LGBT in children's cartoons: Who did it better?

[Rylot]

That show's nonchalant attitude toward LGBT relationships is refreshing.

Very much agreed. And I do agree they weren't making fun of gays, but it was part of the joke to make it more shocking and therefore more funny.

Off-topic: Now that I looked at it more closely I'm pretty sure the shorter guy is also a hairdresser at Clerance's mother's salon. Really love it when shows well show minor characters having a life outside of where they interact with the main cast.

 

[Saetha]

*does word search for "trans"*

*two results in three pages*

You know, if you're gonna talk about LGBT stuff in children's cartoons, the opening post should at least cover more than just L. I'm seeing a tad bit of G but no BT. this post [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.877652-LGBT-in-childrens-cartoons-Who-did-it-better?page=3#22102655] already covered my feelings on bi and trans erasure in LGBT, so I guess I'll just say that I honestly think LoK did it better. It seemed like a more genuine, human experience between Korra and Asami. Thats just my opinion, anyways. Kids already get pretty unrealistic and unhealthy portrayals of relationships in most shows, so one that manages to be more grounded (for a show about people with superpowers) while also being a queer relationship gets respect from me.

Well, Korra and Asami are obviously bisexual, they just happen to be in a same-sex relationship. So...

And, well, unless you count non-binaries are trans (In which case Steven Universe should also cover that) I can't really think of any examples of trans characters from children's cartoons, and I can't discuss and compare examples that don't exist. There's a discussion to be had about that, sure, but it's not the discussion that's being had here.

 

[Redryhno]

*does word search for "trans"*

*two results in three pages*

You know, if you're gonna talk about LGBT stuff in children's cartoons, the opening post should at least cover more than just L. I'm seeing a tad bit of G but no BT. this post [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.877652-LGBT-in-childrens-cartoons-Who-did-it-better?page=3#22102655] already covered my feelings on bi and trans erasure in LGBT, so I guess I'll just say that I honestly think LoK did it better. It seemed like a more genuine, human experience between Korra and Asami. Thats just my opinion, anyways. Kids already get pretty unrealistic and unhealthy portrayals of relationships in most shows, so one that manages to be more grounded (for a show about people with superpowers) while also being a queer relationship gets respect from me.

Uh...if you leave off the T of LGBT, I've seen you go off the rails that it's not being involved, and now you're starting to complain that it's not being discussed when there's not really any discussion that can exactly be had, trans characters aren't exactly a thing in kid animation, beyond maybe a handful of manga from the 80's and I think like three that are currently in production at the moment, none of which really fit the criteria involved in this thread considering they have pretty adult themes in them that can make Berserk look downright childlike in comparison.

Not to mention, LGBT gets the idea across alot easier and faster than typing everything out every time, especially considering this was originally a Korra v Steven Universe thread on which handled those issues better...

I mean, do you have anything to contribute for the discussion of Trans in kid's animation? To kick it off, as it were? I'd assume you'd have a better knowledge of it than nearly everyone else in this thread after all.

 

[Schadrach]

*as I understand it*

They are non-binary, present female and accept female pronouns.
Basically, they came to Earth, people called them female and they rolled with it.[footnote]They probably didn't give too many shits about what the people of Earth thought of them considering they presumably came in order to conquer or consume our resources[/footnote]

That sounds about right, though given that their bodies are hard-light projections from their gems (they literally don't have a "real" body outside the gem itself, and can design their generally stable form whenever they regenerate however they choose, in addition to some shapeshifting) I found it a bit weird that they all present as female, humanoid, and mammalian, excluding the damaged ones. I feel like there's a reason for that, somewhere, or else we'd see more diversity in general form of gems.

What gems look like to each other is a different story, but they apparently seem to identify by gem type "A pearl" as in there is more than one pearl and less emphasis on individuality. There was an episode with a homeworld gem who mistook Steven for his mother, because presumably they identify each other by looking at the gem type rather than by looking at the face or body.

