Male problems only ever come up as a counter-argument

[cleric of the order]

possibly being ostracized by our peers if we don't fit into a stupid overly masculine stereotype,

dude no offense but this sounds kinda salty. depends on where you've grown up but seriously, I'm a massive nerd and when i took weightlifting the jocks were actually pretty swell, harping on people is what they do. you got to roll with the licks man.

a massive stigma against acting feminine lest we be accused of having the gay (Seriously, this irritates me so much I want to make out with the nearest man just to make a point.)

I dunno man, we live in one of the most accepting points in history for these sorts of things.
though on gay i should point out that words of that type are often used against people that fit the term.
Not necessarily gay but the type to be offended by it are often very...prone to being called that.

So why the Hell is all of this only ever brought up to shut up someone else up?

my city is trying to bring in man spreading laws.
and recently i think a battered men's shelter closed roughly in the same time frame
men have a high suicide rate, and all the things you mentioned BUT WE FOCUS ON HOW PEOPLE SIT FOR CHRISSAKE.
people have actually been arrested for this in New York if i am not mistaken.
either way a disproportionate amount of time has been spent here than helping people in need.
At this point the groups that should be campaigning for the rights of men and women, are not focusing on the right issues and if we are to have one vehicle with the institutional power to do that,(feminism) then personally i think perhaps the complainants leveled at my associates and well betters are reasonable.

Seriously, I rarely see anyone saying ANYTHING about this stuff is when someone else is trying to talk about their problems (Yes I'm talking about feminism here, but I'm trying to avoid it talking about it because mentioning it always causes the argument to be derailed). And that drives me insane. Logically I thought that the people who bring them up as counter-arguments would really be invested in male problems, but when there isn't a discussion about feminism going on, they never really get brought up.

Not all people can do this but see.
I certainly don't have the time and money to create a homeless center or to help with these problems but there are movements that you named that are supposedly there to help issues like that.

I had a bit of a bullying problem in high school because I was the quiet shy kid and not a loud abrasive asshole,

maybe you were just bad at taking bullying, i got bullied for most of my life and i was a nerd, portly an autistic.
however when i stopped giving a shit during grade 11 a lot of things changed. The shit faces that were bullying me left me alone, I got on pretty good terms with them and went about my shit.

I've had people say something to the effect of "Oh, well I guess you think you're some sort of exception to the gender"

weird, in the middle ages and for quite a while after it was always assumed that women had no power over their sex, and were horndogs. see the witch trials and the seduction by satan. we've gone full circle ain't we.

when I mentioned that I wasn't a massive horndog constantly trying to get laid during my teenage years, and just yesterday an old woman was grabbing my hands at work, if the genders had been reversed the police would've been called. And yet no one really brings up these problems unless it's to shut up someone else's arguments.

you'd still have to call the police. dude are you going to call the police.

Do you know of any places where they're talked about in a constructive way?

I would hope A voice for men does it. but I can't care enough to check them out.
if not i am sure there are egalitarian sites that focus on it.

Why do you think they're never talked about?

Two things
you know Erin Pizzey, lovely woman and an exceptional human being to from my perspective.
I suggest looking at her talks on youtube if you can, don't skimp out and go to wikipedia. The woman cares, and i mean really cares about an issue i am personally concerned with and has handled these sorts of things.
but the rub is she got some violence for shit like that
alternatively on the internet
remember that thread for kids that didn't have fathers?
remember how that turned out?
these sorts of things attract MRA and feminists and what you get is pretty obvious

How do you think that can be fixed?

no and I'm not sure if it will ever be fixed in a good way.

(Oh, and something sad? The most I've seen online talking about male problems is a feminist Tumblr account I follow. Yeah, as much as people like to talk about Tumblr as being Misandric, all the talking about male problems that I've seen online have come from Tumblr.)

and how do they tackle it, what do they talk about.
More importantly what do they do about it.
a very common statement in the media today is "Start a conversation" like it means something.
All it does is provoke action, someone has to act and the implication that that these halfwits have done something for talking to people is sop. the people that had the strength of character and personality to stand up alone and work, help and save people are the people who have done things. Not the modern day twaddle that sit barking back and forth to each other like toothless dogs.
The best thing in my opinion you my friend can do for people is to help individuals.
Go to a soup kitchen, sign up for youth problems or get rich enough to fund this shit.
Because the government doesn't give two shits.

