Make the perfect Final Fantasy game by...

SwimmingRock

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Plinglebob said:
-snip-

As another member of the Vanille fanbase, I thought I'd come in and defend her.

On an in game level, she's annoying because she's constantly trying to lighten the mood because she's been through it before. Her most telling point in the game is when she and Sahz are going to sleep. At first she's upbeat, telling Sazh to stay on his side of the line etc. However, when he goes to sleep, she becomes scared and lonely and moves next to Sazh for comfort. Before the start of the game she was a L'Cie and being one forced her to watch her friend destroy the world. In the game, she see the same thing happening with more people. She's being jolly to try and keep everyone else jolly and away from the fact that they will inevitebly die.

On a Meta-level. She's annoying becuase she's supposed to be over the top. Each character in XIII is a deconstruction on the traditional cliches. Sazh is introduced as a stereotypical "Black Guy", Snow does things you would normally do in a computer game and gets disasterous results, Hope gives you the usual child star and shows you how he would really act and Fang shows what happens when the amnesiac hero gets found by the wrong people/no people at all. With Vanille, she's initially supposed to be the character who's always cheerful no matter what and then looks into why.
See, you claim you're defending Vanille, but both your paragraphs start with "she's annoying". I hope you understand I'm not trying to diss people who like Vanille, but I just seriously don't understand why you would, if you agree she's annoying. Also, you point out that she more or less knows what's going to happen. Yet she does nothing about it for almost the entire game. That just makes her a pointless character and wasted story potential in my eyes.

Again, I have nothing against people who like Vanille. I just genuinely cannot comprehend how your reaction to her could in any way be positive and would still like an explanation. Maybe I would even dislike the game less if somebody could explain this to me.
 

ABLb0y

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Basically, remake Final Fantasy 13, but heres a thought, instead of having a never before mentioned character come in and steal the spotlight, how about just not having Vang? (Or whatever her name is)

No offence to people who like Vang.

Oh, and not having to wait until, like, chapter ten to change the party leader.
 

DracoSuave

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Plinglebob said:
SwimmingRock said:
Greyah said:
SwimmingRock said:
OT: "Make the perfect Final Fantasy game by..." never ever making a Vanille-like character ever again ever in any game ever made by anybody ever.
But I like Vanille!
I'm sorry, but you must be purged. It's your civic duty. Know that you serve the greater good in cooperating.

Kidding aside, why? Seriously, why? Her voice is astonishingly similar to nails on a chalkboard, she's bland and pointless as a character, has nothing to contribute to the story (seriously, Fang was the only one between the two who was in any way relevant to anything) and she sucks in combat. I can't find a single redeeming quality in anything she does. Explain to me how you can not hate her.
As another member of the Vanille fanbase, I thought I'd come in and defend her.
The thing to understand about Vanille is not that she is perky and cheerful. It's that she's LYING. She isn't really happy. She is crushed by the guilt of what she has down and she's trying to AVOID it by being perky and cheerful.

EVERYTHING is her fault and she knows it. She watched Fang become Ragnarok and destroy a pretty decent chunk of Cocoon to protect her... and she remembers and Fang did not. So she lies to protect Fang from the knowledge that she is literally THE mass murderer that the ENTIRETY of Cocoon is afraid of. Remember the Pompa Sancta performance in Nautillus? Sazh is watching it like a pretty show... Vanille knows it for what it is... she was there to witness it first hand. Her actions trigger the fal'Cie Kujata to brand Dajh forcing Sazh to go to the Vestige to fulfill what he thinks is Dajh's focus. She also is directly responsible for Serah getting branded, which causes the Purge that got Hope's mother killed, and Snow and Lightning on a fool's errand to destroy Anima to try to do -something- to save Serah.

And the entire time... she knows it. She's a l'Cie from the moment she's in your party, and a lot of her 'perkyness' comes off as awkward and shifty because it IS awkward and it IS shifty. The game even reveals it slowly, and subtly. She's got a third ATB before Anima 'brands' the party. She's never actually branded in that cutscene at all! It's the little things.
 

Chimpzy_v1legacy

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Shock and Awe said:
Chrono Trigger's Music
Chrono Trigger's Gameplay
Chrono Trigger's Story
Chrono Trigger's Art style
Change the name to Chrono Trigger

Just sayin'
Most excellent suggestions, but it's very unlikely a new Chrono game will ever see the light of day.

