Male problems only ever come up as a counter-argument

[Thaluikhain]

None of those things are female issues only. I still see and acknowledge the problems but why can't it be done together?

As I explained in my previous post, the only boundaries left are degrees not angles. To use an analogy..
Those degrees should be rectified but not at the cost of visibility for other injustices.

Well, in theory those aren't female issues only, in practice, the way societies tend to look at those issues and deal with them varies depending on gender.

Abortion for example, overwhelming is a female issue. There are trans men who need it, of course, but they are generally overlooked by people wanting to restrict abortions (who tend to despise them anyway). The Republicans in the US are doing all they can to make abortions unavailable, if technically legal. This is a serious concern for American feminists.

Now, it's absolutely true that dealing with one issue shouldn't mean another is dismissed, but there's no inherent reason why it should be.

 

[mad825]

Reproductive rights,

Do you mean sterilisation or paternity leave? If you mean the former, then you don't know your geography and if you mean the latter then it isn't black and white although it is expected from the employer for the men to continue working.

sexual harassment

It's expected for the men to make the first move from men and women. It also doesn't really help then women tend to dress provocatively.

equal representation

For men or for women? There are two side on that matter and often polarised in terms of profession. Could you be more specific other than naming a generic term that apply to both of the sexes?

institutionalised sexism in general

Another generic term that apply to both of the sexes. Prejudice comes in positive and negative forms but are both equally harmful.

 

[Thaluikhain]

It also doesn't really help then women tend to dress provocatively.

Ah yes, victim blaming, thank you for the example.

EDIT:

Another generic term that apply to both of the sexes.

And for the example of men's issues being used to try to somehow deny women's.

 

[Erttheking]

I rarely see anyone saying ANYTHING about this stuff is when someone else is trying to talk about their problems (Yes I'm talking about feminism here, but I'm trying to avoid it talking about it because mentioning it always causes the argument to be derailed). And that drives me insane. Logically I thought that the people who bring them up as counter-arguments would really be invested in male problems, but when there isn't a discussion about feminism going on, they never really get brought up.

And yet no one really brings up these problems unless it's to shut up someone else's arguments.


(Oh, and something sad? The most I've seen online talking about male problems is a feminist Tumblr account I follow. Yeah, as much as people like to talk about Tumblr as being Misandric, all the talking about male problems that I've seen online have come from Tumblr.)

Capatcha: Half Empty. Well that's pessimistic

Again, that's you talking about where YOU saw these things discussed. It's your personal experience.

Ah, that's what you meant. It was hard to tell because your post was so short and vaguely worded.

Well in that case would you like to present a counter-example? A place where this stuff is talked about?

 

[mad825]

It also doesn't really help then women tend to dress provocatively.

Ah yes, victim blaming, thank you for the example.

Oh look who's grasping for straws.

Dressing provocatively has and is long been associated with trying to attract a sexual mate. Some guys get the wrong message and quite frankly every person has a good degree of responsibility for their own safety which apparently doesn't seem to apply to women. You reap what you sow.

I am not victim blaming, it's a factor among many others, drugs is another.

 

[scorn the biomage]

Reproductive rights,

Do you mean sterilisation or paternity leave? If you mean the former, then you don't know your geography and if you mean the latter then it isn't black and white although it is expected from the employer for the men to continue working.

sexual harassment

It's expected for the men to make the first move from men and women. It also doesn't really help then women tend to dress provocatively.

equal representation

For men or for women? There are two side on that matter and often polarised in terms of profession. Could you be more specific other than naming a generic term that apply to both of the sexes?

institutionalised sexism in general

Another generic term that apply to both of the sexes. Prejudice comes in positive and negative forms but are both equally harmful.

[http://media.photobucket.com/user/BlckRose270/media/377442591.gif.html]

Here is a clear example of what op was talking about and further more you also give us good text book example of slut shaming.

 

[mad825]

Here is a clear example of what op was talking about and further more you also give us good text book example of slut shaming.

Care to explain? I'm all ears just for you. Slut shaming? You're putting words in my mouth.

 

[Fox12]

I think there's a major point to be made about circumcision. It's a rather barbaric ritual, wherein the benefits seem to be outweighed by the negatives.

In any case, I think the answer is to fight against gender stereotypes in general. Feminists and MRA's should be able to theoretically work together on this. The problem is that, if you try to push this, then your biggest opponents will be other MRA's. They'll say that there's a war on men, and that the feminists are trying to contribute to the feminization and psychological castration of America. Then someone will inevitably ask what's so wrong about being a man, blah blah blah.

