Male problems only ever come up as a counter-argument

[Eclipse Dragon]

It also doesn't really help then women tend to dress provocatively.

Ah yes, victim blaming, thank you for the example.

Oh look who's grasping for straws.

Dressing provocatively has and is long been associated with trying to attract a sexual mate. Some guys get the wrong message and quite frankly every person has a good degree of responsibility for their own safety which apparently doesn't seem to apply to women. You reap what you sow.

I'm going to attempt to explain the thought process of dressing "provocatively" as it's something I myself didn't understand for the longest time [footnote]and is an aspect I don't often see discussed on these forums from this angle[/footnote] until I gave it a try. I asked myself, why dress in revealing clothing, why put on make up? This isn't me, it's just a mask.

But you see, it's not about how you look, not really, it's about how you feel, this is how Bayonetta can be both everything feminists love and everything feminists hate all at the same time. Dressing in this way to a women is similar to a man wearing a suit, it instills a feeling of confidence and power, which gives off a very different vibe in social situations than if she were dressed matronly.

When I tried it, I was no longer afraid of how people would perceive me, quite the opposite and this also led me to push myself to become even better, I started working out, eating better, being more social, now I endeavor to look my best in whatever situation and the results have been more positive than not, and no, I'm not trying to attract a sexual mate, I have one already and just because I do, that doesn't mean I'm suddenly going to stop.

Spin that however you want, I don't expect to change your opinion and Ert has expressed he wants this thread to be specifically about men's issues and already we're branching off into women's issues.

Also rape is a crime of power committed by people who are woefully insecure, note I said "people" not "men" because men can be raped too and when it happens, it's probably not because he was dressed provocatively.

--------------------------------------------

Because men inherently are not big complainers, we deal with our problems and keep them OUR problems for the most part.

Women complain CONSTANTLY, so in order to counter them, we finally let out a big sigh and explain that no, you don't have it worse, in fact, you have it the best, stfu already.

But do you keep your problems to yourself because society tells you that you should and that you're unmanly if you voice your unhappiness?

 

[chikusho]

The majority of men's problems are discussed all the time, every day, everywhere.
The most commonly used term for men's problems is "problems", and they are given ample coverage, attention and concern at all levels of society.

 

[Thaluikhain]

the very point you call it "toxic" shows how biased and degrading the opinion about men is.

No, there is a bias against the way men are "supposed" to be.

EDIT: Not least because the idea that there is one, and only one, acceptable way for men to be is harmful.

 

[Cowabungaa]

It's not the strongest of my points but what you said is like saying teaching anti-Semitic ideas is comparable to teaching Jewish culture and history, even if there is a connection, the very point you call it "toxic" shows how biased and degrading the opinion about men is.

What? I'm not sure you realize what the concept of 'toxic masculinity', or hegemonic masculinity in proper terms, refers to. It's simply the concept that there's certain societal standards of what masculinity is supposed to be in certain societies and that that's harmful to a lot of people (me being one of 'em).

Think the idea that men are not supposed to talk about their feelings, that one has to adhere to certain levels of sexual conduct, the importance of physical prowess, etc etc. And with that the exclusiveness it brings, of men who don't fall within that framework. And with that come problems like suppressed mental health issues, bullying, you name it. And those are genuine issues that have nothing to do with some kind of degrading view towards men.

 

[Erttheking]

3. The academic world is overly connected to feminism, meaning people who deal in men's rights must do it on their own.

Except that academic feminism deals with problems like toxic masculinity too as it covers a broad spectrum of issues related to gender roles. So no, it's not the academic world you should look at for this problem, it's civil discourse.

It's not the strongest of my points but what you said is like saying teaching anti-Semitic ideas is comparable to teaching Jewish culture and history, even if there is a connection, the very point you call it "toxic" shows how biased and degrading the opinion about men is.

Masculinity =/= men. Masculinity is a social concept, it was constructed by people. It is not an inherent part of who men are.

And even then toxic masculinity =/= all masculinity. If I say "Poisonous wine", I'm not saying all wine is poisonous. Toxic masculinity is a thing and it's something I've had to deal with first hand.

 

[Something Amyss]

It's not the strongest of my points but what you said is like saying teaching anti-Semitic ideas is comparable to teaching Jewish culture and history, even if there is a connection, the very point you call it "toxic" shows how biased and degrading the opinion about men is.