Yeah, when Jasper shows up (the homeworld gem you mention) she refers to the Crystal Gems by type and grammatically like she's referring to them as an example of a general kind ("an undercooked amethyst" for example -- notably synthetic amethyst is made by irradiating quartz with iron impurities). Also note the character design similarities between Jasper and Amethyst -- jasper is an aggregate composed mostly of quartz with iron impurities and chalcedony. I can't imagine that's coincidental.

As for how gems reproduce, the show hasn't gone into detail on that yet though they are (as seen with Steven) able to change their biology enough to produce offspring with humans (they have shape-shifting abilities to an extent), though that is shown as being almost unheard of in gem society.

Hey it's a fun show to over analyze okay

[/quote]

I disagree about gem reproduction. The first episode where they went to Kindergarten made it pretty clear how Amethyst was born, she slid out of her hole in the place with all the machines that look suspiciously like bacteriophage viruses. A later episode reveals that those machines infuse natural gemstones with...something that makes them into Gems and that if they hadn't shut the process down it would have destroyed the world.

Steven is unique, as far as the series has let on. He's the only human-gem hybrid. Where it gets weird is that he can do some of the stuff that logically depends on being a hard-light projection, like shapeshifting and fusion. Especially being able to fuse with a regular human, which as Pearl put it: "That's impossible! Or at least inappropriate."

 

[sumanoskae]

I haven't seen Steven Universe, but I can be pretty secure that it's a better example than Korra. I wouldn't even call the relationship a romance; even the depth of their friendship was informed; Korra just din't feel comfortable sending letters to anyone besides Asami... for some reason. The romantic aspect of the relationship is only ever implied; Mako and Korra were lip-locking on screen for a whole season. Being pen pals and starring longingly into each other's eyes does not constitute a torrid, passionate affair.

I ultimately can't call the relationship an example of homosexuality in media aimed at children, because it worked so hard to maintain plausible deniability. A child who doesn't already have a concept of homosexuality wouldn't look twice at the relationship.

 

[sumanoskae]

One episode of my little pony has more les yay than the entire Korra series

What is "les yay"? Less "yay"? As in, "Hooray! Yay!" or as in "Pass me the mirror and that line of yay." ?

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HoYay

 

[Davroth]

The Gems in Steven Universe don't have a gender, they just happen to look like human females. Based on that, I'd say Korra did it leagues better, since their characters are actually humans and not alien gem stones that assume human shaped bodies. It's an alien species that procreates using .

And even if we assume that Gems were gendered and all female, or that it was supposed to have implications for LGTB representation in children's cartoons, Ruby and Sapphire look like children and the most we get is a kiss on the forehead.. I'm not sure I'd call that a big stride.. If that counts, then we might as well throw in this scene from the second Equestria Girls movie, with "we are totally just good friends" Lyra and Bon Bon..

Such a progressive movie.

Seriously, though... I guess the Simpsons don't count as a children's cartoon anymore? Because they had plenty of episodes dealing with LGBT issues ages ago, and by that I mean when I was a kid.

 

[soren7550]

... Korra just din't feel comfortable sending letters to anyone besides Asami... for some reason. ...

My guess would be that Korra only wrote to Asami was because she'd be the least likely to overreact. Mako probably would have freaked a bit and want to go to Korra, and Bolin likely would have cried and spazed a bit while wanting to run to Korra.

So yeah, this was another 'see, they were building a romantic relationship!' moment that I just didn't buy for that reason.

 

[QuiB25]

The Gems in Steven Universe don't have a gender, they just happen to look like human females. Based on that, I'd say Korra did it leagues better, since their characters are actually humans and not alien gem stones that assume human shaped bodies. It's an alien species that procreates using .

And even if we assume that Gems were gendered and all female, or that it was supposed to have implications for LGTB representation in children's cartoons, Ruby and Sapphire look like children and the most we get is a kiss on the forehead.. I'm not sure I'd call that a big stride.. If that counts, then we might as well throw in this scene from the second Equestria Girls movie, with "we are totally just good friends" Lyra and Bon Bon..

