Male problems only ever come up as a counter-argument

[Super Cyborg]

I might have seen this come up a few times reading threads, but I don't recall at the top of my head any time reading it. Then again, I generally stick to a few sights where things stay overall tame.

I think the main problem comes down to what is perceived as more important to society at large, or more accurately, what a certain group of people are pushing to be the most important issue. The suicide rate for men is high, but people find that half the population is getting unfair wage treatment more important than X% of half a population. Then in the US you have a shooting or some big scandal happen, and instead of talking about the really important problems gossip is spread about the events that just transpired. That causes any important discussions to be halted, and in the case of shooting have the whole gun control debate happen for the 100th time.

In the end, I think the most important thing that needs to happen is break down perceptions of what a person has to be. I've had the problem where people have given me crap for not fitting the type. I've been questioned for being a male at 25 and never having gotten drunk or laid yet. The fact that I don't get into physical fights or don't partake in verbally abusing someone for a joke raises eyebrows (granted this has been from this year working with a particular crew off shore, so it could be a small exception). Instead of people making judgments because of your sex and choices, they should just be fine with it. Your a man/woman who likes to go drinking all the time and have one night stands? Not my thing but that's who you are. Your above thirty and you don't drink much and haven't had sex yet? Cool, what do you do in your free time?

How to get to that point is the important part. We might have issues we want solved, but sometimes you might have to wait. Perhaps you want to work on how Men are expected to act a certain way. How about you help push a current issue to be solved and during that time start spreading around what the next problem that should be solved. It sucks, but one by one if we can work together, we can slowly make things better.

 

[Something Amyss]

Or if they're just hyper-reactive people with no lives who want to be in a constant state of DRAMA, they might take offense at everything.

Or, and this doesn't really contradict my prior post, but or they're hyperrreactive because people in a position of privilege tend to be overly sensitive.

 

[1981]

That's a long and winding way to say that you just believe people should "Suck it up." It's no more useful or palatable in your formulation. The problem isn't how you say what you say, it's the actual ideas you have.

I'm not sure what you're getting at. What are your ideas and how are they different from mine? I wasn't being dismissive (towards the OP).

As far as that imagined trauma goes, I was going to go into detail and mention the documentaries I've seen, but then I thought about it for three more seconds and realized what a bad idea it was. This isn't the place for that discussion.

As for not getting hung up on things, it may have sounded condescending but I was speaking from personal experience. This thread is about why men's problems are often being brought up only as counter-arguments. That's why I didn't go into detail on the second point either.

 

[1981]

The problem with personal experience is in the name, "Personal". Applying your personal story to more than seven billion other people with their own lives and stories doesn't work.

That's where you're wrong. Ignoring the collective wisdom is a big part of the problem.

 

[Batou667]

No, there is a bias against the way men are "supposed" to be.

EDIT: Not least because the idea that there is one, and only one, acceptable way for men to be is harmful.

I don't for a minute believe that there's "one, and only one, [socially] acceptable" version of masculinity. I mean, if you were to try describing this male paradigm, where would you begin? Because I'm confident that for every criterion you suggest, I can come up with a counter-example.

 

[Thaluikhain]

there are no "masculinities" at best different views on it in the world, and the one usually mentioned is the western one, meaning "western masculinity" is toxic.

True, though I'm not seeing this as much of a problem, provided we are talking about western society.

women almost certinely have bigger impact than man on solidifying the idea of masculinity, yet treat the subject as if it's male's fault.

I disagree with the first part, but acknowledging it as a problem doesn't require identifying the cause.

Fourth, even then, it's still not talking about where men get screwed the most, IE the court, but about society which is feminism's home field.

Also strongly disagree that the court is the place causing most problems for men, but in any case, it's hardly separate from the society it operates in.

I don't for a minute believe that there's "one, and only one, [socially] acceptable" version of masculinity. I mean, if you were to try describing this male paradigm, where would you begin? Because I'm confident that for every criterion you suggest, I can come up with a counter-example.

Eh, the usual stuff about masculinity being in contrast to femininity, that men are always supposed to be strong and dominant and so on.

Now, of course, there's more than one way to be a man in our society, not everyone holds to that ideal of masculinity (there'd hardly be people calling it toxic if that was the case).

 

[Erttheking]

Snip

Jumping to conclusions there. There is more than one type of masculinity in the west. Just because one type of masculinity is criticized in the west, doesn't mean all is.