Still, we can always dream.
 

Plinglebob

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SwimmingRock said:
Plinglebob said:
See, you claim you're defending Vanille, but both your paragraphs start with "she's annoying". I hope you understand I'm not trying to diss people who like Vanille, but I just seriously don't understand why you would, if you agree she's annoying. Also, you point out that she more or less knows what's going to happen. Yet she does nothing about it for almost the entire game. That just makes her a pointless character and wasted story potential in my eyes.

Again, I have nothing against people who like Vanille. I just genuinely cannot comprehend how your reaction to her could in any way be positive and would still like an explanation. Maybe I would even dislike the game less if somebody could explain this to me.
Ok, I probably should have started them as "She could be annoying" as personally I don't find it annoying at all. Personally, I found all the characters to be annoying when we first meet them but as the story goes on and they become more rounded, they all become more likable and Vanille also benifits from this. Also, playing the game knowing why she's like that makes her a much more sumpathetic character and easier to like. Definitely a game where the 2nd play thorugh is better then the 1st.

DracoSuave said:
The thing to understand about Vanille is not that she is perky and cheerful. It's that she's LYING. She isn't really happy. She is crushed by the guilt of what she has down and she's trying to AVOID it by being perky and cheerful.

EVERYTHING is her fault and she knows it. She watched Fang become Ragnarok and destroy a pretty decent chunk of Cocoon to protect her... and she remembers and Fang did not. So she lies to protect Fang from the knowledge that she is literally THE mass murderer that the ENTIRETY of Cocoon is afraid of. Her actions trigger the fal'Cie Kujata to brand Dajh forcing Sazh to go to the Vestige to fulfill what he thinks is Dajh's focus. She also is directly responsible for Serah getting branded, which causes the Purge that got Hope's mother killed, and Snow and Lightning on a fool's errand to destroy Anima to try to do -something- to save Serah.

And the entire time... she knows it. She's a l'Cie from the moment she's in your party, and a lot of her 'perkyness' comes off as awkward and shifty because it IS awkward and it IS shifty.
Don't you just hate it when someone puts your point across more eloquently then you ever could? :)
 

SwimmingRock

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Plinglebob said:
DracoSuave said:
The thing to understand about Vanille is not that she is perky and cheerful. It's that she's LYING. She isn't really happy. She is crushed by the guilt of what she has down and she's trying to AVOID it by being perky and cheerful.

EVERYTHING is her fault and she knows it. She watched Fang become Ragnarok and destroy a pretty decent chunk of Cocoon to protect her... and she remembers and Fang did not. So she lies to protect Fang from the knowledge that she is literally THE mass murderer that the ENTIRETY of Cocoon is afraid of. Her actions trigger the fal'Cie Kujata to brand Dajh forcing Sazh to go to the Vestige to fulfill what he thinks is Dajh's focus. She also is directly responsible for Serah getting branded, which causes the Purge that got Hope's mother killed, and Snow and Lightning on a fool's errand to destroy Anima to try to do -something- to save Serah.

And the entire time... she knows it. She's a l'Cie from the moment she's in your party, and a lot of her 'perkyness' comes off as awkward and shifty because it IS awkward and it IS shifty.
Don't you just hate it when someone puts your point across more eloquently then you ever could? :)
Okay, I'm just going to write Vanille off as one of those things that's entirely a matter of personal taste/likes. I'm assuming that to you that whole explanation translates into character depth and interesting backstory. To me it just makes her sound like a liar and a coward, which I hate in videogames as much as in real life. Maybe I just let her voice, which I find exceptionally annoying, colour my perception of the character too much; making me blind to whatever positives she may possess. How about we just agree to disagree?
 

DracoSuave

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Plinglebob said:
Ok, I probably should have started them as "She could be annoying" as personally I don't find it annoying at all. As the game goes on, she does tone it down making her a lot easier to like.
This brings up an interesting thing about FF13. The plot is simple... it's about six characters rejecting their fates, then coming to terms with their fates, then taking CHARGE of their destinies. Pretty simple, and very straight forward.

Where the story shines is in its character development, which means that characters have to grow. That's the point. So you have Sazh starting off depressed and feeling powerless. You have Snow clinging to idealism to escape from the truth. You have Lightning being an angry loner because she can't come to terms with her anger towards herself.