Now I'm curious as to what you think "toxic masculinity" means. Are you under the impression that this statement is that masculinity is toxic?

No, there is a bias against the way men are "supposed" to be.

EDIT: Not least because the idea that there is one, and only one, acceptable way for men to be is harmful.

Not to mention the associated social stigmas for not behaving according to those "rules."

 

[Something Amyss]

If I say "Poisonous wine", I'm not saying all wine is poisonous.

I imagine, however, that if people had already subscribe to "wine culture," they might balk at it on sight.

 

[Super Cyborg]

I might have seen this come up a few times reading threads, but I don't recall at the top of my head any time reading it. Then again, I generally stick to a few sights where things stay overall tame.

I think the main problem comes down to what is perceived as more important to society at large, or more accurately, what a certain group of people are pushing to be the most important issue. The suicide rate for men is high, but people find that half the population is getting unfair wage treatment more important than X% of half a population. Then in the US you have a shooting or some big scandal happen, and instead of talking about the really important problems gossip is spread about the events that just transpired. That causes any important discussions to be halted, and in the case of shooting have the whole gun control debate happen for the 100th time.

In the end, I think the most important thing that needs to happen is break down perceptions of what a person has to be. I've had the problem where people have given me crap for not fitting the type. I've been questioned for being a male at 25 and never having gotten drunk or laid yet. The fact that I don't get into physical fights or don't partake in verbally abusing someone for a joke raises eyebrows (granted this has been from this year working with a particular crew off shore, so it could be a small exception). Instead of people making judgments because of your sex and choices, they should just be fine with it. Your a man/woman who likes to go drinking all the time and have one night stands? Not my thing but that's who you are. Your above thirty and you don't drink much and haven't had sex yet? Cool, what do you do in your free time?

How to get to that point is the important part. We might have issues we want solved, but sometimes you might have to wait. Perhaps you want to work on how Men are expected to act a certain way. How about you help push a current issue to be solved and during that time start spreading around what the next problem that should be solved. It sucks, but one by one if we can work together, we can slowly make things better.

 

[Something Amyss]

Or if they're just hyper-reactive people with no lives who want to be in a constant state of DRAMA, they might take offense at everything.

Or, and this doesn't really contradict my prior post, but or they're hyperrreactive because people in a position of privilege tend to be overly sensitive.

 

[1981]

That's a long and winding way to say that you just believe people should "Suck it up." It's no more useful or palatable in your formulation. The problem isn't how you say what you say, it's the actual ideas you have.

I'm not sure what you're getting at. What are your ideas and how are they different from mine? I wasn't being dismissive (towards the OP).

As far as that imagined trauma goes, I was going to go into detail and mention the documentaries I've seen, but then I thought about it for three more seconds and realized what a bad idea it was. This isn't the place for that discussion.

As for not getting hung up on things, it may have sounded condescending but I was speaking from personal experience. This thread is about why men's problems are often being brought up only as counter-arguments. That's why I didn't go into detail on the second point either.

 

[1981]

The problem with personal experience is in the name, "Personal". Applying your personal story to more than seven billion other people with their own lives and stories doesn't work.

That's where you're wrong. Ignoring the collective wisdom is a big part of the problem.

 

[Batou667]

No, there is a bias against the way men are "supposed" to be.

EDIT: Not least because the idea that there is one, and only one, acceptable way for men to be is harmful.

I don't for a minute believe that there's "one, and only one, [socially] acceptable" version of masculinity. I mean, if you were to try describing this male paradigm, where would you begin? Because I'm confident that for every criterion you suggest, I can come up with a counter-example.

 

[Thaluikhain]

there are no "masculinities" at best different views on it in the world, and the one usually mentioned is the western one, meaning "western masculinity" is toxic.

True, though I'm not seeing this as much of a problem, provided we are talking about western society.

women almost certinely have bigger impact than man on solidifying the idea of masculinity, yet treat the subject as if it's male's fault.

I disagree with the first part, but acknowledging it as a problem doesn't require identifying the cause.

Fourth, even then, it's still not talking about where men get screwed the most, IE the court, but about society which is feminism's home field.

