Lovecraft vs. Warhammer!

[Therumancer]

Strictly speaking there are a lot of analogies here. Warhammer is a giant rip off, errr, homage, to Michael Moorcock's "Champion Eternal" cycle (which includes more than just Elric) right down to the taint of chaos, and how a lot of the units happen to look. Moorcock was himself inspired by HP Lovecraft and other, similar writers. Some of his earliest work like "Sojan The Swordsman" was created due to him not caring for some of the limitations placed on the mythologies of other writers who allowed their characters to be borrowed. All told it was a pretty incestuous period of writing, even involving a bit of necrophilia in using the work and being directly inspired/ripping off people who were dead. Copyright laws and such weren't quite what they are now, and the community actually encouraged this to an extent with a lot of odd crossovers and things being borrowed sometimes just occuring based on an exchanged letter or handshake.

The point here being that both universes have a lot of overlap in their concepts.

Overall, I'd give this one to Lovecraft's mythology. Cthulhu himself is actually a pussy, he's just the high priest of the old ones from a race that happened to colonize earth during the extensive pre-history. Cthulhu not only got stunned by a boat, but his entire race was defeated by the Yithians, who were themselves driven off earth by the Flying Polyps.

On the other hand when you start getting into some of the concepts, and don't argue the idea that they are all the same beings under differant names, in differant worlds (which could happen), the bottom line is that the forces of Chaos in Warhammer get spanked regularly, including the chaos gods when they run into other god-class opposition. Heck, Sigmar did a bit of a job on them, and he was a mortal at one point. In Lovecraft's mythology part of the terror is that there are no benevolent powers that can stand against them, these things are pretty much the actual truth of the universe, that's why it's cosmic horror. Deities like Hastur basically ARE the center of the universe... and well, the chaos gods might be powerful entities, but if they both existed they wouldn't hold a candle to that.

In the spirit of things an actual Lovecraft/Warhammer crossover might be an unheard of situation with say Chaos and the rest of the world actually working together to protect reality (which can't be corrupted and conquered if something else takes it all over, or worse yet... eats it), you know where the Dwarf gods or Sigmar (via Sigmarite visions) actually tell their minions to coordinate with their enemies, as there is now something worse than the encroaching chaos wastes.

Such an alliance couldn't KILL the ultimate enemies, but could perhaps imprison them, lock them out of the dimension (for a time... only for a time), and defeat the minions trying to give them full access to the world.

 

[nasteypenguin]

Well, can't a collection of stories still be called a book, it really just seems like semantics. The physical Necronomicon I mean. And as you can probably tell I haven't read the stories that the Necro appears in, so I only knew about the physical one. I didn't neccesarily mean to start with one of his longer 'story compilations', I actually think I had a thread on here about which 'compilation' I should start with. Mountians seemed like a good place to start and I think it was. I really won't mind the stories being shorter as long as they stay just as good.

I didn't mean it exactly like that, it just might be a bit confusing when you asked if anyone read the Necronomicon. It may be a name for a Lovecraft collection, but it's much more popularly known by it's fictional counterpart which is very different and a very prominant part of the mythos, you'll see when you read about it (I would still recommend The Nameless City for that.)

Actually, re-reading you're post, I think I may have misunderstood you. I was talking about the actual story of At the Mountains of Madness, I think you might have been referring to another compilation book of the same name? Both Mountains of Madness and Dream Quest (the stories, not the books) are novellas and much longer than most of his other stuff, it shouldn't make any difference but I much prefer his shorter stuff personally, I was just mentioning for the sake of interest.

Still on team Lovecraft for victory.

 

[DevilWithaHalo]

Might I suggest looking elsewhere in the 40k mythos for considerations of absurd power levels? An Alpha level psyker's will pretty much works exactly like Azatoth in Lovercraft (although on a much more tangible level).

The question is how aware does Azatoth have to be of it in order to blink it out of existence? One needs to question how well anyone could technically distinguish the Changeling because it doesn't even know what it is anymore.

I'm also curious if Azatoth could accidentally blink itself out of existence by becoming aware of itself. I'm sure the Deceiver or Tzeentch could make that happen.

Considering the Chaos gods are manifestations of the culminations of emotions and ideas from sentient races, they don't really have a specific existence which could be blinked out of existence. The very idea of removing something from existence would be a fundamental change of the dynamic of reality; which Tzeentch is the incarnation of. Sure their power level might be dramatically altered, but it/they would simply re-manifest right after. Azatoth being a sentient whateverthehellyouwanttocallit, would generate the Chaos gods by its actions.

I'm calling stalemate. Although it would be beyond awesome to see this play out in various ways.

