Male problems only ever come up as a counter-argument

[Secondhand Revenant]

Some of the issues you brought up can explain it: we get picked out if we don't comply with a certain ideal male like it or not, an aspect of that is not really ever showing weakness. It's used as a counter argument because it probably seems like a better space to have it come up, better part of a debate/argument than the potential of a white cis male complaining about his issues like it's a "who is worse off" contest....seriously upsetting when I say it out loud but any attempt to change it will take time.

It looks more like a 'who is worse off' contest when people bring it up in response though.

 

[Metalix Knightmare]

the very point you call it "toxic" shows how biased and degrading the opinion about men is.

No, there is a bias against the way men are "supposed" to be.

EDIT: Not least because the idea that there is one, and only one, acceptable way for men to be is harmful.

So, out of curiosity, is there such a thing as Toxic Femininity?

 

[BarkBarker]

Some of the issues you brought up can explain it: we get picked out if we don't comply with a certain ideal male like it or not, an aspect of that is not really ever showing weakness. It's used as a counter argument because it probably seems like a better space to have it come up, better part of a debate/argument than the potential of a white cis male complaining about his issues like it's a "who is worse off" contest....seriously upsetting when I say it out loud but any attempt to change it will take time.

It looks more like a 'who is worse off' contest when people bring it up in response though.

Some people are in it for the contest, some just don't want it to be a gendered issue. Domestic abuse occurs both ways, tis so easy for many to forget it clearly bears repeating, among other things. When someone brings up they do this because this or this is bad we chime in to say it happens to us too. Like I said some are here to win a "bragging" match, some want their story to be heard in a situation where its being brought up as something worth changing or whatever.

 

[Rahkshi500]

So, out of curiosity, is there such a thing as Toxic Femininity?

There is, yes, and it's something that feminism have been fighting against for decades.

 

[Metalix Knightmare]

So, out of curiosity, is there such a thing as Toxic Femininity?

There is, yes, and it's something that feminism have been fighting against for decades.

Care to provide me an example? The only thing I can think of is the foot binding thing in China.

 

[the December King]

But you're right. It's a tough mental shift to make. And there are no "Men Only" classes for those who have a hard time making it. It's that old double standard. Unfortunately, though, that impetus to change our thinking is on us menfolk.

But why is the impetus on us to change how we think in this instance- why not have actual, male-only venues? And, why were you paired with an expert, if you were a beginner- never mind the genders? This often seems like it's just set up to force some sort of humility narrative on men, and empower the women, and aside from possibly, potentially getting better and able to hold your own against your better opponent, which you apparently did do, and assuming that that opponent isn't also improving as well or, worse, holds back at some points to make you feel better, then you do become a bit of a joke, right?

See, this is how my mind works when presented with a story like this, especially seeing as how Muai Thai is even more like an actual full-on fight than BJJ (EDIT: Or seems to be more like an actual fight- I know nothing of the rules, this is just me spouting here, and I am aware of this.)

I don't know if this is going to work for me... I don't want to just be some feel-good story for women about kicking men's asses. I want to be a feel good story for me, and that kind of humiliation might be too much for me to overcome.

EDIT: Ohmygod, how selfish of me- thank you for sharing your story, Zen Bard. I should have said that from the start. And I am in no way implying that you are weakened by your encounter- I hope I didn't offend you with my rambling.

 

[Vuxul]

Looking over this thread it seems people have fallen into the opposite trap that was explained in the OP.
We have people talking about real men's issues and feminists speaking about how they are not as important as a counter argument, somewhat like what the OP speaks of.
Men are under a societal pressure to act in a certain way, so are women. Most can agree to this, whether it gives a person a better life or not, there are pressures. This seems much more related to removing those pressures.
If we look at the OP and why male issues aren't really discussed (which they are tbf in the nordics at least), then it because we have too much antagonism. We are too busy trying to make our own problems important instead of understanding others can face their own issues. That doesn't make their issues lesser, neither it makes your issues lesser.
However, instead of making some kind of united stance against ancient and archaic gender roles we fight each other when we would be much better served fighting against the common enemy.
That would be why I would call myself a feminist. Why males usually don't talk about their problems, then that is the ancient role given to them, and we should fight it ferociously. However, the more equality given to women gives more equality to men

 

[Secondhand Revenant]

the very point you call it "toxic" shows how biased and degrading the opinion about men is.

