Male problems only ever come up as a counter-argument

[omega 616]

snip

I am not saying you can't talk about it but the way this thread is worded sounds like he is asking why is it only talked about when used to silence feminists, which is why I said it sounds a little whiny.

He could have said "can we talk about these issues" but he didn't.

 

[Erttheking]

Snip

Uh, at what point did I complain about women getting more attention than men? My problem was that a lot of men only really seem to care about men problems when they can use it to shut feminists up.

 

[Erttheking]

The same reason that the lack of shelters for homeless or battered men is brought up by people who have never done anything about it, like opening a shelter. The kind of people who complain online or on a college campus on any side of this debate, aren't the people who actually solve problems at that time.

Slacktivism ladies and gentlemen, it's that simple.

Well...I feel like crap now.

Surely there's something to be gained by talking about it. At the very least it'll end with some people actually knowing what the hell is going on.

 

[Lightspeaker]

I would guess because it's also a stereotype that men shouldn't talk about their problems.

It sounds a little like a whiny child to me, "why are women get all the attention? We have problems toooo", yeah of course you do but look at the state of the imbalance.

I think these two quotes quite neatly sum up the answer to your OP here. The first one describes the reason, the second one provides an example of the kind of attitude described in the first.

Men are not "socially allowed" to publicly discuss their problems. Not by other men and not by women; its not the done thing (which is absurd, but that's the way it is). This creates a painful and uncomfortable situation for those who are upset and unhappy and unable to talk about it. So when problems are brought up for women there's a level of resentment and frustration at being unable to talk about it, which is why it is brought up then. And then its dismissed as 'butting in', despite the fact there is no other place to ever bring any of it up. You translate that as being a counter argument to silence people; I look at it as a cry for help, because there's nowhere for people to talk. And then they get ridiculed for it.

The whole feminist joke about "but men" is extremely toxic to this as far as I'm concerned, because its silencing voices that are never normally able to find an outlet. Because, again, men aren't allowed to talk about their problems.

There was a cracked article today about rape in the US military. Women are more likely to be raped than men but there are more rapes of men than of women because of the demographics. So you'd think it'd be fairly easy to find a man who had been raped in that environment. And yet the article only talked to a couple of women...because they literally couldn't find any men willing to talk to them about their experiences. Men aren't "allowed" to talk about things like that.

 

[Dizchu]

I'm some sort of non-gender-identifying abomination and I have presented myself as male and female on the internet at some point or another without either being an attempt to "fake" who I am. I have noticed that whatever gender you are, you're gonna get shit. And I don't mean that in a "men and women deal with an equal amount of trouble at all times" kind of way, I mean that the advantages and disadvantages, while comparable, rely on different criteria.

Why's this relevant, you ask? Because the reason why I think male problems are only brought up as a counterargument is because, as I have noticed in my own online experiences, males are actively discouraged from speaking out about these things. By both men and women, though working within the same sort of patriarchal framework. Yes I said the "P" word. Men are expected to be stoic providers, they're expected to be disposable, they're expected to dismiss their own feelings. They're also expected to have a certain relationship with women.

I see the use of male problems as a counterargument to be a sign of desperation. I mean it's telling, isn't it? The one time it's acceptable for men to address their own vulnerabilities and insecurities is when they're being aggressive towards another group. It's why a lot of MRAs are more interested in bashing feminism than... well, advocating for men's rights.

It's a weird paradoxical situation.

 

[Lightspeaker]

I'm some sort of non-gender-identifying abomination and I have presented myself as male and female on the internet at some point or another without either being an attempt to "fake" who I am. I have noticed that whatever gender you are, you're gonna get shit. And I don't mean that in a "men and women deal with an equal amount of trouble at all times" kind of way, I mean that the advantages and disadvantages, while comparable, rely on different criteria.

Why's this relevant, you ask? Because the reason why I think male problems are only brought up as a counterargument is because, as I have noticed in my own online experiences, males are actively discouraged from speaking out about these things. By both men and women, though working within the same sort of patriarchal framework. Yes I said the "P" word. Men are expected to be stoic providers, they're expected to be disposable, they're expected to dismiss their own feelings. They're also expected to have a certain relationship with women.

I see the use of male problems as a counterargument to be a sign of desperation. I mean it's telling, isn't it? The one time it's acceptable for men to address their own vulnerabilities and insecurities is when they're being aggressive towards another group. It's why a lot of MRAs are more interested in bashing feminism than... well, advocating for men's rights.

It's a weird paradoxical situation.

I like you. You hit upon quite a lot of points I was trying to hit on as well.

All of this.

 

[omega 616]

I would guess because it's also a stereotype that men shouldn't talk about their problems.

It sounds a little like a whiny child to me, "why are women get all the attention? We have problems toooo", yeah of course you do but look at the state of the imbalance.

I think these two quotes quite neatly sum up the answer to your OP here. The first one describes the reason, the second one provides an example of the kind of attitude described in the first.