Yeah...that's part of the whole stupid masculine ideals. Men who talk about their problems are pussies.

and i think they are rather noble ideals.
To strive for individuality and to be as self sufficient possible.
In this case a man who is unwilling to stand and take action on their problems is a coward. though one should give a reckoning to the limited agency of a person gassing on about one's problems without a solution, plan or otherwise is masturbatory or done in a way to promote other people to act upon your behalf rather than with your assistance.
But that is a bit of an extreme because I know as sure as shit lads'll complain a bit over a beer or the like. all all that much, complaining and whinging on about your problems is fucking selfish and annoying.

Also I've never seen those people called pussies for doing that unless they were quite well wimpy and carried themselves as such.

 

[the December King]

So, are we going to talk about some male issues now as a discussion topic?

What the hell, I'll start... at least I think it's a male issue, though maybe not super-far reaching.

I want to take a Brazilian Ju Jitsu class offered locally- I know the instructor and he seems quite proficient. I've wanted to learn a more physical martial art for a while now, as Iaido is all well and good, but might not be the most practical in terms of fitness or self-defense.

The thing is, is that I flat-out refuse to grapple a woman. I just won't do it, and once more, it's not because I think I'm going to hurt her. I don't want to lose in a physical altercation to a woman, even if it's not technically a fight but a series of rules and forms that we all are learning. Simple as that- as a man, I feel it would emasculate me, and make me quite furious, yet appear pathetic and weak to all who watched it happen. This is a part of masculinity that I can sense is debilitating, but I simply cannot seem to get past it- in my mind, ideally, men should be stronger and more combat-ready. I'm not, mind you, but I wish to be, and I'm afraid that getting beaten by a woman while attempting to reach my goal would feel disgraceful.

I've explained this to the instructor, and he has suggested private classes to avoid rolling with female practitioners, as there is no all-male class- though there is an all-female class. I'm not bitter about that, by the way- I didn't want to come off that way, especially in light of my hang up. I get that some women might not want to grapple with men and would want a separate class, and that those reasons aren't the same as my wanting to be in an all-male class.

There, the genie is out of the bottle, I guess. Just a little slice of life.

I can understand where you're coming from, but I wonder if you actually got into a class with those women if your view might change? It won't be a woman you're fighting after all, it'll be someone with a name, someone you know. Ideally it'll be someone you respect for their talent and strength. There's no shame in losing to someone in martial arts, it's a learning experience. I bet that if you actually got into that fight, and lost, your reaction would surprise you. You'd want to win, but you'd have the respect for your opponent that comes from a fight, you know what I mean?

Some things, you have to dive into headfirst.

I will certainly not say it's out of the question, that's for sure. And yes, I'd like to think that I gave it my best and lost to a better opponent, I'd realize that and learn from it, and move on, especially the earlier matches where it's all about learning, really. But it's a game of perception, and I'm having a lot of difficulty accepting this point of view. Losing feels bad to some extent no matter who you are against, and not appearing weak in front of others is a core element of masculinity. It's a dicey pickle, to be sure.

Thanks for the response, I kinda stuck my neck out there!

 

[Zenn3k]

Because men inherently are not big complainers, we deal with our problems and keep them OUR problems for the most part.

Women complain CONSTANTLY, so in order to counter them, we finally let out a big sigh and explain that no, you don't have it worse, in fact, you have it the best, stfu already.

 

[Batou667]

snip

Yeah, I'd say that's a legitimate example of a way society doesn't cater to (all) men, and it's one I brought up before a few times. Basically, it's the idea that all social spaces should cater to women as a matter of equality, but simultaneously there should exist female-only spaces for those contexts where male presence is for whatever reason undesirable. It effectively denies the existence (or perhaps just legitimacy) of any males who want to temporarily be in an all-male space - whether that be be for letting their hair down, male bonding, due to social anxiety, whatever. The common objections, IIRC, are that a) women deserve a slice of the pie - all pies - because, duh, equality, and b) any activity that a man wouldn't feel comfortable doing in the presence of a woman is by definition an activity they shouldn't be doing, period (only the guilty need fear judgement, etc).

It's one of the sleights of hand of modern deconstructivist feminism. "Masculine" has been redefined as being toxic, destructive, emotionally stunted, negative; and given that seldom-contested premise, who wouldn't want to tear down masculinity? But on the other hand, keep your hands off our femininity. Being female is something to be celebrated after generations of repression, don't you know.

It's a paradox. It's a paradigm that simultaneously erodes the gender binary, while ultimately relying on the gender binary to justify its existence.

 

[Thaluikhain]

and other issues such as domestic violence could happen to any of them at any time and are completely out of their hands.

While there's truth in what you say, I disagree with this part. Women are routinely told they are to blame for domestic violence. Hell, in the US, women are imprisoned because their partner abused them and their kids.