No, there is a bias against the way men are "supposed" to be.

EDIT: Not least because the idea that there is one, and only one, acceptable way for men to be is harmful.

So, out of curiosity, is there such a thing as Toxic Femininity?

I don't believe anyone has coined that term. It's not like they grow out in the wild. What exactly would it entail?

 

[Secondhand Revenant]

But you're right. It's a tough mental shift to make. And there are no "Men Only" classes for those who have a hard time making it. It's that old double standard. Unfortunately, though, that impetus to change our thinking is on us menfolk.

But why is the impetus on us to change how we think in this instance- why not have actual, male-only venues?

Well I imagine because you'd usually be talking to someone who thinks the thought process in question is not a reasonable way to think. And you don't cater to unreasonable ideas, you tell people to stop thinking that way. If someone thinks the floor is lava you don't develop a way to avoid the floor, you expect them to get over that idea.

 

[Rahkshi500]

So, out of curiosity, is there such a thing as Toxic Femininity?

There is, yes, and it's something that feminism have been fighting against for decades.

Care to provide me an example? The only thing I can think of is the foot binding thing in China.

There is, yes. It's the over reliance on another, almost always a man, to provide and care for you. The idea to remain quiet and subservient to another. The idea that you have to be the nurturing caregiver of others, particularly children. The idea that you have to be "pure" and "chaste" with regarding your own desires, particular sexuality, until someone comes along to "claim" you as theirs as if they own you. There's more that I can list, but basically it's a lot of the things that have been associated with typical, regressive gender roles that women have been place into for decades, and what feminism has been fighting against for decades.

 

[Metalix Knightmare]

the very point you call it "toxic" shows how biased and degrading the opinion about men is.

No, there is a bias against the way men are "supposed" to be.

EDIT: Not least because the idea that there is one, and only one, acceptable way for men to be is harmful.

So, out of curiosity, is there such a thing as Toxic Femininity?

I don't believe anyone has coined that term. It's not like they grow out in the wild. What exactly would it entail?

I would assume a feminine version of whatever Toxic Masculinity is. I'm afraid I don't know much about the term, my first and only exposure to it was when Anita Sarkeesian basically linked it to a shooting awhile ago.

 

[Secondhand Revenant]

the very point you call it "toxic" shows how biased and degrading the opinion about men is.

No, there is a bias against the way men are "supposed" to be.

EDIT: Not least because the idea that there is one, and only one, acceptable way for men to be is harmful.

So, out of curiosity, is there such a thing as Toxic Femininity?

I don't believe anyone has coined that term. It's not like they grow out in the wild. What exactly would it entail?

I would assume a feminine version of whatever Toxic Masculinity is. I'm afraid I don't know much about the term, my first and only exposure to it was when Anita Sarkeesian basically linked it to a shooting awhile ago.

Well I'm not sure what the defining bit of toxic masculinity is.

If it's harm towards others I'm not sure you'd find an equivalent since I don't think women are similarly pressured towards violence socially.

If it's just that the gender role aspect is harmful then I'd think it would be things such as body image stuff, amongst other things. Body image stuff being the first thing that comes to mind, not trying to be comprehensive here. Not female so not sure what comes up as much for them. Edit: pretty much the stuff rahkshi said for this

 

[Animyr]

So, out of curiosity, is there such a thing as Toxic Femininity?

There is, yes, and it's something that feminism have been fighting against for decades.

Care to provide me an example? The only thing I can think of is the foot binding thing in China.