As for it being phrased to give you that idea, no it isn't due to the way basic grammar structure works and how people have constantly been pointing it out. You're just choosing to see it that way because you've made up your mind that's what it means, even though you've constantly been corrected.

I'm sorry, women create the idea of masculinity? Women don't tell me I'm a pussy if I cry. Women don't call me a ****** if I'm a virgin. Women don't encourage me to be stoic in everyday life Men do. Men do all of these things. In my life, women have been an ESCAPE from this. The women who supported these ideals were in the minority. Where the hell do you get the idea of women creating the ideal of masculinity?

Well that's not really related to the topic now is it? Toxic Masculinity isn't about the court, they're two separate issues, so why would we bring up courts when we're talking about something else?

 

[Darkmantle]

I've seen plenty of places where men talk about their issues independent of discussions about women.

I've also seen those places and people invaded and harassed, sometimes even closed down, by self proclaimed feminists.

That is primarily why I fight with feminists. Feminism is well entrenched and powerful enough to squash discussions of men's rights issues, and often are perfectly willing to do so for their own ends.

In fact, "Feminism" often stands squarely in the way of equality for men. I know I'm kind of a one issue voter in this case, but domestic violence against men is actively denied and hidden by feminists in general, which makes opening and maintaining a Men's shelter extremely difficult. The only one here in Canada for example, was wildly protested and opposed by feminists, and eventually had to shut down when it was denied funding given freely to women's shelters. The proprietor ended up hanging himself, committed suicide, another men's issue that isn't being addressed.

 

[Cowabungaa]

Except I only ever hear about it when there's a degrading view of men...

Because societal discourse is pretty crap when these matters are concerned, and vastly different from how these matters are treated in an academic setting.

 

[maninahat]

Oh yeah, endlessly frustrating that most people only care about, for example, male prison rape, in order to "prove" that female rape shouldn't be seen as an issue, while generally seeing it as hilarious or necessary at other times. And it's still feminists that hate men, apparently.

The problems men have to go through deserve to be more than that. Maybe I'm wrong, I HOPE I'm wrong, but seeing men's problems talked about online is a rare thing. Am I wrong? If so please tell me. Do you know of any places where they're talked about in a constructive way? Have you seen them discussed here in a significant way? Why do you think they're never talked about? How do you think that can be fixed?

(Oh, and something sad? The most I've seen online talking about male problems is a feminist Tumblr account I follow. Yeah, as much as people like to talk about Tumblr as being Misandric, all the talking about male problems that I've seen online have come from Tumblr.)

Lots of feminists and feminist sites talk about men's problems. I'd recommend Shakesville (though that talks about all sorts of social problems, so only a small part is about men).

Google "No Seriously what about the menz?" It's another good one, which talks about male issues without transforming into some deluded MRA anti-feminazi expose. As substantiation to the above, I also found about this website through a feminist blog.

 

[aba1]

If you pay attention to these things then you will start to see trends. The MRA's actually try and address the issues you are bringing up and they have made some headway the problem is literally feminists. I know that sounds like a bit much but they are kinda the establishment so when ever any group tries to do anything involving mens issues feminists fight tooth and nail to shut them down.

I have seen it so many times I can't even count then they will turn around and say they care about men too while ignoring how much they hinder these issues. Like when feminists petitioned to have the laws on rape changed in the US but conveniently set it up so that only men could be rapists. Its so easy to find examples and I know people always say that they aren't true feminists or that they or a small minority but honestly they are the ones who run the movement. All the ideology and campaigns within the movement are derived from these people.

 

[OldNewNewOld]

There is a group called MRA. People don't take it serious. People call it sexist. People call it misogynystic. People make fun of it.
It fights for man's rights. It tries to point out the problems.

I think it's pretty clear. With 3rd wave feminists putting the blame of pretty much anything of white males, any attempt of fighting for men's rights will be a fast way of getting yourself labeled as worse than a genocidal maniac.

 

[Josh123914]

Yes I said the "P" word.

Well I've just got one thing to say to you.

I completely agree.

Men aren't really encouraged to discuss their own issues like rape statistics and homelessness. It should come as no surprise when people discuss women and their glass ceiling, men who feel hard done by want to bring up a woman's glass floor as well.

 

[Dizchu]

In fact, "Feminism" often stands squarely in the way of equality for men.

