Male problems only ever come up as a counter-argument

[Dazzle Novak]

https://feminainvicta.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/500x_pdd-nice-guy.jpg

Funny that you link that image, as I recall in highschool, being the guy that all the girls bitched to about their shitty boyfriends, and frequently heard the "I just want a nice guy!" to which I'd respond "Well, how about we go out then?" and they would respond with "Oh, you're TOO nice." Which always puzzled me. I jokingly responded with "What, so if I slapped you in the face and called you a *****/whore, would that reduce my niceness factor enough to date?" They never had a good answer for that one XD

I have to ask: if you were put into this situation multiple times as you claim, isn't it possible you were the one being disingenuous about his wants and intentions? It seems like you presented yourself as a friend while waiting to feed on the carcasses of their dying relationships like some romantically-opportunistic vulture.

The way you frame the story, you come off as neither nice nor particularly date-worthy, so I don't see a valid source for the self-righteous scorn. Never mind that you see that meme and think all women are the problem. Every other male who has a girlfriend must be a secret jerk, Alpha, rich, etc. and you're the sole "normal" guy in this game of love.

 

[happyninja42]

snip

snip

I have to ask: if you were put into this situation multiple times as you claim, isn't it possible you were the one being disingenuous about his wants and intentions? It seems like you presented yourself as a friend while waiting to feed on the carcasses of their dying relationships like some romatically-opportunistic vulture.

The way you frame the story, you come off as neither nice nor particularly date-worthy.

....HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Omg thanks, that's really funny. Wooo, you crack me up.

I was giving you what is called a condensed version of the story. These were girls I had known for years, and had been friends with for years. I was the guy they always came to to talk about problems with, because I am a nice guy. That's why they felt comfortable talking to me about their relationship problems. Your assumption that I am some kind of relationship vulture is, while visually amusing, completely ludicrous, and says a lot about how you project preconceived notions about other people. It's cute. And yes, I am being sarcastic at you, considering the tone of your response to me, accusing me of being a relationship parasite and vulture, based solely off a 1 paragraph comment from me.

I would listen to them talk about their problems, of whatever kind, for years, and I would give them what advice I had on the subjects. They sought me out for advice and counsel, not the other way around. Some of them, I happened to have an attraction to. And when they are sitting there, single because of the asshole boyfriend they've been bitching at me about for weeks, I would sometimes ask them out. Because hey why not, they're single, we get along just fine, and they state they are tired of asshole boyfriends, so I might as well ask. Sometimes the above comment of "too nice" would be their response. My reply would be simply to illustrate how hypocritical their statement was, in regards to what they said they wanted out of a relationship.

If you still want to say I'm a *snickers* romantic vulture, feeding off the carcasses of their relationship, then go ahead, because honestly, I really don't give a fuck what you think of me.

 

[1981]

I would listen to them talk about their problems, of whatever kind, for years, and I would give them what advice I had on the subjects. [...]

You were friendzoned, bro.

 

[jklinders]

I get you erttheking.


I find it pretty frustrating that these issues only come up when someone is attempting to win the oppression Olympics. A lot of this shit, if not all of it is bad in it's own right. Spousal abuse for example against males is fairly common but getting funding for a shelter for men is nearly impossible in this country and nearly impossible to talk about without bringing up feminism (guys like the OP is asking please do not drag drag feminism into this point, I'll simply dismiss and disregard it).

I don't quite have the contempt for gender roles you have ert, but I understand where you are coming from in how those roles have been distorted. then again, I have seen how one can be isolated by not acting the role. Frankly I have in the past found that to be a useful yardstick on who is worth my time. If someone is acting the ass just because I am not always trying to get a piece i shut them down and then out until they grow the fuck up. I also don't see it quite as often, I'm a little older now and most of the folks I talk to have no points to win anymore as they are married or at least mature. I do vaguely remember how it was to be in my 20s and hold my peers in contempt for acting far more macho than they are to put up a front though.

i've worked hard within myself to take a more humanistic and egalitarian view of things and try to see this shit as a human rather than a gender problem. That brings up it's own challenges but ultimately will lead to a better place if the two genders are not constantly crying about who has it worse. It's all our problem when we are doing this backbiting BS not just one or the other.

 

[Dazzle Novak]

snip

snip

I have to ask: if you were put into this situation multiple times as you claim, isn't it possible you were the one being disingenuous about his wants and intentions? It seems like you presented yourself as a friend while waiting to feed on the carcasses of their dying relationships like some romatically-opportunistic vulture.