Such a progressive movie.

Seriously, though... I guess the Simpsons don't count as a children's cartoon anymore? Because they had plenty of episodes dealing with LGBT issues ages ago, and by that I mean when I was a kid.

The characters in the Simpsons are bright yellow. Humans are not bright yellow. Therefore, it has no implications for a child's understanding of LGBT relationships.

 

[Pyramid Head]

I haven't seen Steven Universe, but I can be pretty secure that it's a better example than Korra. I wouldn't even call the relationship a romance; even the depth of their friendship was informed; Korra just din't feel comfortable sending letters to anyone besides Asami... for some reason. The romantic aspect of the relationship is only ever implied; Mako and Korra were lip-locking on screen for a whole season. Being pen pals and starring longingly into each other's eyes does not constitute a torrid, passionate affair.

I ultimately can't call the relationship an example of homosexuality in media aimed at children, because it worked so hard to maintain plausible deniability. A child who doesn't already have a concept of homosexuality wouldn't look twice at the relationship.

I've discussed this before on page one, but thanks for being a good example of why Korrasami went kind of underrated. You missed pretty much every bit of subtext. When Mako and Korra weren't lip-locking they were either fighting or ignoring each other. The series was one of few that recognized there's a difference between a crush and a relationship, showing the initial love triangle as stupid teen crushes but trying to build up the relationship between Korra and Asami as a friendship that evolved into a relationship. They went for a subtle, more natural approach.

Hence why it may have been better off as something other than a kids show. Even if it weren't a bisexual relationship most people would STILL miss the clues since they're too used to Disney's garbage.

 

[Edl01]

Revolutionary Girl Utena in 1997...What? it aired in a prime time slot for kids and parents to watch...even if it was in Japan.

OT: I like Korra but I've never seen Steven Universe, although I read recently that the series has quite a few Utena references sprinkled throughout it so I'm definitely going to give it a go eventually.

 

[SilverUchiha]

Never seen Steven Universe.

That said, tough to compare Korra with anything. The show was so tied down and held back by Nickelodeon, it was impossible for that show to actually have a voice its own or do anything remotely risque. The Korrasami thing is arguably from left-field, but I just think they weren't given enough time or resources to properly build it up and make it into something EVERYONE wanted or expected. More episodes to flesh out characters and less fucking Nickelodeon bullshit would have made the show hundreds of times better. Korra is a great show, but a good example of how a production company can fuck over the writers, artists, and talent that make the shows great.

 

[DudeistBelieve]

I haven't seen all of Steven Universe yet, so I'll just throw my hat in Clarence. Jeff's parents are just living their regular lives like anyone else, which is a rarity for LGBT on TV. Similar to the Paranorman in its depiction.

That's a really good example. You can't really claim it's fan servicy like some have claimed Korra was. No big deal made about it. Just seen as normal. Really the only criticism I can see leveled at it, is the abundant use of stereotypical flannel.

To be fair, the stereotypical "Butch lesbian" does exist, and it's just as unfair to marginalize them just because they're cliche.

Yeah, I can see it as annoying that if they're Lesbians they have to be butch, or as his other mothers a Hippy. But it's cool to see either way. Also was Googling pictures of his mother's because I couldn't remember what the non-beflanneled mother looked like and I now remember this scene:

Granted it's played for laughs but this show is completely fine with guys kissing too, which seems a lot rarer than girlxgirl stuff.

Oh Captcha if you tell me to describe something it's always gonna be 'balls'

Spencer Rothbell said on Twitter that the orignal storyboard for the clarence cartoon had them out right kiss instead of on the cheek but the CN censors objected.

Which is odd... Genderless but clearly female designed aliens are okay, but two dudes? Nopes.