 

[ScreamingNinja]

Or Khorne would just lay waste to his face and make him sad and die. Problem soooolved!

I don't think you understand Azathoth cannot be harmed in any way as soon as something comes in contact with Azathoth, or Azathoth even notices it exists, it no longer exists. Azathoth is an infinite being, an amorphous blight of nethermost confusion which blasphemes and bubbles at the center of all infinity beyond space and time on a curiously environed black throne at the centre of Chaos. He created everything and if he ever becomes aware of it he will destroy it.

And yet, Khorne would rip what passes for a face off it, and spit down what is left of what it has as a neck. Winning!

Nope, that was just the delusion he had as he passed out of existence.

Nope, seems like that'd be Khorne killing him. Because if it's two mythos' facing one other, then clearly Azathoth would wake up after being fragged, destroy himself and his own universe, whilest Khorne goes back to his own. Leaving the Chaos Gods the winnars!

 

[ScreamingNinja]

Or Khorne would just lay waste to his face and make him sad and die. Problem soooolved!

his dreaming is reality, killing him would just end up wiping out reality.

but really, this is like setting a man(WH40K) in a death match against superman(lovecraft mythos).
its a "what the fuck do think was going to happen you idgit?".

and anyways, the original always beats out the cheap knockoff.

Slaanesh would shag him to death. End of story.

 

[nasteypenguin]

snip

I absolutely love the amount of thought you have put into this.

The thing about Azathoth is that he's not exactly in control of the power he has (edit: thats not quite right, it's more a case of he has so much power, he created the universe without meaning to, and without caring that he did.) If, theoretically, a choas god manifested itself infront of him and did somesort of pokemon-esque hyper beam thing into its, for lack of a better word, face, it wouldn't consciously realise that its there and poof it out of existence; it would be more like, it becomes aware of existence as a whole and thereby end it because it IS existence, or it is the dreamer of existence or something.

I'm not entirely sure about this, because then there is Yog Sothoth whom is everything as well (All-in-One and One-in-All and all that), but he's also not part of our reality, or not IN our reality, or is trapped outside of our reality... I'm going to stop there before I hurt myself, I hope someone who knows Lovecraft better than me could chime in.

However, in saying that I guess your right, if by trying to 'kill' Azathoth, it 'kills' everything else, thats as good a stalemate as you can get. Although if you look at it a another way, if its reality v reality, a 40k thing could do a suicide mission to the Lovecraft universe and end existence there by waking up Azathoth, but leaving 40k unharmed... I don't think the rules of this fight are particularly clear on, well, anything.

 

[Hero in a half shell]

Although if you look at it a another way, if its reality v reality, a 40k thing could do a suicide mission to the Lovecraft universe and end existence there by waking up Azathoth, but leaving 40k unharmed... I don't think the rules of this fight are particularly clear on, well, anything.

If that plot was ever made into a book I would buy 10 copies just for it's sheer awesomeness. How could people write cross-overs of stuff like My Little Pony/Fallout, but never think of this sort of idea.

The thought of a horde of Spacemarines, Orks and Necrons blasting their way madly through the Lovecraft universe encountering all the horrors (like those dog-things that live in time and travel through obtuse angles or something) to try and reach Azaroth while the Eldritch Abominations seep into the 40k universe and duke it out with the Chaos Gods who desperately try to stall them from dissolving the 40K universe by disrupting the very fabric of reality simply through existing. Epic.

 

[Doclector]

Who would win in a fight? Not sure.

Who would be more terrifying? Well...the chaos gods have an army. They're letting you join them. There's even sometimes an element of choice, and you may even end up with incredible power.

Lovecraft's creations do not negotiate. They do as they please, whether you like it or not. Want to join them? Form an army for them? It ain't gonna make much difference most of the time, and if they do want you on their side, it is not your choice, and it will not be a pleasant path to take.

Chaos gods would surely be terrifying, of course. What I'm saying is there's more of a chance that if you choose to give in and admit defeat, they're more likely to let you join them in some manner.

Then, of course, there's the fact that if you run around screaming about chaos gods, there's an entire empire that knows of the threat of chaos. In lovecraft's universe, if you survive, your fate is probably in a dismal asylum somewhere, screaming your warnings until they come around with the sedative again.

 

[Timedraven 117]

Actually the chaos gods have a trump card. The changeling can change into any creature it want's even gods. So he can turn into a god adn be just as powerfula dn kill them. And then kill the others. maybe.

 

[Indecipherable]

I'm a bit late to the party but this is a pretty interesting read!