The way you frame the story, you come off as neither nice nor particularly date-worthy.

....HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Omg thanks, that's really funny. Wooo, you crack me up.

I was giving you what is called a condensed version of the story. These were girls I had known for years, and had been friends with for years. I was the guy they always came to to talk about problems with, because I am a nice guy. That's why they felt comfortable talking to me about their relationship problems. Your assumption that I am some kind of relationship vulture is, while visually amusing, completely ludicrous, and says a lot about how you project preconceived notions about other people. It's cute. And yes, I am being sarcastic at you, considering the tone of your response to me, accusing me of being a relationship parasite and vulture, based solely off a 1 paragraph comment from me.

I would listen to them talk about their problems, of whatever kind, for years, and I would give them what advice I had on the subjects. They sought me out for advice and counsel, not the other way around. Some of them, I happened to have an attraction to. And when they are sitting there, single because of the asshole boyfriend they've been bitching at me about for weeks, I would sometimes ask them out. Because hey why not, they're single, we get along just fine, and they state they are tired of asshole boyfriends, so I might as well ask. Sometimes the above comment of "too nice" would be their response. My reply would be simply to illustrate how hypocritical their statement was, in regards to what they said they wanted out of a relationship.

If you still want to say I'm a *snickers* romantic vulture, feeding off the carcasses of their relationship, then go ahead, because honestly, I really don't give a fuck what you think of me.

That... Honestly sounds worse than what I presumed out of hand. None of it belies my point and some enhances it.

Edit: I will apologize for calling you a vulture (figurative or otherwise). It was presumptuous and inflammatory and I let my tone get away from me. That said:

So basically, you're bitter because doing what friends do didn't net you the pussy you expected. Call me some kind of magician, but I can be friends with somebody without wanting to stick parts of myself in them. Because let's be honest: sex is the dividing line between friend and girlfriend in this scenario. You weren't hoping to build a life together in high school and intimacy can be a part of platonic friendship so... Yeah. The problem, I guess, isn't that you made ill-advised passes at multiple friends ( though really, think about that a second); it's that you can't empathize with the awkward position you put them in. They weren't attracted to you. If they were, you'd know.

You'd rather paint supposed "friends" as flighty, unsympathetic hypocrites than give them the benefit of the doubt or puncture the notion you're so irresistibly nice. This carries over to my suspicion that what you call "asshole boyfriend behavior" is common relationship strife filtered through an aggrieved ex. Not all of it: some is asshole behavior as we're all wont to indulge. Some may be genuine abusive dickhead moves. My point is I don't think you'd be the ideal supreme gentlemen boyfriend you fancy.

Lastly, how hysterical, defensive and deeply-offended you are by the supposedly off-base allegation of some internet stranger speaks volumes about you: either I hit a nerve or you're pathologically insecure. Hell, why can't it be both? Your eagerness to self-identify as "nice" (especially for deeds as banal and expected as listening to a friend) paints a picture of you I feel is pretty obvious.

 

[Lightknight]

-
First world problems are, sadly, just as serious as third world problems to the people experiencing them. Its called the hedonic treadmill, and that kid in Africa starving to death is probably about as happy as the kid who doesn't really fit in at school, despite the vastly better lifestyle the latter kid has. -

That seems like a series of assumptions and generalizations (designed to ease the guilty conscience) that borders on delusion. I'm just going to assume that your description of a happy starving child is based in ignorance, and not psychopathic disregard for human suffering.

Or, how about they are making a correct evaluation of how issues appear to people regardless of their actual condition. People with great lives may easily perceive what few problems they have as though they were having just as bad a time as a starving child in Africa.

That is the theory he's presenting, anyways. Whether or not you and I agree with it. A kid getting neglected at school may still kill himself out of sadness whereas a kid starving in Africa may fight to survive. That would indicate an unusual non-causative relationship between degree of harm actually experience and appreciation of life. Weird to consider.

He's not presenting a theory, he's presenting salve for guilt in the form of disorganized opinion. Stretching that out for a paragraph or two didn't change that in your hands either.

The hedonic treadmill is a fairly well observed human tendency. Sorry if you were unaware of it before interjecting a gut reaction to what the poster said.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedonic_treadmill

It is a valid theory and one the psychological community is very much currently interested in. The main thing we want to study given this perceived condition is what kind of things are outliers, things that really do impact the longterm stability of happiness.

I know it sounds shocking when first heard, but the very very poor can express the same levels of happiness as the very wealthy if not sometimes more.

 

[jklinders]

I get you erttheking.


