Male problems only ever come up as a counter-argument

[OldNewNewOld]

There is a group called MRA. People don't take it serious. People call it sexist. People call it misogynystic. People make fun of it.
It fights for man's rights. It tries to point out the problems.

I think it's pretty clear. With 3rd wave feminists putting the blame of pretty much anything of white males, any attempt of fighting for men's rights will be a fast way of getting yourself labeled as worse than a genocidal maniac.

 

[Josh123914]

Yes I said the "P" word.

Well I've just got one thing to say to you.

I completely agree.

Men aren't really encouraged to discuss their own issues like rape statistics and homelessness. It should come as no surprise when people discuss women and their glass ceiling, men who feel hard done by want to bring up a woman's glass floor as well.

 

[Dizchu]

In fact, "Feminism" often stands squarely in the way of equality for men.

This is an interesting observation. While the stereotypical "MRA" only really brings up legitimate male issues as a counter-argument, I find that many feminists have the exact same attitude. When someone accuses feminism of "ignoring male issues", the common response is a reluctant acknowledgement of male issues before returning to the same aggressive shouting they were doing before. The most frustrating thing to me is that most discussions about the problems that men face ultimately end up being about women. "MRA"s make it about "feminism trying to repress masculinity", and feminists make it about "if we address the problems women face, male problems will disappear as a result".

For once I'd like a discussion about these things without mentioning women. Because let's face it, most of the problems men face are caused by other men.

 

[runic knight]

Disagree there, rights aren't zero sum game. Now, plenty of people are invested in not having other's problems talked about, but that's not usually because it helps them gets theirs solved.

Not rights, resources. Namely funding and time that can be put towards addressing and solving problems. It takes effort and funding to fix something that is broken, from a toaster to a social issue, and there is always a limit to how much of both there is out there.

rights aren't zero sum, you are correct, but funding for shelters, legal support, legislation, councilors, the time it takes to examine and assess issues... all of that is limited, and is where the sense of competition can stem from. Those arguing issues as gendered only when they are not only actively inflame that feeling. See the mention above of the Canadian men's domestic abuse shelter being forced to close due to lost funding. I am willing to bet that some of those feminists opposed to the shelter were as invested in shutting it down simply because they thought the funding would be better suited toward their own goals.

Because society views the issue very differently for men and women, though, requiring different solutions. Male prison rape, for example, is viewed very differently from the rape of women in society in general.

Having said that, there's no reason why attempts to deal with all aspects of the issue can't be made simultaneously, they'd just require different solutions.

I would have to think that rape in prisons in general would need to be treated differently than rape that occurs within society itself. Rape of men and women in prison being a failure of those institutions themselves to maintain and control the inmate they are obligated to keep healthy and rehabilitate, I can see why addressing that issue would differ than the rape of men and women within society itself where there is considerable less control of individuals and there isn't a legal consequence when the society fails them.

My point was that a problem such as "rape within society" or "domestic abuse" or whatever else doesn't require a gendered solution despite it having a greater risk toward one gender over another. You comparison between prison rape and society rape seems to be just using the most common risk for either gender but solutions to either sort can probably be applied more holistically and without the need to dwell on them as gendered issue for the most part. And outside of issues based on physical sexual dimorphism such as testicular or ovarian cancer awareness and such, issues in general shouldn't default toward who is more at risk of them as the gender's problem.

 

[Something Amyss]

There is a group called MRA.

And self-declared MRAs are the ones being talked about in this thread and tend to be the ones who will use men's issues as a fillibuster or counter-claim, but nothing otherwise.

This goes right into your second sentence, addressing why they're not taken seriously. Nobody believes the MRM as a whole is out to lift me up rather than keep women down, based on mountains of experience.

 

[1981]

No, there is a bias against the way men are "supposed" to be.

I don't for a minute believe that there's "one, and only one, [socially] acceptable" version of masculinity. I mean, if you were to try describing this male paradigm, where would you begin? Because I'm confident that for every criterion you suggest, I can come up with a counter-example.