Every character is deeply flawed, by necessity for the narrative style. If you're playing a game that is literally about personal growth and coming to terms with oneself and you expect ANY character to start off without some major important, and realistic flaws... I can't reason with those people because they clearly don't understand what 'character growth' is about.

I don't get why Hope is so hated. Yes, he's angry, and 'emo'... cause he lost his mother that day. It takes a LONG time to get over the death of a parent, and coupled with the fact that he blames Snow for her death... well that's where he starts. By the end of it, he's come to terms with the fact his mother died to protect him, made the man he blames make an oath to keep him safe, and that said man desires fervently to atone. Grief is not pretty, and I didn't expect Hope to have a pretty character arc. I can't hate him because I understand him. He's a three-dimensional character because of his growth and his arc, which involved a lot of his own soul-searching and introspection, symbolized by Lightning's knife.

Every character in the game has either lost the one person they love the most, are about to lose the person they love the most, are realisticly afraid of losing the person they love the most, or are responsible for everyone losing who they love the most. Losing someone you love... and each deals with it in a different way. How they come to terms with it is what defines them as characters, not how hopey they are in Chapter 3. It's like thinking you understand The Bride from Kill Bill simply by watching the first fight scene, and that she must therefore only want to kill people, rather than what really defines her... the child she lost and later found.

Don't you just hate it when someone puts your point across more eloquently then you ever could? :)
Heh. Just backing you up, mate.
 

Atmos Duality

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FF6/FF9's roles and ability progression. No more of that "Tabula Rosa" horse shit. It always ends with all but three of the characters being completely fucking worthless.

(Say what you will, but at least in either FF6 or FF9 I could find a real use for almost every single character even to end-game. Very few characters were utterly superfluous. In comparison, I could have cut the cast of FF12 down to three and lose nothing; likewise with FF8. Or cut three characters from FFX, increase the standard party size to 4 and still keep all the original roles present.)

-FF12's music (it really did have a wonderful soundtrack)
Plot would have to be original (no sequels/prequels/spinoffs. I'm simply eliminating a known factor for shitty FF games) but I would strive to avoid the usual over the top anime-fan-pandering, at least until the player's characters would be capable of doing that in-game, rather than just in cutscenes.

Whose setting to rip off...er, use.
FF7's setting can't seem to decide on what it wants to do thanks to the compilation (I like to call it the "Anachronistic Anime Bullshit Cyberpunk"-setting); though I do like how FF6 handles its setting. Machines are making a big comeback and there are even modern toilets. Better still, even though the Big Bads are "cheating" by combining their machines with magical power they still look and act like machines (they fire missiles, their self buffs are machine-like despite being magical).

FF9 had a similar setting with a bit more cohesion than FF6's; however, since it was more specific and less abstract, this actually brought unwanted attention to the ever-present issue of there only being like 10 different cities in the world or one city/castle per kingdom.
 

Se7enUpMustang

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I think the best final fantasy game would combine the traits of none of the games and never be made ever and anything resembling FF in any way would be burned with lots of fire.

I think that would work perfectly.
 

Plinglebob

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DracoSuave said:
I don't get why Hope is so hated. Yes, he's angry, and 'emo'... cause he lost his mother that day. It takes a LONG time to get over the death of a parent, and coupled with the fact that he blames Snow for her death... well that's where he starts. By the end of it, he's come to terms with the fact his mother died to protect him, made the man he blames make an oath to keep him safe, and that said man desires fervently to atone. Grief is not pretty, and I didn't expect Hope to have a pretty character arc. I can't hate him because I understand him. He's a three-dimensional character because of his growth and his arc, which involved a lot of his own soul-searching and introspection, symbolized by Lightning's knife.
Sadly, its because his reactions to whats going on is realistic. In real life, his situation would make people feel sympathy towards him and so overlook the other character flaws (angry and emo) but one of the hardest thing to do in games (it seems to me anyway) is make people feel sympathy for a character. Its not helped by the fact that the "Child Hero" is a common trope and so whenever people see a kid in an adventure situation (game or film) its expected they will act a certain way.
 

Rivers Wells

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Final Fantasy 9

Ok, all honesty, rework the limit system in that game, redesign Kuja and let me get Armarant sooner and that probably would be my personal perfect Final Fantasy game.