I find it pretty frustrating that these issues only come up when someone is attempting to win the oppression Olympics. A lot of this shit, if not all of it is bad in it's own right. Spousal abuse for example against males is fairly common but getting funding for a shelter for men is nearly impossible in this country and nearly impossible to talk about without bringing up feminism (guys like the OP is asking please do not drag drag feminism into this point, I'll simply dismiss and disregard it).

I don't quite have the contempt for gender roles you have ert, but I understand where you are coming from in how those roles have been distorted. then again, I have seen how one can be isolated by not acting the role. Frankly I have in the past found that to be a useful yardstick on who is worth my time. If someone is acting the ass just because I am not always trying to get a piece i shut them down and then out until they grow the fuck up. I also don't see it quite as often, I'm a little older now and most of the folks I talk to have no points to win anymore as they are married or at least mature. I do vaguely remember how it was to be in my 20s and hold my peers in contempt for acting far more macho than they are to put up a front though.

i've worked hard within myself to take a more humanistic and egalitarian view of things and try to see this shit as a human rather than a gender problem. That brings up it's own challenges but ultimately will lead to a better place if the two genders are not constantly crying about who has it worse. It's all our problem when we are doing this backbiting BS not just one or the other.

People have cynically realized that "White Power" isn't as appealing these days as "White Pride". It's not as appealing to mount a race war, as to defend yourself against one that's supposedly already underway. From those extreme roots, that ideology simply spread outward and now assumed victimhood is SOP for anyone and everyone. It's a kind of intellectual and social chaff, acting as spoilers for the whole discussion.

Care to explain where you are coming from here? Frankly I have no idea if you are talking to me or quoted me by accident. It also sounds a little like you are accusing me of trying to derail the thread. you have no foundation for that as i was replying specifically to the OP and not whatever convoluted mutated discussion that took place since.

 

[jklinders]

I get you erttheking.


I find it pretty frustrating that these issues only come up when someone is attempting to win the oppression Olympics. A lot of this shit, if not all of it is bad in it's own right. Spousal abuse for example against males is fairly common but getting funding for a shelter for men is nearly impossible in this country and nearly impossible to talk about without bringing up feminism (guys like the OP is asking please do not drag drag feminism into this point, I'll simply dismiss and disregard it).

I don't quite have the contempt for gender roles you have ert, but I understand where you are coming from in how those roles have been distorted. then again, I have seen how one can be isolated by not acting the role. Frankly I have in the past found that to be a useful yardstick on who is worth my time. If someone is acting the ass just because I am not always trying to get a piece i shut them down and then out until they grow the fuck up. I also don't see it quite as often, I'm a little older now and most of the folks I talk to have no points to win anymore as they are married or at least mature. I do vaguely remember how it was to be in my 20s and hold my peers in contempt for acting far more macho than they are to put up a front though.

i've worked hard within myself to take a more humanistic and egalitarian view of things and try to see this shit as a human rather than a gender problem. That brings up it's own challenges but ultimately will lead to a better place if the two genders are not constantly crying about who has it worse. It's all our problem when we are doing this backbiting BS not just one or the other.

People have cynically realized that "White Power" isn't as appealing these days as "White Pride". It's not as appealing to mount a race war, as to defend yourself against one that's supposedly already underway. From those extreme roots, that ideology simply spread outward and now assumed victimhood is SOP for anyone and everyone. It's a kind of intellectual and social chaff, acting as spoilers for the whole discussion.

Care to explain where you are coming from here? Frankly I have no idea if you are talking to me or quoted me by accident. It also sounds a little like you are accusing me of trying to derail the thread. you have no foundation for that as i was replying specifically to the OP and not whatever convoluted mutated discussion that took place since.

I'm agreeing with your statement, "I find it pretty frustrating that these issues only come up when someone is attempting to win the oppression Olympics." I'm explaining how that kind of behavior has come to be the norm for our whole society, and its origins in extreme movements' attempts to re brand themselves. People have figured out that it's easier to present yourself as a victim and then hypocritically victimize people, than actually selling yourself honestly. I was using one early example of that in the turn of "White Power" philosophy from the need to dominate other races, into a need to defend the "white race" against the aggression of other races.

I think the only people who are totally honest about their lack of victim status, and are just openly hateful would be the Westboro Baptist Church. They're too fucking crazy to market themselves.

thanks for clearing that up. On a first glance reading, and I still cannot parse it from your original post it looked like you were alluding that behavior to me in my wish to pursue humanism over feminism or MRAism. I'm glad i did not end up needing to go (politely and within forum rules) apeshit over that as I am currently having a good day.