 

[Rahkshi500]

Pretty much reasons of what others have explained. Another reason why I think is that a lot still have the mindset that we're in a post-modern society where everything is equal or better, or at least has become as good as we can possibly make it, because the world is a messed up place and we end up coming to accept that's how it is and we have to deal with that.

 

[Lightspeaker]

Rape of women by men is a really common crime. Rape of men by women is one of the least common crimes. That's usually the answer you'll get from most people. And they'd be right.

Because someone is a minority (in this case a male rape victim) it means they don't matter then? Okay then.

Frankly I think your attitude of "male issues don't matter" is rather sexist honestly. And the fact that you think that people have difficulty talking about their issues is just a personal thing and not societal pressure is just mind boggling.

 

[The Lunatic]

If you mention any of the issues in the OP you will be regarded as one of the following by the majority of people:


Weak.

A Crazed MRA.

A Misogynist.


The problem is, especially on the internet is that any area in which men can discuss issues that affect men is almost immediately regarded as being some sort of "Anti-feminist" hate group, a bunch of "Beta faggots" and so on.

Stuff like "The Red Pill", as much as I don't really like the idea, is regarded as all of the above, yet if you flip the genders, it's the kind of thing that would probably be cheered as "Woman power".

 

[CrystalShadow]

Yeah, on a tangent, I always found the 'well other people have it worse!' reply you get so easily from people so frustrating.

Like other people in the world having it worse somehow negates your own problems?

Why is this a thing exactly?
"I am totally stressed out because I'm living on borrowed money just to feed myself and keep a roof over my head, and can't find a solution"

"oh yeah? Well, some people don't even have food, or a place to sleep, so you're lucky!"

In other words, stop complaining because your problems aren't as big as those of some random person neither of you know somewhere else.
Therefore, since your problems aren't the biggest that could possibly be, I don't need to care in the slightest, and you just need to shut up.

Yeah. Fun. -_-

 

[mad825]

And it's still slut shamming, saying that it gets worse because of how the woman was dressed is still saying that the woman's suffering is coming from what she wore.

People are judged on the clothes they wear, people are stereotyped by others by their appearance, it's a form of identity. You have an effect on other people.

Again, I've never stated that woman's suffering is coming from what she wore. I'm saying it compounds to the problem and it is very situational, do you understand? It is not an absolutist statement. It is adding fuel to the fire, you understand that idiom?

If you're new to this world, your life and your death is simply a probability labyrinth. The choices that you make effects that probability.

 

[Something Amyss]

It reeks of insincerity. If the only time people bring up men's issues is as a counter to "feminism," they don't behave in a way that makes me think they actually care.

A lot of the MRAs I come across are the first to call me a **** or tell me to get raped. I don't think they're really interested in men's rights.

Like other people in the world having it worse somehow negates your own problems?

And, again, show me someone who doesn't complain about their own problems, so this sort of argument also rings hollow.

 

[Something Amyss]

If you mention any of the issues in the OP you will be regarded as one of the following by the majority of people:


Weak.

A Crazed MRA.

A Misogynist.

I'm curious, which one do you think I get labeled? Because I do talk about these. The ironic thing is that when they're not used as a counter-argument against women, the people who are so gung ho to talk about them go away really fast.

 

[CrystalShadow]

It reeks of insincerity. If the only time people bring up men's issues is as a counter to "feminism," they don't behave in a way that makes me think they actually care.

A lot of the MRAs I come across are the first to call me a **** or tell me to get raped. I don't think they're really interested in men's rights.

Like other people in the world having it worse somehow negates your own problems?

And, again, show me someone who doesn't complain about their own problems, so this sort of argument also rings hollow.

It's a super-common counter-response to anyone that says they are having issues.

A common way of being incredibly dismissive.
'first world problems' is an extreme form of it.

It happens so much you'd wonder why people feel they need to hide behind it.
Might as well just say you don't care, it'd be more honest.

 

[Lightspeaker]

It reeks of insincerity. If the only time people bring up men's issues is as a counter to "feminism," they don't behave in a way that makes me think they actually care.

I think you missed the part where the point being made by several people is that the reason it only ever comes up that time is because its not "socially acceptable" to bring it up at any other time. It comes up then out of a combination of frustration and helplessness at being silenced.

As someone who had therapy for clinically diagnosed depressing and anxiety I'm actually acutely familiar with that exact feeling. There is a societal bias against discussing it because its seen as a shameful thing, or the punchline to a joke in some cases. There are a lot of parallels from what I've seen in this thread, frankly.