These are the most likely the same men that only bring up mens rights as a way to argue against feminism.

 

[SonOfVoorhees]

Men and woman have their issues to deal with. An yes those that doesn't make the complaint of the opposite gender any less relevant. I think its a good thing men have followed woman and being able to discuss their own issues being that its seen as a weakness for men. I remember going out to a club and this drunk woman was grabbing mens crotches and laughing. An it was fairly shocking having some strange woman groping you. But, as a man, both men and woman just see that as a fun joke. Where as if i went up and groped random woman I bet no man or woman would see it as a fun joke. Also if you read the paper recently a 20 year old woman got away with having sex with an 11 year old boy because the dad said he was up for it - a man would never be treated the same if he abused an 11 year old girl. Now they both should have been imprisoned for a long time, but it seems boys/men are often labeled as wanting sex all the time and getting it as a young boy is seen as a badge of honour and not the rape that it is.

While its good to communicate and talk about issues effecting both men and woman, its wrong to belittle a womens experience and issues just because men have that same issue as well. Maybe if men understood and discussed issues woman face maybe this would reflect back on men and help them deal with their own issues also.

 

[Thaluikhain]

In any case, I think the answer is to fight against gender stereotypes in general. Feminists and MRA's should be able to theoretically work together on this. The problem is that, if you try to push this, then your biggest opponents will be other MRA's. They'll say that there's a war on men, and that the feminists are trying to contribute to the feminization and psychological castration of America. Then someone will inevitably ask what's so wrong about being a man, blah blah blah.

These are the most likely the same men that only bring up mens rights as a way to argue against feminism.

Yeah, that's the tragedy of the MRM, it (on the whole) sees the best way to improve men's rights is to prevent improvement of women's, or to reduce them back to some imagined paradise version of the 50s. Now, of course, this is not true of all, but most MRAs are reactionaries.

 

[Erttheking]

Here is a clear example of what op was talking about and further more you also give us good text book example of slut shaming.

Care to explain? I'm all ears just for you. Slut shaming? You're putting words in my mouth.

Actually this is a clear cut example of what I was talking about. When the person you were talking to brought up that women have to deal with institutional sexism, you brought up the fact that men have to deal with that too. As a counter-argument to disprove the validity of feminism. In the thread that I made to voice my frustration with people doing that, as not only does it belittle the struggles of women and feminists for no real reason, it reduces the plights of men to a counter-argument.

As for slut shamming, when the person you were talking to brought up how women have to deal with sexual harassment, you gave two reasons for it. One of them was that women dressed provocatively, implying that this problem would be lesser if women didn't do that. Pretty clear cut case of slut shamming. Not to mention I have to question whether this is even accurate. Is there any evidence that dressing provocatively increases the chances of sexual harassment?

 

[Fox12]

Reproductive rights,

Do you mean sterilisation or paternity leave? If you mean the former, then you don't know your geography and if you mean the latter then it isn't black and white although it is expected from the employer for the men to continue working.

sexual harassment

It's expected for the men to make the first move from men and women. It also doesn't really help then women tend to dress provocatively.

...

I am not victim blaming, it's a factor among many others, drugs is another.

"Victim blaming occurs when the victim of a crime or any wrongful act is held entirely or partially responsible for the harm that befell them. The study of victimology seeks to mitigate the perception of victims as responsible."

Uh, what you just described is literally the definition of victim blaming. Also, unwanted sexual harassment is unacceptable, from either gender. I don't care what a person is dressed like. The fault lies with the person performing a crime, not the victim of a crime.

equal representation

For men or for women? There are two side on that matter and often polarised in terms of profession. Could you be more specific other than naming a generic term that apply to both of the sexes?

institutionalised sexism in general

Another generic term that apply to both of the sexes. Prejudice comes in positive and negative forms but are both equally harmful.

The proper response is to end instances of institutionalized sexism, where it exists, for both sexes. If most MRA's actually cared about these issues then they could probably work with feminism to end the problem. Equal right's isn't a zero sum game. You don't lose rights by giving them to others. The fact that you brought this up as a counter-argument to OP's posts kind of proves his point : /

 

[Hero in a half shell]

I think it may be a Western society thing more than a gendered thing.