Peace.

 

[Karadalis]

The same reason that the lack of shelters for homeless or battered men is brought up by people who have never done anything about it, like opening a shelter. The kind of people who complain online or on a college campus on any side of this debate, aren't the people who actually solve problems at that time.

Slacktivism ladies and gentlemen, it's that simple.

The one woman who tried to open shelter for battered men, who incidently also was the one who opened the first shelters for women in the us of a had her dog killed by feminists and had her family and herselfe terrorized by them so much that she had to leave her home behind and move to another location

http://imgur.com/gallery/PDcXuvy

And people wonder why no one talks about mens problems or why no one speaks up for men... because each time someone who simply wants to discuss mens problems comes along hes shut down by radical feminists and activists. Go ahead and even try to have an honest debate about men issues in the modern world in a public place.

Or have you forgotten that you cant be sexist against men?

 

[Lightknight]

The same reason that the lack of shelters for homeless or battered men is brought up by people who have never done anything about it, like opening a shelter. The kind of people who complain online or on a college campus on any side of this debate, aren't the people who actually solve problems at that time.

Slacktivism ladies and gentlemen, it's that simple.

The one woman who tried to open shelter for battered men, who incidently also was the one who opened the first shelters for women in the us of a had her dog killed by feminists and had her family and herselfe terrorized by them so much that she had to leave her home behind and move to another location

http://imgur.com/gallery/PDcXuvy

And people wonder why no one talks about mens problems or why no one speaks up for men... because each time someone who simply wants to discuss mens problems comes along hes shut down by radical feminists and activists. Go ahead and even try to have an honest debate about men issues in the modern world in a public place.

Or have you forgotten that you cant be sexist against men?

Not to mention that being unwilling to upset my own life to pursue fixing a problem that is not personally relevant doesn't mean we can't bring it up as a problem given more recent data showing comparable victimization rates of males in domestic abuse (although women are far more likely to suffer injuries). That would be as silly as a police officer dismissing a rape victim's request for them to arrest the offender because the rape victim never joined the police force and arrested any rapists... it just doesn't follow that you can't describe a problem unless you are an active force to resolve it.

 

[Mister K]

Well, I'll tell why from MY personal perspective concerning MY own view of MYSELF and people around ME. We cool? Cool.

I personally don't talk about my problems because I DO NOT WANT TO. As simple as that. It is a lot more comfortable for me to either punch a wall or curse under my breath when I have problem and then move on. I do not want to tell other people about how I feel, I do not want to burden them because they seem to have problems of their own. Yes, I do reply with my personal opinion on topics that concern me and my ladyfriend (such as the fact that we both can't find good jobs), but that is it. I, however, am always willing to listen for the reasons said in the second part of my post.

As for my experience with other people, I've noticed that the majority of women are mostly incapable of holding their emotions inside. They NEED to vent out. Why am I sayng this? Two reasons. First, my mother, whenever something bad is happeng, tends to scream towards me. Problem with my father (which most of the time she caused)? Scream at me. Something bad at work? Scream at me. I fucked up? Scream at me (OK, this one I, kiiiind of deserved). I quickly learned that a) the best tactic is to shut up and let her get tired and b) being literally assaulted in an agressive form by other persons problems creates a huge burden for a listener.
Second experience is, well, with other women in general. No matter how cheerful, or tough, or smart those women, girls, young ladies were and are, they need to sometimes tell someone about what they feel, be it something good or bad. I mean, with guys, the worst you'll hear is "Shit is fucked because so and so" and that is it, but women need to tell the whole thing and express themselves fully.
From those experiences I've made 2 conclusions: 1. Burdening other person with your problems in an agressive manner is, at the very least, not healthy for them and whenever I have a huge ammount of problems which I collected for the last few weeks I EXPLODE in this or that way, so I try to avoid doing it; 2. I am a good listener, people (majority of which are women) need someone to tell about their problems, so I'll listen.

To conclude, IMO man simply need to release their frustration (in a worst case scenario) and then move on. We do not feel the need to tell others about our problems, unless it is something we can't deal with on our own. Like health issues, when there is an actual need to visit a specialist.

