Lifting Masks = Back to Getting Down With The Sickness

Bartholomew

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The grievous bodily harm in the real world event that sparked this was that people were fraudulently given shots and told that they were being conferred resistance to a potentially lethal and highly communicable disease. You equated that to receiving a saline shot in a double blind study in which the participants were aware that they may or may not be given a saline shot. You're attempt to make that comparison has absolutely squat to do with the event in the first place or the nature of the legal issues involved with the people hit by that fraud.
You said "fraud" twice in this paragraph, and then once more in the following paragraph that I did not quote. I agree that it is fraud, not that it is harm. I agree that the fraud could potentially result in harm, just like a placebo shot that one consents to can potentially result in harm. Since you cannot consent to grievous bodily harm, a fact that the lawyers and ethics committees involved in the double-blind study probably considered, I don't think that they would have knowingly opened themselves up to this accusation. Therefore, I don't think that receiving a placebo shot in any context constitutes grievous bodily harm.

We have both made our cases for whether or not this constitutes grievous bodily harm. I think my logic is pretty clear.
All that is left is to either present further evidence or wait for the courts to decide.
 

Satinavian

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Yeah, not doing this again.

Anyway, what's German law for knowingly having an STD and having sex with people when lying about it?

Seems like a good template for prosecution. In Montana it would be several thousand misdemeanor charges.
Iirc it is handled the same way. Not feeling like looking for examples though, only going by distant memory.

But well, gievous bodily harm is what the authorities decided to go for in this case, it is not treatred as a surprising decision in the media and more like what was expected and i don't care much if it would be lighter in Common Law jurisdictions.
 

Agema

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Proud Boys are in the mix

Anti-mask/anti-mask rally in LA
My general feeling is that groups like the Proud Boys are really just groups for dickheads who want to hurt people and damage stuff: the advantage of being a member of such a group is a sense of brotherhood, safety in numbers and moral legitimacy that is lacking from just randomly picking fights.
 

Phoenixmgs

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Nah I like the double protection. Also if you are protected from the alpha variant you are not protected from the delta variant.
What YOU like and what you FORCE on EVERYONE are 2 different things, there's a such thing as CHOICE. And the 2nd part isn't true. The only way to become super immune to the Indian (delta) variant is to get the Indian variant. If you got covid before and it wasn't the Indian variant or you got any of the vaccines, you're protection (which is still great btw) to the Indian variant is basically the same. The vaccines are based of the OG wild type virus, why would they give better immunity to the Indian variant than natural immunity?


You quoted things that are true. They masked up against the flu epidemic that was emerging to save the war effort, they stopped masking up after the war effort, the next wave hit and started wiping people out. They even tried masking up again, but people threw shitfits. They put up with it in war time, but not in peace.

If you knew history or could read, you'd have known this all already. You'd also know that areas that had stronger health guidelines generally did better.
Pandemics have infection waves, that's normal. Where is the evidence that masking worked during the Spanish Flu? Because there is no evidence.

"Pointing out countries that used masks to control infections doesn't count as countries using masks to control infections."

I'm not posting again that even continental SE Asian countries outperformed the rest of the world. As far as I can tell you're looking for an example of a country ravaged by COVID that "fixes" it with masks. Which is the stupidest, most idiotic, inane, moronic, brain-dead, ridiculous, ignorant, foolish, asinine, dopy, dim, vacuous, senseless position possible.

Don't let your brain get eaten by Tim Pool's beanie too. How do you stop a virus from coming into a country, especially one with land border that can be walked across?

WEAR A MASK TO PREVENT INFECTIONS IN THE FIRST PLACE, AND IT DOESN'T BECOME A PROBLEM.

Why is this hard?
New Zealand didn't mask and controlled the virus. What makes you think masks are integral or important or just somewhat effective?
 

Phoenixmgs

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So?

First of all masks aren't 100% protective, just like washing your hands isn't. That doesn't mean it doesn't add up as a protective measure. Secondly, the amount of people, their proximity, and the amount of (international) transit is going to differ from state to state. Which is likely why New York is near the top and Texas is lower down - I'm no expert but I don't think Texas is too popular among tourists. Then there's the health care quality from state to state and how many people can actually afford it.

Nobody is making masks out to be the be all end all when it comes to preventing the spread of a pandemic, it's simply the easiest protective measure one can take. And when a pandemic is this aggressive it takes little effort to just put one on and help out in the easiest way one can.
Some people think masks are very effective when they are probably at the very best like 5% effective, which means that's 95% ineffective. People are wearing masks outside acting like they do anything there when we know they don't. And if you have people going out doing things because they think masks work well, that's not a good thing either. I'm merely asking for some actual proof that they work over a year into this and there isn't no such proof that I've seen.