This is an interesting observation. While the stereotypical "MRA" only really brings up legitimate male issues as a counter-argument, I find that many feminists have the exact same attitude. When someone accuses feminism of "ignoring male issues", the common response is a reluctant acknowledgement of male issues before returning to the same aggressive shouting they were doing before. The most frustrating thing to me is that most discussions about the problems that men face ultimately end up being about women. "MRA"s make it about "feminism trying to repress masculinity", and feminists make it about "if we address the problems women face, male problems will disappear as a result".

For once I'd like a discussion about these things without mentioning women. Because let's face it, most of the problems men face are caused by other men.

 

[runic knight]

Disagree there, rights aren't zero sum game. Now, plenty of people are invested in not having other's problems talked about, but that's not usually because it helps them gets theirs solved.

Not rights, resources. Namely funding and time that can be put towards addressing and solving problems. It takes effort and funding to fix something that is broken, from a toaster to a social issue, and there is always a limit to how much of both there is out there.

rights aren't zero sum, you are correct, but funding for shelters, legal support, legislation, councilors, the time it takes to examine and assess issues... all of that is limited, and is where the sense of competition can stem from. Those arguing issues as gendered only when they are not only actively inflame that feeling. See the mention above of the Canadian men's domestic abuse shelter being forced to close due to lost funding. I am willing to bet that some of those feminists opposed to the shelter were as invested in shutting it down simply because they thought the funding would be better suited toward their own goals.

Because society views the issue very differently for men and women, though, requiring different solutions. Male prison rape, for example, is viewed very differently from the rape of women in society in general.

Having said that, there's no reason why attempts to deal with all aspects of the issue can't be made simultaneously, they'd just require different solutions.

I would have to think that rape in prisons in general would need to be treated differently than rape that occurs within society itself. Rape of men and women in prison being a failure of those institutions themselves to maintain and control the inmate they are obligated to keep healthy and rehabilitate, I can see why addressing that issue would differ than the rape of men and women within society itself where there is considerable less control of individuals and there isn't a legal consequence when the society fails them.

My point was that a problem such as "rape within society" or "domestic abuse" or whatever else doesn't require a gendered solution despite it having a greater risk toward one gender over another. You comparison between prison rape and society rape seems to be just using the most common risk for either gender but solutions to either sort can probably be applied more holistically and without the need to dwell on them as gendered issue for the most part. And outside of issues based on physical sexual dimorphism such as testicular or ovarian cancer awareness and such, issues in general shouldn't default toward who is more at risk of them as the gender's problem.

 

[Something Amyss]

There is a group called MRA.

And self-declared MRAs are the ones being talked about in this thread and tend to be the ones who will use men's issues as a fillibuster or counter-claim, but nothing otherwise.

This goes right into your second sentence, addressing why they're not taken seriously. Nobody believes the MRM as a whole is out to lift me up rather than keep women down, based on mountains of experience.

 

[1981]

No, there is a bias against the way men are "supposed" to be.

I don't for a minute believe that there's "one, and only one, [socially] acceptable" version of masculinity. I mean, if you were to try describing this male paradigm, where would you begin? Because I'm confident that for every criterion you suggest, I can come up with a counter-example.

There is still some bias, but things are changing. My nephew liked to play with dolls. It wasn't his father but my father who showered him with "boys" things like toy cars lest he turn out "like that". Is it delusional to hope that these archaic ideas will die with that generation? When someone I know cried over the death of his girlfriend, his father said "Crybaby! Men don't do that." Maybe he knows better than to tell his own children that?

I'm sorry, women create the idea of masculinity? Women don't tell me I'm a pussy if I cry. Women don't call me a ****** if I'm a virgin. Women don't encourage me to be stoic in everyday life Men do.

Mm-hmm.

There's nothing collective or wise about your personal story, it's just yours. I know that feels incredibly important, but all of the other seven billion people have the same conceit. If you want to actually collect wisdom though, please do, but don't confuse that with your anecdote.

Why make this personal when you clearly don't know what we're talking about? You don't know how many people I've talked to that have had the same experiences. BTW, that's not what collective means. It's the ability to learn from other people's successes and mistakes. Sorta. I guess.

 

[Zen Bard]

So, are we going to talk about some male issues now as a discussion topic?

What the hell, I'll start... at least I think it's a male issue, though maybe not super-far reaching.

I want to take a Brazilian Ju Jitsu class offered locally- I know the instructor and he seems quite proficient. I've wanted to learn a more physical martial art for a while now, as Iaido is all well and good, but might not be the most practical in terms of fitness or self-defense.