Vivi fo' life yo.
 

DracoSuave

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My two cents?

Spend LESS time whoring the graphics and make something with a nice Ivalice-esque complex narrative. Keep the Cait Siths and Umaros and Quinas out of muh game, and instead create real characters with diverging goals, character growth, and interpersonal conflicts that mirror the themes of the greater story as a whole.

Make the world big and fill it with stuff for me to stumble into.

I think that's why I like the Ivalice games. They don't insult my intelligence. I'm free to explore as I see fit. The plots are complex, mature, and actually make me think. Was Vayne REALLY a villain? Cid? I still don't have the answer.
 

valleyshrew

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I could go on for literally hundreds of thousands of words on why XIII was a failure and how to improve a sequel, what it comes down to is adding depth of interactivity in 3 layers. Gameplay depth (strategic and fun battles, and lots of minigames), world depth (lots more towns, puzzle dungeons, vehicles, exploration, real-time physics and lots of items and locations to interact with physically etc.) and writing depth (things like radiant AI, meaningful enemies not just monsters, conversation options and plot choices like WRPG's have).

XIII failed at all of these things. Gameplay? It was merely pressing X and paradigm shifting occassionally. Took away nearly every layer of battle strategy. No limit breaks, no MP, no stealing, no armours, no formation setting, no ability system (crystarium is actually replacing the leveling system which had always been automatic and seamless before, but now it wastes 3 hours of your time pointlessly as it's linear and there are no interesting abilities anyway) and I could go on and on. There's only a few battles in the entire game that are difficult or fun to do (mission 64 really is the only one that is both imo). The equipment system was horrendous. There were no minigames except a pointless chocobo item grinding one and I guess the robot stomping one that only lasted about 30 seconds. The world? Most linear and underdeveloped world I've ever seen in an RPG. No towns turned a great culturally adventurous series into a primitive dungeon crawler with style over substance cutscenes. The writing? Really really bad plot, ok characters (I actually don't mind them, I think they were just handicapped by being in such a horrible game with such a bad plot and poorly developed world) and no interaction with the writing. Least characters in a FF game since II I think, every other one had 2-3 times as many main characters, and far more meaningful NPCs. The couple of FFXIII levels where you could chat to people may as well not have been in the game.

I like modern & sci-fi/realistic settings for FF (like VII and Versus), but I don't mind IX's setting either if it has the depth and detail the series deserves. What I don't like is the meaningless quasi-futuristic nonsensical fantasy worlds of X and XIII and to a lesser extent XII. Those are resorted too purely out of laziness. They don't have to be coherent at all in terms of technology or style and they mix together any random looking crap and the dress sense of characters has been horrible since X but that's just Nomura's true style coming out.

XIII is a really lazy game, everything about it screams laziness. Can't make towns in HD? Lazy. Even low budget RPG's have had towns. You had 5 years and $60m budget what the fuck were you doing with it? Obviously the employees have no passion for their job anymore. Can't make a meaningful plot without invoking 5 million gods to explain away the horrible level design and "destiny" theme? Lazy. Can't make a deep battle system so just chisel every bit of complexity the series has accumulated until all that's left is choosing a job and clicking autobattle repeatedly because that's quick and easy and looks cool in a trailer? Lazy. Can't add any minigames? Lazy. Can't add in proper limit breaks? Lazy. Can't add more than 6 party members or 6 summons? Lazy. Can't add any side missions other than tedious meaningless battles against almost entirely palette swapped enemies? Lazy. Can't develop luscious immersive graphics and instead have what looks like an upscaled ps2 game with extremely low polygon environments and nonsensical linear paths but it's ok because the cutscenes look great? Lazy, but people seem to think the graphics were actually good for some mind bogglingly ignorant reason. Compare Gran Pulse's sterile empty landscape to far cry 2 or Uncharted. Even XII had more realistic looking environments. Can't make any writing interaction at all because cutscenes are easier? Lazy. Can't create a decent ending that makes sense? That's not just laziness, that's incompetence as are most of these and I could go on...

FF should become more like yakuza, gta, fallout or mass effect. They're all significantly different game design wise, but they all have interactive depth and a focus on engaging story that satisfies in different ways. I don't mind if the next FF is not the best game ever, I just want it to be engaging and not the most tedious and painfully dull game ever made like XIII. Just give the series to someone who still cares about making games and doesn't just want to cash in on the brand. The yakuza devs would love a chance at a big budget game.