Offhand, I'd say the women who support a return to gender inequality--women are supposed to be subservient to men, there is no greater honor a woman can achieve then loyally serve a man, they're incapable of being equal or better anyway, and futile attempts to assert themselves as such are doomed to disaster.

In my experience, this sentiment is usually accompanied by "I'm not like those entitled bitches!" or something of that nature, as well as imploring other women to accept the danger their natural incompetence poses.

 

[Thaluikhain]

The term "MRA" is used as an insult despite being a generic designation referring to anyone supporting the rights of men.

It's not a generic term, it refers to someone that has self-identified as a member of the Men's Rights Movement. You have other similar groups that aren't made up of MRAs, because they identify differently.

(Not to mention feminists that support the rights of men without being MRAs)

I would assume a feminine version of whatever Toxic Masculinity is. I'm afraid I don't know much about the term, my first and only exposure to it was when Anita Sarkeesian basically linked it to a shooting awhile ago.

I think she was the one that coined that term. People have been talking about the harms caused by rigid gender roles, arbitrary ways people are forced to be feminine or masculine, but the phrase was popularised because if you twist what she said, you can sorta make it look like feminists hate men or whatever.

 

[the December King]

But you're right. It's a tough mental shift to make. And there are no "Men Only" classes for those who have a hard time making it. It's that old double standard. Unfortunately, though, that impetus to change our thinking is on us menfolk.

But why is the impetus on us to change how we think in this instance- why not have actual, male-only venues? And, why were you paired with an expert, if you were a beginner- never mind the genders? This often seems like it's just set up to force some sort of humility narrative on men, and empower the women, and aside from possibly, potentially getting better and able to hold your own against your better opponent, which you apparently did do, and assuming that that opponent isn't also improving as well or, worse, holds back at some points to make you feel better, then you do become a bit of a joke, right?

See, this is how my mind works when presented with a story like this, especially seeing as how Muai Thai is even more like an actual full-on fight than BJJ (EDIT: Or seems to be more like an actual fight- I know nothing of the rules, this is just me spouting here, and I am aware of this.)

I don't know if this is going to work for me... I don't want to just be some feel-good story for women about kicking men's asses. I want to be a feel good story for me, and that kind of humiliation might be too much for me to overcome.

If you look at the world of female-only venues, they're historically begun and maintained by females. I think the answer to your question is that as guys, we haven't done the same thing. Maybe it's because there aren't enough who want to, maybe cultural or social pressures, or maybe women need to make shelters and classes and we as guys mostly just have the rest of society. I mean, if you're a man who wants to just go it alone with men, most countries and religions have had priesthoods, monks, and other orders. You could still run your life and have political power that way, unlike a nun or their equivalents who were basically tools.

In that light, it's easy to see why we as guys tend less to try and carve out micro-societies, and just outright change the whole society. Until recently, that wasn't an option for anyone except men in most places, so women had to act separately and on smaller scales. If we want to catch up, then we need to do the same things they did, and work on our own.

That is a really good point, if men have historically seen all of society as 'ours', then why would seperate groups be needed? Well at least until now, I guess.

Are men allowed to start men-only venues?

 

[the December King]

But you're right. It's a tough mental shift to make. And there are no "Men Only" classes for those who have a hard time making it. It's that old double standard. Unfortunately, though, that impetus to change our thinking is on us menfolk.

But why is the impetus on us to change how we think in this instance- why not have actual, male-only venues?

Well I imagine because you'd usually be talking to someone who thinks the thought process in question is not a reasonable way to think. And you don't cater to unreasonable ideas, you tell people to stop thinking that way. If someone thinks the floor is lava you don't develop a way to avoid the floor, you expect them to get over that idea.

Or, I suppose, the impetus is on me to look into and possibly be the change I want- if I want a male-only venue, I should see if there are others interested in such an idea. My way of thinking might not actually be an outlier after all.