In the West meritocracy is pretty much ingrained into society; You work hard, and you will succeed. If you fail it's because you didn't want it hard enough.

The problems that plague men do not plague all men in the same way that women's problems tend to affect a wider range of women.
Women are told that the pay gap affects them all for example, and other issues such as domestic violence could happen to any of them at any time and are completely out of their hands.

But when you look at men's issues;
You don't have to worry about prison rape if you just stay out of prison - It's their own fault for doing the crime!
You don't need to worry about homelessness if you just work hard at your job - It's their own fault for not working!
You don't need to worry about domestic abuse shelters - You can't be emotionally hurt, you're a man!
You don't need to worry about suicide - Only depressed people commit suicide and as we said, you have no emotions. You're a Man!

These generally are all issues that come about when the person is down and out, and society tells us that if men get down and out it's because they were lazy, stupid or both. So men don't tend to worry about men's issues because firstly we imagine that the men seen to be suffering from them are never going to be us, and the men that are couldn't cut it in society.

 

[Erttheking]

Snip

Hm...you raise a good point. I'd still argue it's a gendered thing, but after reading your post I'd revise it into saying that it's a gendered thing heavily influenced by other values. Really the two heavily intertwine.

 

[Lightspeaker]

It's never been "acceptable" to speak up and complain.

Except you are drastically misrepresenting the inherent imbalance in acceptability over discussing a number of subjects in light of the relative expectations society has for men and women and how they are presented in society. Rape is the classic example. Rape of women by men is almost always (rightfully) presented as a terrible, terrible thing. Rape of men by women is presented as a punchline or a metaphorical high-five to the victim; its presented as non-serious and trivial.

You can't fight for change and whine about the price of change in the same breath, and frankly there is no fight for change here, just the whine.

I have literally no idea what you're talking about here. It seems entirely irrelevant to the very real issue of societal expectations and the consequent peer pressure to never speak out.

 

[mad825]

Is there any evidence that dressing provocatively increases the chances of sexual harassment?

Increasing the chances? That's a really wrong assumption to make but I would argue it effects the severity for some people. Sexual harassment is such a generic term, it could mean whistling at a girl on the street to full-on physical contact with the added fact it was unwanted.

The people who do volatile the physical boundaries, were they good people to begin with? Do they have a history with illegal activities? Opportunistic behaviours are prone to stimuli.

 

[Erttheking]

Is there any evidence that dressing provocatively increases the chances of sexual harassment?

Increasing the chances? That's a really wrong assumption to make but I would argue it effects the severity for some people. Sexual harassment is such a generic term, it could mean whistling at a girl on the street to full-on physical contact with the added fact it was unwanted.

The people who do volatile the physical boundaries, were they good people to begin with? Do they have a history with illegal activities?

I ask again, is there any evidence to this? Is there anything to suggest that wearing sexy clothing increases the severity of sexual harassment? And it's still slut shamming, saying that it gets worse because of how the woman was dressed is still saying that the woman's suffering is coming from what she wore.

That's not relevant to the topic

 

[the December King]

So, are we going to talk about some male issues now as a discussion topic?

What the hell, I'll start... at least I think it's a male issue, though maybe not super-far reaching.

I want to take a Brazilian Ju Jitsu class offered locally- I know the instructor and he seems quite proficient. I've wanted to learn a more physical martial art for a while now, as Iaido is all well and good, but might not be the most practical in terms of fitness or self-defense.

The thing is, is that I flat-out refuse to grapple a woman. I just won't do it, and once more, it's not because I think I'm going to hurt her. I don't want to lose in a physical altercation to a woman, even if it's not technically a fight but a series of rules and forms that we all are learning. Simple as that- as a man, I feel it would emasculate me, and make me quite furious, yet appear pathetic and weak to all who watched it happen. This is a part of masculinity that I can sense is debilitating, but I simply cannot seem to get past it- in my mind, ideally, men should be stronger and more combat-ready. I'm not, mind you, but I wish to be, and I'm afraid that getting beaten by a woman while attempting to reach my goal would feel disgraceful.

I've explained this to the instructor, and he has suggested private classes to avoid rolling with female practitioners, as there is no all-male class- though there is an all-female class. I'm not bitter about that, by the way- I didn't want to come off that way, especially in light of my hang up. I get that some women might not want to grapple with men and would want a separate class, and that those reasons aren't the same as my wanting to be in an all-male class.

There, the genie is out of the bottle, I guess. Just a little slice of life.