The thing is, is that I flat-out refuse to grapple a woman. I just won't do it, and once more, it's not because I think I'm going to hurt her. I don't want to lose in a physical altercation to a woman, even if it's not technically a fight but a series of rules and forms that we all are learning. Simple as that- as a man, I feel it would emasculate me, and make me quite furious, yet appear pathetic and weak to all who watched it happen. This is a part of masculinity that I can sense is debilitating, but I simply cannot seem to get past it- in my mind, ideally, men should be stronger and more combat-ready. I'm not, mind you, but I wish to be, and I'm afraid that getting beaten by a woman while attempting to reach my goal would feel disgraceful.

I've explained this to the instructor, and he has suggested private classes to avoid rolling with female practitioners, as there is no all-male class- though there is an all-female class. I'm not bitter about that, by the way- I didn't want to come off that way, especially in light of my hang up. I get that some women might not want to grapple with men and would want a separate class, and that those reasons aren't the same as my wanting to be in an all-male class.

There, the genie is out of the bottle, I guess. Just a little slice of life.

I can understand where you're coming from, but I wonder if you actually got into a class with those women if your view might change? It won't be a woman you're fighting after all, it'll be someone with a name, someone you know. Ideally it'll be someone you respect for their talent and strength. There's no shame in losing to someone in martial arts, it's a learning experience. I bet that if you actually got into that fight, and lost, your reaction would surprise you. You'd want to win, but you'd have the respect for your opponent that comes from a fight, you know what I mean?

Some things, you have to dive into headfirst.

I will certainly not say it's out of the question, that's for sure. And yes, I'd like to think that I gave it my best and lost to a better opponent, I'd realize that and learn from it, and move on, especially the earlier matches where it's all about learning, really. But it's a game of perception, and I'm having a lot of difficulty accepting this point of view. Losing feels bad to some extent no matter who you are against, and not appearing weak in front of others is a core element of masculinity. It's a dicey pickle, to be sure.

Thanks for the response, I kinda stuck my neck out there!

First...thanks for sticking your neck out!

Second, I've been where you are (metaphorically). Several years ago, I started training in muay thai. It was a coed class and that was fine. But, when it came time to spar, things got dicey. The very first person I sparred was an insanely fit and skilled woman. And at first, I immediately had all the psychological male baggage accompany into the ring. "On one hand, hitting a woman is just not done. On the other, I don't want to be beaten by a girl. My opponent, however, had no such internal conflicts and she continued to lob jabs, straights and kicks at me until the end of the round.

I finally had to make that mental shift and take the gender out of it. I stopped seeing her as "a woman" and instead saw her as "my opponent". She was very skilled and had been boxing since she was a teenager. She cleaned my clock. Gave me a bloody nose, too. The next day when my friends saw me all bruised and battered, I got the usual male chiding; "You were beat by up a girl!" yada yada yada. It bugged me for about a minute until I realized that I was NOT beat by "a woman". I was beat by a very skilled fighter. Since I was a newbie at the time, there was no shame in that. And if any one gave me shit about it, I invited them to come and spar with her (or me, for that matter) and see if they fared any better.

No one took me up on my offer and the teasing stopped almost immediately.

After awhile, she and I actually enjoyed sparring with each other. I learned a lot from her and she like the fact I was left handed (which forced her to change up her game). As I improved, I was able to hold my own against her and even win several bouts. And it meant a lot to me because she was a benchmark of where my skill was to where it had become.

But you're right. It's a tough mental shift to make. And there are no "Men Only" classes for those who have a hard time making it. It's that old double standard. Unfortunately, though, that impetus to change our thinking is on us menfolk.

 

[BarkBarker]

Some of the issues you brought up can explain it: we get picked out if we don't comply with a certain ideal male like it or not, an aspect of that is not really ever showing weakness. It's used as a counter argument because it probably seems like a better space to have it come up, better part of a debate/argument than the potential of a white cis male complaining about his issues like it's a "who is worse off" contest....seriously upsetting when I say it out loud but any attempt to change it will take time.

 

[Lightknight]

Because when we get in a group and try to discuss our rights the group is rapidly demonized as some sort of bigot organization bent on oppressing women. The term "MRA" is used as an insult despite being a generic designation referring to anyone supporting the rights of men.

If anytime a person opens their mouth others decide to shout "KKK" "Bigot" or whatever just to silence them, they'll just stop opening their mouths.

So one inequality we often forget to mention is one you're bringing up here. Men do not have equal access to engage in open social discourse regarding inequalities they face. Instead it is deemed as appropriate to shut them down, shout out their discussion panels and take any other actions to make sure their voice is not heard.