 

[Animyr]

So why the Hell is all of this only ever brought up to shut up someone else up?

Because not even other men care about the problems men face (speaking generally, of course). They don't find them all that threatening or troubling, really. They just want others--usually women--to stop complaining. Things are fine the way they are! Look at us men; we have it sooo baaad--as bad if not worse then you--and we're cool with things. Therefore you have no excuse to complain.

It's a rhetorical strategy more than a genuine lament.

Because men inherently are not big complainers, we deal with our problems and keep them OUR problems for the most part.

Women complain CONSTANTLY, so in order to counter them, we finally let out a big sigh and explain that no, you don't have it worse, in fact, you have it the best, stfu already.

Case in point.

 

[Ryan Minns]

I see it brought up often but simply ignored or even attacked.

 

[The Lunatic]

I'm curious, which one do you think I get labeled? Because I do talk about these. The ironic thing is that when they're not used as a counter-argument against women, the people who are so gung ho to talk about them go away really fast.

Well, I know more about you off-hand as I've shared a forum with you for... However long.

So, I don't know really. I don't really think I'd accuse you of being any of those, but, I don't really accuse people of being those things to begin with.

As for myself, I've tried to talk about mental health issues that affect men, however, upon doing so, I was told that it's "Not a gender issue" and the fact men were committing suicide at so much of a higher rate than women was "Not important" and was accused of, in my focus on the man's side of thing, of belittling the experience that women go through, despite making no real mention of women in general.


So, I just kinda gave up on it. That combined with my own working through the system makes things a bit tiresome.

I kinda think it's a lost cause, so, I don't really bother.

 

[CeeBod]

possibly being ostracized by our peers if we don't fit into a stupid overly masculine stereotype, a massive stigma against acting feminine lest we be accused of having the gay

I have to ask, is this really still a thing? I know kids are generally stupid, and therefore playground insults probably haven't moved on much since I left school, but my experience in the UK is that the only people still bothered by the existance of homosexuality are generally either right wing extremist groups, fundamentalist religeous types or the old and unreformed (racism/sexism and all other isms seems to be perfectly acceptable for the over 60s for some reason). I can only think of one friend of mine that has ever actually looked worried about the prospect of going drinking in Manchester's gay village (maybe he did think you could actually catch the gay!) and we went to school over 25 years ago, so we're fast approaching the age where we're allowed to be unreformed old gits!

Is it a UK/US difference? Is it worse now with social media pressures, etc? Am I rambling again?

 

[Something Amyss]

'first world problems' is an extreme form of it.

First World Problems was intended to be a self-referential jab. It's sort of a shame that was lost in the mix. I'm a fan of self-deprecating humour. It gets me through.

I think you missed the part where the point being made by several people is that the reason it only ever comes up that time is because its not "socially acceptable" to bring it up at any other time.

Please don't speak for me. I didn't miss the point, forget or ignore anything. I reject the premise. People keep claiming it, and they can claim it all they want.

So, I don't know really. I don't really think I'd accuse you of being any of those, but, I don't really accuse people of being those things to begin with.

The correct answer is "none of the above." Weirdly enough, though, rather than getting support from men or the MRAs specifically, I get yelled at because I'm a goddamned feminazi mangina ****. Oddly enough, I would think those would be the people I'd want agreeing with me if I were in this position.

It's hard to view this as anything other than a contrarian argument.

But the reality is, this site had several "feminists" on it who were more than happy to talk about men's issues. And they were driven off the site in the great SJW purge of 2014. At least one of them went so far as to have their account deleted.

The reality is, feminists have been bringing up equality issues for decades and been scoffed at. The MRM says it wants draft equality, but has scoffed at NOW. NOW made draft equality an issue in 1980--35 years ago. The current lawsuit that may end up changing the way SS operates is from a woman who wants to be treated equally. This could have the impact of addressing an MRA talking point--and she's been shit on for it. Hell, women have fought to be in frontline combat for decades and been met with resistence by the same organisations who claim the military is sexist against men.

But we're not being called misogynists. or MRAs. At least, not most of us.

Oh, and just watch what happens when the phrase "toxic masculinity," which is exactly what's being described in this thread, is brought up.

 

[Eddie the head]

Not really. I remember see just the opposite on this sight a few times in fact. Someone made a thread about a guy having to deal with false rape claims, and every other comment was about how actual rape is more common. Someone talked about how there's no battered men's shelters every replay to that guy was about how battered women's shelters are more important.

My guess is that you're looking for that, and you know what they say? Life is like a box of chocolates you're only going to remember the taste of coconut.