Yes, you can have more than 4000 IUs a day: some of those people also develop hypercalcaemia (kidney stones, high blood pressure, etc.). This is what we in the field call "therapeutic range": the dosage range between the minimum amount to deliver a therapeutic benefit and maximum amount to avoid adverse effects, and hence the recommended dosages.
Who got hypercalceamia at say 5,000 IUs? Nobody. People have literally taken hundreds of thousands of vitamin d (by accident) and a few people got that.

I do not have the time and inclination to teach you pharmacokinetics on this discussion forum - it's a big topic. But you're making suggestions that don't necessarily make a lot of sense in the context of treatment.
I don't care how pharmacokinetics works, the fact that people with vitamin d deficiency don't just get one big dose and are back to normal levels means it doesn't do what you said it did.

Are you sure about that? You shouldn't be.

It's very likely some doctors do not give their patients weekly vitamin D tests throughout treatment, and many do not thoroughly scrutinise the literature. This is why much of why treatment guidelines and clinical meetings exist - to give information to physicians so they can spend their very expensive time treating people rather than all reading mounds of articles on how to treat people. Let's also remember some otherwise seemingly competent doctors also believe stuff that is unsupported, implausible, or even outrageous. Pierre Kory, for instance, might in many ways be a good pulmonary physician but his attachment to ivermectin was irrational, and he's just a figurehead of a much wider irrationality amongst many other medical doctors. As we said before, this is why we often don't let individual doctors do their own thing: they work as part of clinical teams for extra advice, feedback, support.
If 50,000 doses raised your levels so high, they would be through the roof after 2 months when the person came in for their follow-up vitamin d test. And we there's a couple doctors that took 2,000 - 3,000 / day and their levels weren't even where they wanted them to be.

No, that's not what you originally said.

But this is a complex issue, as the relative risk of individuals depends on circumstances and behaviours and better viewed in that context.
It's what I meant. If droplets were a main driver of infection, masks would work amazingly well.

You mean all the ones you've already been provided with and just ignored, and your simple reluctance to read recent scientific reviews?
I haven't seen any that didn't have tons of other variables that could explain the results. There's also inconsistencies in said studies as some studies show infections increased after masks because if you initiated a mandate when cases were dropping, it looks like masks helped but if a mandate was just before a rise in cases, then you can conclude masks caused more infections. The studies are complete shit. It's pretty funny how the longer period you look at, the worse and worse the mask data looks. If masks were a drug, you'd say there's no data to recommend it. Why can't you stay consistent in what you deem as proof? If you say there's no enough data for vitamin d, there's no fucking chance there's enough data for masks.


The Blue States? Those heavily urbanized states with larger population density? Those states?
That's the fucking point, there's so many contributing factors. Just like you say Somewhere-ville initiated a masked mandate and cases went down, and what about all the other restrictions in place? How do we know what actually contributed to cases going down when you're throwing paint at the wall and don't even know what is sticking? There's places that initiated mask mandates and had cases go up as well.


No you don't, or I wouldn't have had to correct you. Get the fuck over yourself.
How the fuck did you correct me? I don't give 2 shits about the mechanics of airborne nor did I ever claim to know. I care that if I'm in a room with someone infected, I can get it without droplet infection. I really couldn't care less exactly how that happens but the fact that it happens. Same thing working in IT, you don't need to know exactly what the problem is (from like programming code to machine language and whatnot) to figure out how to fix it.


Yes.

Another trick here is that you can manufacture a specific result by selecting the cut-off point for what you consider as the states "with the most deaths per capita". For instance, if you decided that this meant the states above the US average, then there are more red than blue in the list.

And let's face it, it's pretty laughable to connect this claim to masks given the top two states in per capita deaths were the places the pandemic hammered first, with much of the infection spread before masking was recommended.
And it's pretty fucking shitty right now blaming governors for doing a bad job on covid when their people haven't gotten vaccinated (unless the governor/government gave the public misinformation themselves). Also, on Feb 29th of last year, Fauci told a NYC news station that people can just go about like normal and there was no danger. What about blaming Fauci for bad messaging as to why those places blew up. I fucking know covid was around in February, it wasn't hard to deduce that. I thought twice about going places in February because I knew it was around. Marty Makary was trying to get the message out to do shit in January but you apparently don't like him even though he's right far more than Fauci is.
 

Buyetyen

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How the fuck did you correct me? I don't give 2 shits about the mechanics of airborne nor did I ever claim to know. I care that if I'm in a room with someone infected, I can get it without droplet infection. I really couldn't care less exactly how that happens but the fact that it happens. Same thing working in IT, you don't need to know exactly what the problem is (from like programming code to machine language and whatnot) to figure out how to fix it.
You're so full of shit, dude. I'm out.
 