There is still some bias, but things are changing. My nephew liked to play with dolls. It wasn't his father but my father who showered him with "boys" things like toy cars lest he turn out "like that". Is it delusional to hope that these archaic ideas will die with that generation? When someone I know cried over the death of his girlfriend, his father said "Crybaby! Men don't do that." Maybe he knows better than to tell his own children that?

I'm sorry, women create the idea of masculinity? Women don't tell me I'm a pussy if I cry. Women don't call me a ****** if I'm a virgin. Women don't encourage me to be stoic in everyday life Men do.

Mm-hmm.

There's nothing collective or wise about your personal story, it's just yours. I know that feels incredibly important, but all of the other seven billion people have the same conceit. If you want to actually collect wisdom though, please do, but don't confuse that with your anecdote.

Why make this personal when you clearly don't know what we're talking about? You don't know how many people I've talked to that have had the same experiences. BTW, that's not what collective means. It's the ability to learn from other people's successes and mistakes. Sorta. I guess.

 

[Zen Bard]

So, are we going to talk about some male issues now as a discussion topic?

What the hell, I'll start... at least I think it's a male issue, though maybe not super-far reaching.

I want to take a Brazilian Ju Jitsu class offered locally- I know the instructor and he seems quite proficient. I've wanted to learn a more physical martial art for a while now, as Iaido is all well and good, but might not be the most practical in terms of fitness or self-defense.

The thing is, is that I flat-out refuse to grapple a woman. I just won't do it, and once more, it's not because I think I'm going to hurt her. I don't want to lose in a physical altercation to a woman, even if it's not technically a fight but a series of rules and forms that we all are learning. Simple as that- as a man, I feel it would emasculate me, and make me quite furious, yet appear pathetic and weak to all who watched it happen. This is a part of masculinity that I can sense is debilitating, but I simply cannot seem to get past it- in my mind, ideally, men should be stronger and more combat-ready. I'm not, mind you, but I wish to be, and I'm afraid that getting beaten by a woman while attempting to reach my goal would feel disgraceful.

I've explained this to the instructor, and he has suggested private classes to avoid rolling with female practitioners, as there is no all-male class- though there is an all-female class. I'm not bitter about that, by the way- I didn't want to come off that way, especially in light of my hang up. I get that some women might not want to grapple with men and would want a separate class, and that those reasons aren't the same as my wanting to be in an all-male class.

There, the genie is out of the bottle, I guess. Just a little slice of life.

I can understand where you're coming from, but I wonder if you actually got into a class with those women if your view might change? It won't be a woman you're fighting after all, it'll be someone with a name, someone you know. Ideally it'll be someone you respect for their talent and strength. There's no shame in losing to someone in martial arts, it's a learning experience. I bet that if you actually got into that fight, and lost, your reaction would surprise you. You'd want to win, but you'd have the respect for your opponent that comes from a fight, you know what I mean?

Some things, you have to dive into headfirst.

I will certainly not say it's out of the question, that's for sure. And yes, I'd like to think that I gave it my best and lost to a better opponent, I'd realize that and learn from it, and move on, especially the earlier matches where it's all about learning, really. But it's a game of perception, and I'm having a lot of difficulty accepting this point of view. Losing feels bad to some extent no matter who you are against, and not appearing weak in front of others is a core element of masculinity. It's a dicey pickle, to be sure.

Thanks for the response, I kinda stuck my neck out there!

First...thanks for sticking your neck out!

Second, I've been where you are (metaphorically). Several years ago, I started training in muay thai. It was a coed class and that was fine. But, when it came time to spar, things got dicey. The very first person I sparred was an insanely fit and skilled woman. And at first, I immediately had all the psychological male baggage accompany into the ring. "On one hand, hitting a woman is just not done. On the other, I don't want to be beaten by a girl. My opponent, however, had no such internal conflicts and she continued to lob jabs, straights and kicks at me until the end of the round.

I finally had to make that mental shift and take the gender out of it. I stopped seeing her as "a woman" and instead saw her as "my opponent". She was very skilled and had been boxing since she was a teenager. She cleaned my clock. Gave me a bloody nose, too. The next day when my friends saw me all bruised and battered, I got the usual male chiding; "You were beat by up a girl!" yada yada yada. It bugged me for about a minute until I realized that I was NOT beat by "a woman". I was beat by a very skilled fighter. Since I was a newbie at the time, there was no shame in that. And if any one gave me shit about it, I invited them to come and spar with her (or me, for that matter) and see if they fared any better.

