mother looked like and I now remember this scene:

Granted it's played for laughs but this show is completely fine with guys kissing too, which seems a lot rarer than girlxgirl stuff.

Oh Captcha if you tell me to describe something it's always gonna be 'balls'

 

[Fox12]

snip

To be fair, it's not really the shows fault. I've never been a fan of musicals, even the Disney ones. I probably should watch this, though, since the internet assures me it's the best thing ever. I do like the way the characters are portrayed.

Edit: I do hope the protagonist does more then bring snacks. It's Shinji all over again!

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

snip

To be fair, it's not really the shows fault. I've never been a fan of musicals, even the Disney ones. I probably should watch this, though, since the internet assures me it's the best thing ever. I do like the way the characters are portrayed.

Edit: I do hope the protagonist does more then bring snacks. It's Shinji all over again!

Steven is pretty useful for being a kid with very little to no control over his powers, he's also kind of a lovable goof-ball. It plays pretty well in the show actually, he's often more capable than he, or the gems think he is, other times the failures are no huge deal. All in all SU is a very well put together as far as cartoons go. It even puts Adventure Time and Regular Show to shame for consistency while being able to maintain an adventure of the week style.

 

[QuiB25]

A reveal after 3/4 of a series that both main female characters are bi would been a bad writing for a porno, nevermind a 52 episodes epic, there is something in fiction called "establishing facts".

Right, how dare they have two characters develop a relationship throughout the entire thing and end with them starting their romantic journery together, when they should have been flirting this entire time for the sake of certain people who apparently need all character's sexualities explicitly detailed at the earliest possible moment.

If you want to understand why people disagree with you, it'd be better to not throw their views into such an extreme. Most people don't need these sorts of things super explicit, but we need something to go off of.

Most evidence of their relationship before the finale IIRC happens offscreen (Asami taking care of Korra/Korra writing to Asami), which doesn't give us much time to reflect on the nature of their relationship.

The only two times prior to the finale that I considered they might feel romantically toward one another was when Korra was driving around with Asami (the "it's nice to have a girlfriend" comment) and Korra blushing after Asami compliments her. I eventually interpreted the first at face value (as far as I know, there wasn't any girls her age where she grew up). The blush surprised me a little, but then I just thought "hey, she doesn't seem to be the person that puts a lot of energy into her appearance (messy hair, etc.), and I don't think I've seen anyone her age compliment her appearance before, so she might have just been taken off guard a little bit."

I'm not saying it's wrong to see a relationship at this point, but to jump to that sort of conclusion, I'd need a little more. Something that I can't explain away so easily with Korra's personality/upbringing. This is coming from someone who didn't need Bryke to confirm the relationship after seeing the finale.

 

[QuiB25]

I haven't seen all of Steven Universe yet, so I'll just throw my hat in Clarence. Jeff's parents are just living their regular lives like anyone else, which is a rarity for LGBT on TV. Similar to the Paranorman in its depiction.

That's a really good example. You can't really claim it's fan servicy like some have claimed Korra was. No big deal made about it. Just seen as normal. Really the only criticism I can see leveled at it, is the abundant use of stereotypical flannel.

To be fair, the stereotypical "Butch lesbian" does exist, and it's just as unfair to marginalize them just because they're cliche.

Yeah, I can see it as annoying that if they're Lesbians they have to be butch, or as his other mothers a Hippy. But it's cool to see either way. Also was Googling pictures of his mother's because I couldn't remember what the non-beflanneled mother looked like and I now remember this scene:

Granted it's played for laughs but this show is completely fine with guys kissing too, which seems a lot rarer than girlxgirl stuff.

Oh Captcha if you tell me to describe something it's always gonna be 'balls'

That show's nonchalant attitude toward LGBT relationships is refreshing.

While the guys kissing was part of the joke, it wasn't the butt of the joke. Clarence's teacher can't prove to anyone that she has a life outside being a teacher, so of COURSE the hunky guy she sees waiting for her blind date is with someone else. The fact that she feels the need to say "good for them" kind of adds to the farce of her night, if that makes any sense.

It would help if there was an example of a male-male gay relationship in a cartoon that wasn't defined by a joke, though.

 

[Drops a Sweet Katana]

As much as I loved Legend of Korra overall, I don't think they did Korrasami, or really any of the relationships, particularly well. None of them had a great deal of compelling build-up and many of the conflicts seemed pretty forced.

I haven't seen Stephen Universe, but I've heard good things and have been meaning to watch it.