Also strongly disagree that the court is the place causing most problems for men, but in any case, it's hardly separate from the society it operates in.

I don't for a minute believe that there's "one, and only one, [socially] acceptable" version of masculinity. I mean, if you were to try describing this male paradigm, where would you begin? Because I'm confident that for every criterion you suggest, I can come up with a counter-example.

Eh, the usual stuff about masculinity being in contrast to femininity, that men are always supposed to be strong and dominant and so on.

Now, of course, there's more than one way to be a man in our society, not everyone holds to that ideal of masculinity (there'd hardly be people calling it toxic if that was the case).

 

[Erttheking]

Snip

Jumping to conclusions there. There is more than one type of masculinity in the west. Just because one type of masculinity is criticized in the west, doesn't mean all is.

As for it being phrased to give you that idea, no it isn't due to the way basic grammar structure works and how people have constantly been pointing it out. You're just choosing to see it that way because you've made up your mind that's what it means, even though you've constantly been corrected.

I'm sorry, women create the idea of masculinity? Women don't tell me I'm a pussy if I cry. Women don't call me a ****** if I'm a virgin. Women don't encourage me to be stoic in everyday life Men do. Men do all of these things. In my life, women have been an ESCAPE from this. The women who supported these ideals were in the minority. Where the hell do you get the idea of women creating the ideal of masculinity?

Well that's not really related to the topic now is it? Toxic Masculinity isn't about the court, they're two separate issues, so why would we bring up courts when we're talking about something else?

 

[Darkmantle]

I've seen plenty of places where men talk about their issues independent of discussions about women.

I've also seen those places and people invaded and harassed, sometimes even closed down, by self proclaimed feminists.

That is primarily why I fight with feminists. Feminism is well entrenched and powerful enough to squash discussions of men's rights issues, and often are perfectly willing to do so for their own ends.

In fact, "Feminism" often stands squarely in the way of equality for men. I know I'm kind of a one issue voter in this case, but domestic violence against men is actively denied and hidden by feminists in general, which makes opening and maintaining a Men's shelter extremely difficult. The only one here in Canada for example, was wildly protested and opposed by feminists, and eventually had to shut down when it was denied funding given freely to women's shelters. The proprietor ended up hanging himself, committed suicide, another men's issue that isn't being addressed.

 

[Cowabungaa]

Except I only ever hear about it when there's a degrading view of men...

Because societal discourse is pretty crap when these matters are concerned, and vastly different from how these matters are treated in an academic setting.

 

[maninahat]

Oh yeah, endlessly frustrating that most people only care about, for example, male prison rape, in order to "prove" that female rape shouldn't be seen as an issue, while generally seeing it as hilarious or necessary at other times. And it's still feminists that hate men, apparently.

The problems men have to go through deserve to be more than that. Maybe I'm wrong, I HOPE I'm wrong, but seeing men's problems talked about online is a rare thing. Am I wrong? If so please tell me. Do you know of any places where they're talked about in a constructive way? Have you seen them discussed here in a significant way? Why do you think they're never talked about? How do you think that can be fixed?

(Oh, and something sad? The most I've seen online talking about male problems is a feminist Tumblr account I follow. Yeah, as much as people like to talk about Tumblr as being Misandric, all the talking about male problems that I've seen online have come from Tumblr.)

Lots of feminists and feminist sites talk about men's problems. I'd recommend Shakesville (though that talks about all sorts of social problems, so only a small part is about men).

Google "No Seriously what about the menz?" It's another good one, which talks about male issues without transforming into some deluded MRA anti-feminazi expose. As substantiation to the above, I also found about this website through a feminist blog.

 

[aba1]

If you pay attention to these things then you will start to see trends. The MRA's actually try and address the issues you are bringing up and they have made some headway the problem is literally feminists. I know that sounds like a bit much but they are kinda the establishment so when ever any group tries to do anything involving mens issues feminists fight tooth and nail to shut them down.

I have seen it so many times I can't even count then they will turn around and say they care about men too while ignoring how much they hinder these issues. Like when feminists petitioned to have the laws on rape changed in the US but conveniently set it up so that only men could be rapists. Its so easy to find examples and I know people always say that they aren't true feminists or that they or a small minority but honestly they are the ones who run the movement. All the ideology and campaigns within the movement are derived from these people.