The big problem I see is that Lovecraft's powers are totally inscrutible and you can't fight them. You basically can't even acknowledge they are there without your brain turning to jelly and your body dissolving. They really are a blight upon all things logical, material, and upon our known existence itself. Now, whether this is necessarily an impediment to some of the forces of Chaos remains to be seen.

IMO: too hard to even begin to guess at, it's not even an apples and oranges style debate.

 

[MrPeanut]

Since Chaos Gods are too powerful to fully enter the materium, I don't see this fight happening.

A better one would be Cthulhu and pals vs the C'tan, which would probably boil down into a never ending fight since either side can't really be killed.

 

[Silvaarius]

I know posting a reply to a topic that hasn't had a reply in 12 months, but I must say that I genuinely want to write a Warhammer 40K and Lovecraft Mythos crossover. Anyway Wouldn't, according to my limited understanding of physics, a being from one universe (GRIMDARK Future) be exempt from the natural laws of another universe? I know this might sound crazy, but I think Azathoth might not be able to erase an invading force of Imperium, Eldar, Tau, etc.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Er...what has physics got to do with it? But, yeah, the way the universes work would be incompatible, the warp doesn't exist in Lovecraft.

Anyway, in some of the older better fluff it's theorised that Chaos hasn't destroyed the world because that's no fun. Literally playing on god mode is too easy, and there's only one game going, you've got nothing to do once you've won.

 

[Greg White]

I may be off a bit on my Warhammer mythology, but didn't the Chaos gods kill the elder gods in the war of heaven?

 

[Thaluikhain]

I may be off a bit on my Warhammer mythology, but didn't the Chaos gods kill the elder gods in the war of heaven?

Slaanesh ate most of the Eldar gods in a war in heaven when Slaanesh first came into being. "The" war in heaven was between the C'tan/Necrontyr/Necrons and Old Ones/Eldar/everything else, and Chaos only sorta kinda cropped up towards the very end.

According to the fluff the Eldar "dominated" the galaxy for 60 odd million years afterwards. For a very loose definition of "dominated", in that various other races seemed to have ruled the galaxy on and off, GW wasn't big on one galaxy spanning empire per galaxy at a time.

Unless/until that's retconned.

 

[Greg White]

I may be off a bit on my Warhammer mythology, but didn't the Chaos gods kill the elder gods in the war of heaven?

Slaanesh ate most of the Eldar gods in a war in heaven when Slaanesh first came into being. "The" war in heaven was between the C'tan/Necrontyr/Necrons and Old Ones/Eldar/everything else, and Chaos only sorta kinda cropped up towards the very end.

According to the fluff the Eldar "dominated" the galaxy for 60 odd million years afterwards. For a very loose definition of "dominated", in that various other races seemed to have ruled the galaxy on and off, GW wasn't big on one galaxy spanning empire per galaxy at a time.

Unless/until that's retconned.

That's 40k's mythos. WHFB's story was a bit different since most of the other gods are just aspects of the Chaos gods.

 

[Thaluikhain]

That's 40k's mythos. WHFB's story was a bit different since most of the other gods are just aspects of the Chaos gods.

Oh, right. Well, there's much debate over the gods being aspects thing.

Anyway, the coming of chaos drove the Old Ones off or something, and the Great War against Chaos was when mumble mumble mumble Aenarion mumble.

 

[Geo Da Sponge]

I'm a little curious about people saying that Azathoth waking up and bringing an end to all of reality classes as a "win". I mean, that's just an end. He's just wiped out the battlefield and both sides, right?

 

[DoPo]

I'm a little curious about people saying that Azathoth waking up and bringing an end to all of reality classes as a "win". I mean, that's just an end. He's just wiped out the battlefield and both sides, right?

He It would still exists. Erm, maybe. But assuming Azathot does indeed wipe out everything if awoken, then that'd be 1 Lovecraftian entity standing vs none from Warhammer.

 

[Beautiful Tragedy]

"The Pantheon of the Eldar is considered to have been destroyed by the creation of Slaanesh. While the Eldar still revere all the gods and preserve their stories within the mythic cycles, they do not call on them for aid or hope for their intervention any longer."

from the lexicanum

Also;

"Cegorach (or The Laughing God), God of the Harlequins is the other surviving god of the Pantheon, the Laughing God was the trickster and artist of the pantheon. When all the other gods were destroyed, Cegorach fled before Slaanesh until Khaine rose to do battle with it. The Laughing God took this chance to escape into the realm of the Webway, as only he is said to know all the secrets of its passages. The master of the Harlequins, Cegorach is the only Eldar god that still remains in their original form."

I thought he was the only one left