Men are not "socially allowed" to publicly discuss their problems. Not by other men and not by women; its not the done thing (which is absurd, but that's the way it is). This creates a painful and uncomfortable situation for those who are upset and unhappy and unable to talk about it. So when problems are brought up for women there's a level of resentment and frustration at being unable to talk about it, which is why it is brought up then. And then its dismissed as 'butting in', despite the fact there is no other place to ever bring any of it up. You translate that as being a counter argument to silence people; I look at it as a cry for help, because there's nowhere for people to talk. And then they get ridiculed for it.

The whole feminist joke about "but men" is extremely toxic to this as far as I'm concerned, because its silencing voices that are never normally able to find an outlet. Because, again, men aren't allowed to talk about their problems.

There was a cracked article today about rape in the US military. Women are more likely to be raped than men but there are more rapes of men than of women because of the demographics. So you'd think it'd be fairly easy to find a man who had been raped in that environment. And yet the article only talked to a couple of women...because they literally couldn't find any men willing to talk to them about their experiences. Men aren't "allowed" to talk about things like that.

The part you quoted was meant to mean "drag women rights up to an acceptable level as a primary focus but work on men at the same time". The way this thread has been structured as "why do we only talk about them during this time" and not "lets talk about these issues now"

 

[1981]

*snip*

That's a good question. Many of the arguments are concocted, but there are legitimate issues. It's not easy to start building something from scratch. Those who have a history of being discriminated against are likely to have structures they can lean on. Those who go out on a limb are likely to be ridiculed. It's easier to just piss on someone else's parade.

About-face has several articles on how boys and men are portrayed in the media: Candles: Now available for men [http://www.about-face.org/candles-now-available-for-men/], Macho = Misogynist in Carl's Jr. Ad [http://www.about-face.org/macho-misogynist-in-carls-jr-ad/] and Girls suck at math and boys shouldn't wear princess crowns [http://www.about-face.org/girls-suck-at-math-and-boys-shouldnt-wear-princess-crowns/] to name a few.

Some would probably say some bullshit about "man are grown to to complain", but I think it's really that if anyone would bring that up women would just end it by saying their troubles are harder and "win" the discussion.

The very thing that started this discussion: why does a man blame women for his inability to talk about his problems?

 

[Vendor-Lazarus]

Because the only outlet for males to describe their problems are via indirect routes.
The anonymity of the internet can be a great thing..
It's sad that the underlying culture only pays attention when it's being used as arguments against Feminism.
Feminism has basically served it's purpose (in the first world) and been taken over by vocal anti-males and greedy self-serving women.
The solution to both problems should be Egalitarianism.

Despite me only being known with a name on here I hesitate to describe the problems I've faced from the moment I was born (With a male-only defect) to my current situation (A solitary shut-in 30 year old virgin..who might be bi..maybe..).
And that's not really saying much..

 

[Thaluikhain]

Feminism has basically served it's purpose (in the first world) and been taken over by vocal anti-males and greedy self-serving women.

That is not remotely true.

The solution to both problems should be Egalitarianism.

In theory, yes, in practice, no. Excepting that feminism falls under the blanket of Egalitarianism, which probably wasn't what you meant.

All very well talking about equality for "everyone", but "everyone" is a meaningless word by itself, you have to specify who it covers, unfortunately. For example, the US Declaration of Independence includes the famous line "All men are created equal", and was written by slave owners that considered black men to be created inherently less. I daresay they absolutely meant it when they said it, it's just that "all" as they meant it didn't mean "all" as it might appear.

Similarly, feminism (and every and all other rights groups, more or less) tends to be considered with the problems faced by the particular members of the group being fought for (in this case women) that most resemble the majority/leaders. So various branches oppose rights for LGBT women, black women, disabled women, etc, which need their own groups and get told the solution should be feminism.

 

[happyninja42]

I would guess because it's also a stereotype that men shouldn't talk about their problems.

Yeah...that's part of the whole stupid masculine ideals. Men who talk about their problems are pussies.

To the specific question of why is it only ever brought up as a counter argument. I would say a good amount of it is the above mentioned issue, coupled with the backlash men will get if they try to express these issues. They will be told to shut up, or any number of other ways to belittle and diminish their problem to ignore it.

I've had it happen on this very forum, in regards to the subject of male rape/molestation. I was told that the entire subject of male rape/molestation was "silly", and just wasn't an issue. Nevermind the injuries or issues this might cause a person, nah, it's just silly to think that's a problem, because it doesn't happen as often as it does to women.

If you are a representative of the "in power" group, whoever that may be in the discussion, you trying to express your problems at all is shot down all the time. "You don't have it as bad as we do (or don't have the same problems as we do), thus your problems are irrelevant" is the common kind of response you see. It kind of reminds me of the whole "First World Problems", or "Check Your Privilege" fad that seems to serve no purpose than to socially compel people to not express their issues and concerns. You're not living in a war torn, 3rd world country, thus you can't complain about things.