No one took me up on my offer and the teasing stopped almost immediately.

After awhile, she and I actually enjoyed sparring with each other. I learned a lot from her and she like the fact I was left handed (which forced her to change up her game). As I improved, I was able to hold my own against her and even win several bouts. And it meant a lot to me because she was a benchmark of where my skill was to where it had become.

But you're right. It's a tough mental shift to make. And there are no "Men Only" classes for those who have a hard time making it. It's that old double standard. Unfortunately, though, that impetus to change our thinking is on us menfolk.

 

[BarkBarker]

Some of the issues you brought up can explain it: we get picked out if we don't comply with a certain ideal male like it or not, an aspect of that is not really ever showing weakness. It's used as a counter argument because it probably seems like a better space to have it come up, better part of a debate/argument than the potential of a white cis male complaining about his issues like it's a "who is worse off" contest....seriously upsetting when I say it out loud but any attempt to change it will take time.

 

[Lightknight]

Because when we get in a group and try to discuss our rights the group is rapidly demonized as some sort of bigot organization bent on oppressing women. The term "MRA" is used as an insult despite being a generic designation referring to anyone supporting the rights of men.

If anytime a person opens their mouth others decide to shout "KKK" "Bigot" or whatever just to silence them, they'll just stop opening their mouths.

So one inequality we often forget to mention is one you're bringing up here. Men do not have equal access to engage in open social discourse regarding inequalities they face. Instead it is deemed as appropriate to shut them down, shout out their discussion panels and take any other actions to make sure their voice is not heard.

 

[Secondhand Revenant]

Some of the issues you brought up can explain it: we get picked out if we don't comply with a certain ideal male like it or not, an aspect of that is not really ever showing weakness. It's used as a counter argument because it probably seems like a better space to have it come up, better part of a debate/argument than the potential of a white cis male complaining about his issues like it's a "who is worse off" contest....seriously upsetting when I say it out loud but any attempt to change it will take time.

It looks more like a 'who is worse off' contest when people bring it up in response though.

 

[Metalix Knightmare]

the very point you call it "toxic" shows how biased and degrading the opinion about men is.

No, there is a bias against the way men are "supposed" to be.

EDIT: Not least because the idea that there is one, and only one, acceptable way for men to be is harmful.

So, out of curiosity, is there such a thing as Toxic Femininity?

 

[BarkBarker]

Some of the issues you brought up can explain it: we get picked out if we don't comply with a certain ideal male like it or not, an aspect of that is not really ever showing weakness. It's used as a counter argument because it probably seems like a better space to have it come up, better part of a debate/argument than the potential of a white cis male complaining about his issues like it's a "who is worse off" contest....seriously upsetting when I say it out loud but any attempt to change it will take time.

It looks more like a 'who is worse off' contest when people bring it up in response though.

Some people are in it for the contest, some just don't want it to be a gendered issue. Domestic abuse occurs both ways, tis so easy for many to forget it clearly bears repeating, among other things. When someone brings up they do this because this or this is bad we chime in to say it happens to us too. Like I said some are here to win a "bragging" match, some want their story to be heard in a situation where its being brought up as something worth changing or whatever.

 

[Rahkshi500]

So, out of curiosity, is there such a thing as Toxic Femininity?

There is, yes, and it's something that feminism have been fighting against for decades.

 

[Metalix Knightmare]

So, out of curiosity, is there such a thing as Toxic Femininity?

There is, yes, and it's something that feminism have been fighting against for decades.

Care to provide me an example? The only thing I can think of is the foot binding thing in China.

 

[the December King]

But you're right. It's a tough mental shift to make. And there are no "Men Only" classes for those who have a hard time making it. It's that old double standard. Unfortunately, though, that impetus to change our thinking is on us menfolk.