 

[Secondhand Revenant]

https://feminainvicta.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/500x_pdd-nice-guy.jpg

Funny that you link that image, as I recall in highschool, being the guy that all the girls bitched to about their shitty boyfriends, and frequently heard the "I just want a nice guy!" to which I'd respond "Well, how about we go out then?" and they would respond with "Oh, you're TOO nice." Which always puzzled me. I jokingly responded with "What, so if I slapped you in the face and called you a *****/whore, would that reduce my niceness factor enough to date?" They never had a good answer for that. xD

Seriously if you have to bill yourself as nice you're probably not.

If anything they probably didn't just want to offend the guy who apparently believes himself to be so nice and didn't want to have to point out why you aren't attractive to them. Given your response it just may be you aren't nice at all and it's awkward to give a response to someone being that rude if you don't want to just stop being friends with them.

Besides did you seriously think that complaining that someone isn't nice and they want someone nice means that's all they care about? Like who is so damn simple they just want someone nice, obviously that's hardly sufficient and anyone trying to think about it should get that

 

[Erttheking]

Snip

I'm going to take a wild stab and say that when someone goes to a close friend talking about boyfriend problems, they wanted support from a friend and not another guy to suggest that they go out. People don't usually think "Well that relationship sucked, let's start another one right away with someone who just happens to be decent." Someone being nice isn't enough to make someone become romantically attached to you

I'm pretty sure they were saying "You're too nice," because they considered you a friend and thought that was nicer than saying "NOT! INTERESTED!"

 

[Synigma]

Snip

I'm going to take a wild stab and say that when someone goes to a close friend talking about boyfriend problems, they wanted support from a friend and not another guy to suggest that they go out. People don't usually think "Well that relationship sucked, let's start another one right away with someone who just happens to be decent." Someone being nice isn't enough to make someone become romantically attached to you

I'm pretty sure they were saying "You're too nice," because they considered you a friend and thought that was nicer than saying "NOT! INTERESTED!"

As an ex-'Nice guy' (important point: there is a big difference between ex-'Nice guy' and 'ex-nice' guy) I would like to bring a perspective to the table, let's see if I can make a concise point of it (and maybe tie it into the OT for bonus points):

'Nice guys' see the nonchalant way that some men act and hit on women as rude, sexist or are just plain too self-conscious to be so direct. Instead they approach women in a friendly manner... and end up in the friend zone because that's how they presented themselves. So when I hear the terms 'Nice guy' or 'Friend-zone' I immediately have a hard time believing that the guy complaining was up front about his intentions when he met the woman. Call the other guys who hit on her assholes but at least they were treating her with the respect of being honest.
However on the other side of that, most of these guys ARE nice. They just haven't conquered their fear of rejection or have put these women on pedestals (usually a bit of both) so it's hard for them to be so direct.

In the case of this guy the situation is a little more convoluted, but he seems to have acted like a friend at first (maybe only because he knew they had a boyfriend but my point still stands) and only after did he express an interest in them.

It's very disingenuous to automatically assume these guys are bad people and I would argue that mocking them IS IN DIRECT OPPOSITION to the OT. He's a man complaining about a problem he is having and you are calling him a horrible person when in all likelihood it's just a miscommunication problem.

That being said I have to say that if you want out of the friendzone you have to stop being friends. If she turns you down then you have to remember that she might have turned you down from the start and it's as simple as that.

 

[Secondhand Revenant]

It's very disingenuous to automatically assume these guys are bad people and I would argue that mocking them IS IN DIRECT OPPOSITION to the OT. He's a man complaining about a problem he is having and you are calling him a horrible person when in all likelihood it's just a miscommunication problem.

I'd direct you to the post above yours. It's the part where it goes into villifying others that makes it stop just being some poor guy who didn't get the hint.

Also I don't think it is useful to just accept all men complaining about problems they are having. I prefer that we reserve the right to point out when they're more of the problem and not just mindlessly accept all complaints as valid.

That being said I have to say that if you want out of the friendzone you have to stop being friends. If she turns you down then you have to remember that she might have turned you down from the start and it's as simple as that.

Perhaps that's your dynamic with people but it's definitely not how it is for everyone. Me and my gf considered each other friends for a few years before we decided to get together.

 

[Fox12]

https://feminainvicta.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/500x_pdd-nice-guy.jpg

Funny that you link that image, as I recall in highschool, being the guy that all the girls bitched to about their shitty boyfriends, and frequently heard the "I just want a nice guy!" to which I'd respond "Well, how about we go out then?" and they would respond with "Oh, you're TOO nice." Which always puzzled me. I jokingly responded with "What, so if I slapped you in the face and called you a *****/whore, would that reduce my niceness factor enough to date?" They never had a good answer for that. xD

You know, I've always said, if you're only nice to people because you want something from them, then you're not actually a nice guy.