Keep the Cait Siths and Umaros and Quinas out of muh game
Different races bring the world to life and add interesting cultural variety. XIII was free from these and it was one of the many many reasons it felt so lifeless and dull. Maybe you simply meant over the top cartoonish characters which would be fine, but XII has the most varied races of any FF game and I don't want only humans.
 

Sniper Team 4

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RogerKevin said:
Sniper Team 4 said:
Bring back the focus on the characters. Give me entire side quests that have nothing to do with the main story, but give you insight into your party. Give me characters that are unique and each one has their own personality and story, not a carbon copy or an ideal made flesh. VII, VIII, X, and to a lesser extent IX did this very well.

Side quests. People keep saying XII had side quests. Where were these quests? All I found was the hunting side quest. I want a quest where you go off and your reward is a new party member. You go explore an island that someone mentions in passing, then you go back and explore it AGAIN because something unlocked. You go through all this crazy planning to find out the girl in the library likes Zell. Give me sidequests that are outside of the main story, but still affect the world.
I don't think you can have a bigger focus on the characters then XIII, for a significant portion of the game the only objective the party had was getting Hope to talk to his dad. Character interaction is all that game had.
Indeed, which is why I like XIII better than XII. The problem though is as you listed: The characters themselves weren't good characters and therefore it was painful to interact with them at points. Hope needed a good hit upside the head, Snow needed to realize that things aren't that easy and grow up, and Lightening needed to calm down.
 

Axelhander

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cyrogeist said:
final fantasy tactics is already my perfect FF game XD
Other than:

- Questionable unit building (i.e., to gain the right stats you have to level as the right job).
- The worst translation known to man (the original; the PSP version is among the best translations).
- The PSP version has spell slowdown where, conceivably, it shouldn't have been technically necessary.
- Places where you can get stuck if you overwrite a save and don't happen to have a party capable of defeating the next map. Easily fixed by doing what the Deep Dungeon did: pick a floor, and go back to the map after each fight, but said easy fix isn't ever implemented.
- Out of control monster egg madness means having to watch your status screen when you're walking around trying to kill time for sidequests.
 

IamSofaKingRaw

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SwimmingRock said:
Carlston said:
Make NEW characters not just throw a dart at a board with details.
Throw dart, Female.
Throw dart at job... Soldier.
Throw dart again for weapon, Gun blade.
Throw dart again personality. Loner.

And we shall call her "Lightning."
I don't think they ever throw a dart for the personality. Loner is just the default unless they can come up with something interesting, which they usually don't bother doing.

OT: "Make the perfect Final Fantasy game by..." never ever making a Vanille-like character ever again ever in any game ever made by anybody ever.

Okay, serious answer. I miss Materia. I also thought the Sphere Grid was better than the Crystarium, because it allowed for more customization and was less linear. As for the characters, bring back Auron and Zack and make Seifer playable. That's your party right there. Throw in a good story, bitching music (the Black Mages cover of the FF7 boss battle theme is still the best combat song ever) and minimize the whining. Oh, and bring back Cid from FF13, but this time make him important rather than a throwaway plot device. He seemed to have so much potential, but instead we listened to Hope whine about whatever... again.

Oh, and I really liked the weapons system from FF10. Constantly buying new weapons is pointless and grindy. Just allow us to make our weapons better. Possibly as rewards for sidequests or something. Seriously, give me a genuine reason to care about the people who want me to do their little quests other than just money or ham-fisted sentimentality.
I found Materia meh. I'd personally like the crystal thing from FFXIII but I'd appreciate if certain classes were only available for certain characters. Also if they didn't make it that you had to switch between classes but could use any ability you have unlocked for a class.
 

Shirokurou

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Square-Enix vs Capcom... Oh yeah...

But actually hopefully Tetsuya Nomura is doing one right now - FF vs XIII. I loved how he designed the Kingdom Hearts series. About time he directed an FF with all that.
 

Infernai

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Drakengards Characters and overall dark theme (It would be awesome to have a lead character like Caim again instead of someone like that mistake Vaan ).
FF7's Music and Massive world, including airships
FF13's battle system, albeit with some tweaks and improvements.
FF12's Side quests and Freedom