But why is the impetus on us to change how we think in this instance- why not have actual, male-only venues? And, why were you paired with an expert, if you were a beginner- never mind the genders? This often seems like it's just set up to force some sort of humility narrative on men, and empower the women, and aside from possibly, potentially getting better and able to hold your own against your better opponent, which you apparently did do, and assuming that that opponent isn't also improving as well or, worse, holds back at some points to make you feel better, then you do become a bit of a joke, right?

See, this is how my mind works when presented with a story like this, especially seeing as how Muai Thai is even more like an actual full-on fight than BJJ (EDIT: Or seems to be more like an actual fight- I know nothing of the rules, this is just me spouting here, and I am aware of this.)

I don't know if this is going to work for me... I don't want to just be some feel-good story for women about kicking men's asses. I want to be a feel good story for me, and that kind of humiliation might be too much for me to overcome.

EDIT: Ohmygod, how selfish of me- thank you for sharing your story, Zen Bard. I should have said that from the start. And I am in no way implying that you are weakened by your encounter- I hope I didn't offend you with my rambling.

 

[Vuxul]

Looking over this thread it seems people have fallen into the opposite trap that was explained in the OP.
We have people talking about real men's issues and feminists speaking about how they are not as important as a counter argument, somewhat like what the OP speaks of.
Men are under a societal pressure to act in a certain way, so are women. Most can agree to this, whether it gives a person a better life or not, there are pressures. This seems much more related to removing those pressures.
If we look at the OP and why male issues aren't really discussed (which they are tbf in the nordics at least), then it because we have too much antagonism. We are too busy trying to make our own problems important instead of understanding others can face their own issues. That doesn't make their issues lesser, neither it makes your issues lesser.
However, instead of making some kind of united stance against ancient and archaic gender roles we fight each other when we would be much better served fighting against the common enemy.
That would be why I would call myself a feminist. Why males usually don't talk about their problems, then that is the ancient role given to them, and we should fight it ferociously. However, the more equality given to women gives more equality to men

 

[Secondhand Revenant]

the very point you call it "toxic" shows how biased and degrading the opinion about men is.

No, there is a bias against the way men are "supposed" to be.

EDIT: Not least because the idea that there is one, and only one, acceptable way for men to be is harmful.

So, out of curiosity, is there such a thing as Toxic Femininity?

I don't believe anyone has coined that term. It's not like they grow out in the wild. What exactly would it entail?

 

[Secondhand Revenant]

But you're right. It's a tough mental shift to make. And there are no "Men Only" classes for those who have a hard time making it. It's that old double standard. Unfortunately, though, that impetus to change our thinking is on us menfolk.

But why is the impetus on us to change how we think in this instance- why not have actual, male-only venues?

Well I imagine because you'd usually be talking to someone who thinks the thought process in question is not a reasonable way to think. And you don't cater to unreasonable ideas, you tell people to stop thinking that way. If someone thinks the floor is lava you don't develop a way to avoid the floor, you expect them to get over that idea.

 

[Rahkshi500]

So, out of curiosity, is there such a thing as Toxic Femininity?

There is, yes, and it's something that feminism have been fighting against for decades.

Care to provide me an example? The only thing I can think of is the foot binding thing in China.

There is, yes. It's the over reliance on another, almost always a man, to provide and care for you. The idea to remain quiet and subservient to another. The idea that you have to be the nurturing caregiver of others, particularly children. The idea that you have to be "pure" and "chaste" with regarding your own desires, particular sexuality, until someone comes along to "claim" you as theirs as if they own you. There's more that I can list, but basically it's a lot of the things that have been associated with typical, regressive gender roles that women have been place into for decades, and what feminism has been fighting against for decades.

 

[Metalix Knightmare]

the very point you call it "toxic" shows how biased and degrading the opinion about men is.

No, there is a bias against the way men are "supposed" to be.

EDIT: Not least because the idea that there is one, and only one, acceptable way for men to be is harmful.

So, out of curiosity, is there such a thing as Toxic Femininity?

I don't believe anyone has coined that term. It's not like they grow out in the wild. What exactly would it entail?

I would assume a feminine version of whatever Toxic Masculinity is. I'm afraid I don't know much about the term, my first and only exposure to it was when Anita Sarkeesian basically linked it to a shooting awhile ago.