I'm not saying this about you, of course, but I hear a lot of guys saying that they can't get dates because they're too nice. Or that women only want assholes. But that's really not true at all, unless you think every guys an asshole. Sometimes people just want to vent about a relationship. More importantly, though, I dislike the sense of entitlement that seems to come with this. "I'm a nice guy. Of course women should want to date/sex me." But being a nice person shouldn't be some gold standard, it's a minimum requirement we should all strive for. And we should never expect to be rewarded for it. You don't do nice things because you want something, you do nice things because it's the right thing to do.

 

[Erttheking]

Snip

I beg your pardon? Virgin shamming? You're going to have to point out where I did that, especially considering that I'm a 22 year old virgin. I never said anything about sex, I thought we were talking about getting girlfriends and how some men act like they only loose out because they're "nice guys". I say why I find that to be bullshit and that these nice guys aren't as nice as they say they are, and all of a sudden I'm virgin shamming? Hey Inu-Kun! You know you can be in a relationship with someone and come out of it a virgin right!? Relationships =/= sex!

You're also replying to entire paragraphs worth of arguments with what can be boiled down to "You did this one thing, therefore you're wrong about everything." Like I said last time, go back and respond to what I ACTUALLY said.

This is the second time you criticize me for an argument that I didn't actually make and you made up. And don't you DARE talk to me about shaming when you're the one that said, and I quote " women are attracted to strong, egoistical men who don't care a shit for them and enough con artists display that, it's pretty sickening the way women sanctify themselves as having "standards" mor than man."

Who's the one shamming here? Because it ain't fucking me!

EDIT: When the ever loving hell did "People against women" come up? More importantly, why would I ever say anything NICE about people who are against women?

 

[Synigma]

I don't see any mocking here, just the recognition that when you make the turn from "rejected guy in friendzone" to "blames the women for wanting a slap" you've shown us all a glimpse of who you really are. Presumably women can see that too, and react badly.

Mocking might not have been the right word. I read erttheking's original response as being pretty insulting, jumping straight to the meme, and a bunch of follow up posts that automatically jumped on the 'Nice guys aren't nice!' bandwagon. Fair enough that this guy didn't exactly sound that nice but all the same it made me defensive because I remember what it used to be like not understanding what I was doing wrong. You have to keep in mind that these guys don't go into these situations on purpose, it just sort of happens and then they get frustrated (and that can come out the wrong way).

It's very disingenuous to automatically assume these guys are bad people and I would argue that mocking them IS IN DIRECT OPPOSITION to the OT. He's a man complaining about a problem he is having and you are calling him a horrible person when in all likelihood it's just a miscommunication problem.

I'd direct you to the post above yours. It's the part where it goes into villifying others that makes it stop just being some poor guy who didn't get the hint.

Also I don't think it is useful to just accept all men complaining about problems they are having. I prefer that we reserve the right to point out when they're more of the problem and not just mindlessly accept all complaints as valid.

Well that post wasn't there when I started typing my response

And I would just like to say that it's not helpful to be outright dismissive. You just breed more resentment and scare of other possible guys who are nice and could use some direction to get out of those positions.

That being said I have to say that if you want out of the friendzone you have to stop being friends. If she turns you down then you have to remember that she might have turned you down from the start and it's as simple as that.

Perhaps that's your dynamic with people but it's definitely not how it is for everyone. Me and my gf considered each other friends for a few years before we decided to get together.

I was trying to keep my answer concise so I didn't go into every possibility. If you're willing to be 'just' friends with a girl then after a while you realize there is something there that's different than what this guy was describing. And can I ask if you and your gf had 'that' talk, you know, about risking your friendship for something more? because that was the point of the first sentence; you have to be willing to give up being friends to get past the friendzone.

 

[Thaluikhain]

It seems an unnecessary distinction that only serves to propagate an "us vs them" mentality for an issue that ultimately affects both genders.

Hence the question, why use a gender specific term for a problem that isn't specific to one gender?

Gender roles and how they specifically affect men are gender specific. Lots of issues affect more than one group, that doesn't mean people shouldn't look at the different ways they affect different groups. The idea that doing so inherently is creating a divide seems little more than a way of dismissing looking at the issues.

Yes, virgin shaming, the oldest weapon in feminists arsenal, that doesn't even make sense when you think about it.

It doesn't make sense in that virgin shaming is hardy a "feminist weapon", whatever that might mean, nor does it seem to have anything to do with the post you quoted.