 

[DudeistBelieve]

I'm gonna have to go with none of the above for a very simple reason, very badly skewed representation that boils down to this:

L: "Sure we can at least show that two girls are together in someway, because two women kissing is hawt."
G: "Well if we're very discreet about it we can maybe kinda show some, because most people are okay with gay guys now."
B: "Lulz! Nope! How do we even show that!?/Bi doesn't exist!"
T: "All of the nope! No, trans doesn't exist/is too gross and weird to show!"

This is due in large part to L&G working as hard in the LGBT community as it does to erase the identities of bi and trans people, especially trans people. The other side of the coin is how "acceptable" showing lesbian characters is compared to even gay characters, which is mostly driven by the image of two women kissing being "hot" to men. That sort of thing is really skewing the representation in a awkward and discriminatory ways.

LoK bungled it's same-sex relationship with just awful writing, doesn't matter how restrictive Nick is in this case, it was just badly done. Steven Universe is better by a long way and paws it off on the crystal gems being a mono-sex/gender alien species, though that brings up some potentially disturbing questions about Steven's conception. Though that last part isn't anything that hasn't already been done, see Spock from Star Trek. Clarence probably pulled it off best but there are a couple of problems with it: The first is that Jeff's moms seem to be a stereotypical representation of a butch/dyke and fem/lipstick relationship. The second being the implication this is screwing Jeff up as seen in his MASSIVE OCD issues and his plethora of phobias, thus playing into the idea that a same sex couple can't properly raise a child. The latter is probably purely unintentional, but it still plays badly.

So yeah still going with a big fat; "none of them do it better they all suck at it," position. Then again this is pretty much broad across all media, not just cartoons.

It's not like Sumo or Clarence are particularly well adjusted either. Clarence is a moron, Sumo is poor as dirt. If anything Jeff is the only one with a future ahead of him.

 

[sumanoskae]

I've discussed this before on page one, but thanks for being a good example of why Korrasami went kind of underrated. You missed pretty much every bit of subtext.

Alright, enlighten me.

When Mako and Korra weren't lip-locking they were either fighting or ignoring each other.

Okay... I never said that Mako and Korra had a healthy relationship, and I'm not clear on how that makes the relationship between Korra and Asami more romantic.

The series was one of few that recognized there's a difference between a crush and a relationship, showing the initial love triangle as stupid teen crushes

Yeah, I'm clear on the fact that Mako and Korra have no actual chemistry. So Korra and Asami, then?

but trying to build up the relationship between Korra and Asami as a friendship that evolved into a relationship. They went for a subtle, more natural approach.

Which consisted of what?

Hence why it may have been better off as something other than a kids show. Even if it weren't a bisexual relationship most people would STILL miss the clues since they're too used to Disney's garbage.

I haven't been a huge Disney fan since I was a kid, and I didn't notice any distinctive romantic subtext. So either the writers took note of the fandom's raging hard-on's for the pairing and decided to go with it at the last minute, or they planned the whole thing out and like half the people watching didn't even notice.

Subtlety is not an inherently good or bad thing, it's just a tool; people nowadays have a tendency to confuse it for an end in and of itself, but being too subtle with your storytelling is just as bad as being too overt. It's a balancing act, not vertical climb.

If an important and dramatic part of your story is too subtle, it just becomes obtuse; people can't form a connection to it or learn anything from it, because they're never certain of what it's supposed to actually mean.

See, what something could be is a matter of perspective. I can most certainly imagine a basically plausible version of Legend of Korra where Asami and Korra fall in love, if I was working off of confirmation bias. But I could also imagine a version of the story in which Iroh has was secretly orchestrating the actions of the Red Lotus from the spirit world, in order to weaken Korra enough for Kuvira to take over and unify the four nations.

My favorite example of this is The End of Evangelion, the story of which was presented almost entirely via symbolism, much of which you would need to have knowledge of theology to understand. The lack of a coherent plot didn't make the story more interesting, it just made it confusing. You could interpret it any which way you wanted, but none of them are satisfying because none of them are true; none of them can be attributed to the story itself.

If Korra and Asami's sizzling romantic tension had been less subtle and more emotionally involving maybe I would have actually cared about it.