 

[Ariseishirou]

Because most of the time, I find, the people bringing those issues up don't actually give a shit about them (or worse, actually _support_ them, as a way of "toughening men up" or "just how men are," often with the insinuation that this is just some aspect, albeit unfortunate, of what makes them superior to - *cough* I mean "different from" - women).

Just once, when I've asked a male commenter what he'd done to help fight against those issues men face when he brought them out as what I'd assumed was the usually dog-and-pony-show of "men have problems too, so women aren't allowed to complain about theirs, feminist hag!" did the guy actually say he did and have evidence to show for it. He'd fought to get a battered women's shelter in his area to accept abused men, and won, and now volunteered there. I checked it out and everything.

Once. Ever. In literally hundreds of discussions. And by the way, after becoming massively disillisioned with the inertia in his own camp, and after working with the women at the shelter, he now identifies not as an MRA, but a male feminist.

So... yeah.

 

[Secondhand Revenant]

But you're right. It's a tough mental shift to make. And there are no "Men Only" classes for those who have a hard time making it. It's that old double standard. Unfortunately, though, that impetus to change our thinking is on us menfolk.

But why is the impetus on us to change how we think in this instance- why not have actual, male-only venues?

Well I imagine because you'd usually be talking to someone who thinks the thought process in question is not a reasonable way to think. And you don't cater to unreasonable ideas, you tell people to stop thinking that way. If someone thinks the floor is lava you don't develop a way to avoid the floor, you expect them to get over that idea.

Or, I suppose, the impetus is on me to look into and possibly be the change I want- if I want a male-only venue, I should see if there are others interested in such an idea. My way of thinking might not actually be an outlier after all.

I'm not sure why you'd want to preserve that way of thinking. In all honesty it looks sexist.

 

[the December King]

But you're right. It's a tough mental shift to make. And there are no "Men Only" classes for those who have a hard time making it. It's that old double standard. Unfortunately, though, that impetus to change our thinking is on us menfolk.

But why is the impetus on us to change how we think in this instance- why not have actual, male-only venues?

Well I imagine because you'd usually be talking to someone who thinks the thought process in question is not a reasonable way to think. And you don't cater to unreasonable ideas, you tell people to stop thinking that way. If someone thinks the floor is lava you don't develop a way to avoid the floor, you expect them to get over that idea.

Or, I suppose, the impetus is on me to look into and possibly be the change I want- if I want a male-only venue, I should see if there are others interested in such an idea. My way of thinking might not actually be an outlier after all.

I'm not sure why you'd want to preserve that way of thinking. In all honesty it looks sexist.

That I don't want to get beaten up by women, that looks sexist to you? And why can't men have their own spaces, if women have their own spaces?

 

[Secondhand Revenant]

But you're right. It's a tough mental shift to make. And there are no "Men Only" classes for those who have a hard time making it. It's that old double standard. Unfortunately, though, that impetus to change our thinking is on us menfolk.

But why is the impetus on us to change how we think in this instance- why not have actual, male-only venues?

Well I imagine because you'd usually be talking to someone who thinks the thought process in question is not a reasonable way to think. And you don't cater to unreasonable ideas, you tell people to stop thinking that way. If someone thinks the floor is lava you don't develop a way to avoid the floor, you expect them to get over that idea.

Or, I suppose, the impetus is on me to look into and possibly be the change I want- if I want a male-only venue, I should see if there are others interested in such an idea. My way of thinking might not actually be an outlier after all.

I'm not sure why you'd want to preserve that way of thinking. In all honesty it looks sexist.

That I don't want to get beaten up by women, that looks sexist to you?

Pfft, do you really think trying to frame it so dishonestly will convince anyone? I was trying not to be dismissive but it's hard when you pull nonsense like that

It's sexist that you don't mind 'losing' to men but you do when it's women. So yeah when you don't try to pretend the issue is getting 'beaten up' and acknowledge your issue is the gender of who is doing it.

And why can't men have their own spaces, if women have their own spaces?

I'm criticizing the given reason for it, not the idea of there ever possibly being a space for men.