Dalisclock

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Am now utterly convinced Phoenixmgs has spent their life savings on shares in Sunny D juice.
My eyes long since glazed over due to the rampant obsession with Vitamin D over masks, vaccines or pretty much anything else.

Its like watching an essential oils Evangelical except with Vitamin D.
 

crimson5pheonix

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Pandemics have infection waves, that's normal. Where is the evidence that masking worked during the Spanish Flu? Because there is no evidence.
Already posted, learn to read.

New Zealand didn't mask and controlled the virus. What makes you think masks are integral or important or just somewhat effective?
Already posted, learn to read.
 
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Agema

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Who got hypercalceamia at say 5,000 IUs? Nobody. People have literally taken hundreds of thousands of vitamin d (by accident) and a few people got that.
No, actually there are examples of hypercalcaemia at 5,000 IUs Vit D daily, although normally associated with other conditions and intake of other supplements. But that is after all the point of recommended doses, precisely to ensure people get enough without getting too much.

I don't care how pharmacokinetics works, the fact that people with vitamin d deficiency don't just get one big dose and are back to normal levels means it doesn't do what you said it did.
I do not think that announcing you are completely ignorant is a good gambit to establish your credibility. But at least you are finally admitting your ignorance.

If 50,000 doses raised your levels so high, they would be through the roof after 2 months when the person came in for their follow-up vitamin d test.
And the fact you think that is precisely why it would help if you understood pharmacokinetics. Clearance occurs usually through first order kinetics (exponential decay). The more you have, the faster you clear it. So if someone clears 30% of a drug daily, starting the drug at day 1, 50mg once weekly actually means that on day 7 they have less drug in their body than someone taking 4mg daily. They take another 50mg day 8, but again they are below the person taking the daily dose at day 12. And so on.

That basic principle holds with vitamin D, although it's rather more complex.

And we there's a couple doctors that took 2,000 - 3,000 / day and their levels weren't even where they wanted them to be.
Sure. Not everyone is equal - they may have poor absorption or metabolism, and also, "the levels they wanted them to be" sounds awfully vague. Maybe those levels are stupidly and unnecessarily high.

It's what I meant. If droplets were a main driver of infection, masks would work amazingly well.
Yes, now put that in the context of you declaring masks are unnecessary outside, even in crowded places where people are in close proximity.

I haven't seen any that didn't have tons of other variables that could explain the results...
Yawn. Again ignoring the bigger picture.

And it's pretty fucking shitty right now blaming governors for doing a bad job on covid when their people haven't gotten vaccinated (unless the governor/government gave the public misinformation themselves).
What about, what about, what about, what about...?
 
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Agema

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Sunny D isn't juice. It's water, sugar and brake cleaner.
I found it strangely drinkable - albeit in an acrid, synthetic chemical sort of way. I think after an early surge its sales collapsed (bad PR when someone turned orange from its beta-carotene content?), and was withdrawn from the UK market.
 

tstorm823

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I found it strangely drinkable - albeit in an acrid, synthetic chemical sort of way. I think after an early surge its sales collapsed (bad PR when someone turned orange from its beta-carotene content?), and was withdrawn from the UK market.
I think it's my second least favorite beverage ever, after unflavored coconut water.
 
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Dalisclock

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Booster shot inbound.

I am getting one as soon as I am eligible.
Give me all the shots. I don't fucking care.

If it takes 2 boosters to put me to 110% resistance, fucking do it. At least until my kid can get vaccinated(she's 4 right now, so probably her 5th birthday at earliest).
 

Adam Jensen

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Vitamin D
Vitamin D is important for immunity, and it does seem to be important for COVID-19. But it does not mean that you shouldn't get vaccinated and that you shouldn't wear a mask. But if you ask me should you use vitamin D supplementation, I'd say absolutely. In fact, I suspect that supplementing with a high dose of vitamin D could be the reason why I didn't get COVID-19 despite living with my sister who had it. I was convinced that I also had it and that I was simply asymptomatic, but when I had my blood checked at the end of 14 day isolation, there was nothing there. Vitamin D is absolutely a tool in your toolbox that you should use. Of course, you should first check your vitamin D levels and talk with your physician. But in most cases it is safe to use.
 
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McElroy

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Give me all the shots. I don't fucking care.

If it takes 2 boosters to put me to 110% resistance, fucking do it.
So... How long until the rage against current anti-vaxxers reaches the ones that don't want their 3rd and 4th etc. shots? Sure, if the immunity really is so short-lived that uneven vaccine distribution won't cover enough people at any given time, there is an argument for booster shots, but y'know, the hate is inevitable.