Eh, I'm rambling at this point, and I think I lost my train of thought. But yeah, I think it's partly social conditioning that men aren't supposed to complain about things, so we only bring it up as a counter argument when we get tired of hearing people shit talk us about how easy we've got things. When we might not have it as easy as they assume we do.

 

[Vendor-Lazarus]

Feminism has basically served it's purpose (in the first world) and been taken over by vocal anti-males and greedy self-serving women.

That is not remotely true.

Then please tell me what cause the current generation of Feminism fights for?

When I said basically I meant just that. There are not a lot of things men can do today that females can't as well.
What could be done is fine-tuning imbalances in our society but that doesn't only apply to Women's imbalances nor used to overshadow other problems.

The solution to both problems should be Egalitarianism.

In theory, yes, in practice, no. Excepting that feminism falls under the blanket of Egalitarianism, which probably wasn't what you meant.

All very well talking about equality for "everyone", but "everyone" is a meaningless word by itself, you have to specify who it covers, unfortunately. For example, the US Declaration of Independence includes the famous line "All men are created equal", and was written by slave owners that considered black men to be created inherently less. I daresay they absolutely meant it when they said it, it's just that "all" as they meant it didn't mean "all" as it might appear.

Similarly, feminism (and every and all other rights groups, more or less) tends to be considered with the problems faced by the particular members of the group being fought for (in this case women) that most resemble the majority/leaders. So various branches oppose rights for LGBT women, black women, disabled women, etc, which need their own groups and get told the solution should be feminism.

I'm probably not the right person to give and in-depth response and analysis about the different facets of Egalitarianism.
There are problems that needs to be overcome, yes. Just as there is now.
The problems of now seems to be repeating themselves over and over and have come to an impasse.
A change of tactics to combat our issues should at least be explored.

Because the only outlet for males to describe their problems are via indirect routes.
The anonymity of the internet can be a great thing..
It's sad that the underlying culture only pays attention when it's being used as arguments against Feminism.
Feminism has basically served it's purpose (in the first world) and been taken over by vocal anti-males and greedy self-serving women.
The solution to both problems should be Egalitarianism.

Despite me only being known with a name on here I hesitate to describe the problems I've faced from the moment I was born (With a male-only defect) to my current situation (A solitary shut-in 30 year old virgin..who might be bi..maybe..).
And that's not really saying much..

"Because the only outlet for males to describe their problems are via indirect routes."

Huh? I mean, we dominate business, politics, religion, the sciences and media. How much more direct expression and influence do you want? The opportunities are there, and if you and other people aren't taking them, it's a personal choice and not a lack of opportunity as a gender.

If you have followed this thread then you must have read about something called "the patriarchy"?
I dislike that word and some of the implications that are used in concert to it but peer-pressure exists even on a cultural level.
You have never even witnessed or heard of a scenario where a man (or a woman) calls a man complaining a "pussy" or to "man up"?

 

[Lightspeaker]

The opportunities are there, and if you and other people aren't taking them, it's a personal choice and not a lack of opportunity as a gender.

For the reasons pointed out by at least three people on the previous page this is incorrect. It is not "acceptable" for men to talk about such issues. And frequently attempts to do so get shot down and silenced. Both other men and women do this.

The fact that you think its acceptable to dismiss the whole thing as 'a personal choice' is a huge part of the problem.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Feminism has basically served it's purpose (in the first world) and been taken over by vocal anti-males and greedy self-serving women.

That is not remotely true.

Then please tell me what cause the current generation of Feminism fights for?

Reproductive rights, sexual harassment, equal representation, institutionalised sexism in general, those sort of things.

Looking at your profile it says your from Sweden, well-known for being one of the most egalitarian nations, so that might mot be such a thing there, but it definitely is throughout the West in general.

 

[Vendor-Lazarus]

Feminism has basically served it's purpose (in the first world) and been taken over by vocal anti-males and greedy self-serving women.

That is not remotely true.

Then please tell me what cause the current generation of Feminism fights for?

Reproductive rights, sexual harassment, equal representation, institutionalised sexism in general, those sort of things.

Looking at your profile it says your from Sweden, well-known for being one of the most egalitarian nations, so that might mot be such a thing there, but it definitely is throughout the West in general.

None of those things are female issues only. I still see and acknowledge the problems but why can't it be done together?

As I explained in my previous post, the only boundaries left are degrees not angles. To use an analogy..
Those degrees should be rectified but not at the cost of visibility for other injustices.

-snip-
Please don't throw a bunch of MRA talking points in my face in response to a simple question. Still, I guess I have my answer.

As I have mine..albeit indirectly. ,)

 

[Erttheking]

All of OP's post is basically their own experience, which only proves that OP doesn't follow men's issues.

No it isn't. I listed problems that men as a whole face and then listed problems that I had personally faced.

Your conclusion and the evidence that supports it is flimsy at best.