Male problems only ever come up as a counter-argument

[Mouri Kogoro]

I also notice that you added like six qualifiers in there. You could, maybe, sometimes, usually, possibly be right about some women occasionally.

Also, I like how you imply that men inherently don't care about raising children.

Of course there are qualifiers. Nothing it going to apply 100% across the board. But the fact is a significant number of women will prefer to stay home if finances permit. If a goal of feminism is gender parity in this regard it will never happen as long as there is free will and free choice. At the same time if someone stays home with the kids they probably won't be able advance as far in their career as if they didn't. One only has so many hours in one's life. It's a choice they make. You will never convince women not to have kids and not to stay home to raise them (or take more flexible employment) and therefore there will always be an absolute wage gap. Women make different life choices than men not because of patriarchy but because of biology, and they tend to be happier with those choices.

The important thing is to not put any unnecessary obstacles towards success no matter what choice they make. That has largely been achieved in the 1st world western countries.

 

[1981]

[...] Right or wrong, that's very debatable, but the point is, men do have problems but for the most part, we don't talk about them because what the hell does whining and complaining accomplish? We want solutions, not hand-wringing.

The only argument I can come up with is that it cleanses the gene pool of those who are unable to deal with their problems on their own. But it's a bit nihilistic for my taste. And if you don't consider darwinism from a purely primitive survival aspect, it means we also lose people who would've been able to contribute to society.

Another consequence of not talking about (i.e. refusing to face and deal with) problems is that you become oblivious to the problems others are facing. You either think that they're comparable to your own or that you're alone with your problems.

A 40 year old virgin maybe, but then how would anyone know unless we're told? It all comes back to someone advertising their sexual history and then complaining about the reception it gets.

If I'm putting you on the spot, I apologize. I just have a compulsive need to figure people out by observing them. Until now I haven't had the slightest idea where you were coming from. So if a gay person can pass as straight, the public opinion about gays does not concern them? That's taking the idea that an individual is separate from their environment to the extreme.

 

[DonTsetsi]

The same reason that the lack of shelters for homeless or battered men is brought up by people who have never done anything about it, like opening a shelter. The kind of people who complain online or on a college campus on any side of this debate, aren't the people who actually solve problems at that time.

Slacktivism ladies and gentlemen, it's that simple.

The one woman who tried to open shelter for battered men, who incidently also was the one who opened the first shelters for women in the us of a had her dog killed by feminists and had her family and herselfe terrorized by them so much that she had to leave her home behind and move to another location

http://imgur.com/gallery/PDcXuvy

And people wonder why no one talks about mens problems or why no one speaks up for men... because each time someone who simply wants to discuss mens problems comes along hes shut down by radical feminists and activists. Go ahead and even try to have an honest debate about men issues in the modern world in a public place.

Or have you forgotten that you cant be sexist against men?

So one person has tried this, once, and got a bad response. And no one has ever tried before or since? I guess if one person's story is the scope of your "civil rights" movement then the 60's could have boiled down to, "Woman refuses to sit in back of bus, is arrested. Everyone else freaks out and falls back into line."

Not really. There are continuing attempts to talk about male issues by different organisations. CAFE is very active in Canada, for example. They also get a lot of protests and pulled fire alarms. Here's a link to one famous case of an MRA meeting being stopped via fire alarm:
https://youtu.be/GO_X4DkwA_Q

 

[Kathinka]

The same reason that the lack of shelters for homeless or battered men is brought up by people who have never done anything about it, like opening a shelter. The kind of people who complain online or on a college campus on any side of this debate, aren't the people who actually solve problems at that time.

Slacktivism ladies and gentlemen, it's that simple.

The one woman who tried to open shelter for battered men, who incidently also was the one who opened the first shelters for women in the us of a had her dog killed by feminists and had her family and herselfe terrorized by them so much that she had to leave her home behind and move to another location

http://imgur.com/gallery/PDcXuvy

And people wonder why no one talks about mens problems or why no one speaks up for men... because each time someone who simply wants to discuss mens problems comes along hes shut down by radical feminists and activists. Go ahead and even try to have an honest debate about men issues in the modern world in a public place.

Or have you forgotten that you cant be sexist against men?

So one person has tried this, once, and got a bad response. And no one has ever tried before or since? I guess if one person's story is the scope of your "civil rights" movement then the 60's could have boiled down to, "Woman refuses to sit in back of bus, is arrested. Everyone else freaks out and falls back into line."

Not really. There are continuing attempts to talk about male issues by different organisations. CAFE is very active in Canada, for example. They also get a lot of protests and pulled fire alarms. Here's a link to one famous case of an MRA meeting being stopped via fire alarm:
https://youtu.be/GO_X4DkwA_Q

Also, wasn't there this guy in Canada who tried this, was denied funding due to pressure of feminist groups, did it anyway with his private funds, and was then driven to suicide by said groups? His name escapes me right now..Silver- something?

 

[Aesir23]

*snip*

I have to say, I've never heard of "Virgin Shaming" before this either. It sounds like bullshit too, because in my experience the only people who care about and talk about virgins and virginity, are virgins.

I would just like to say that I have heard of Virgin Shaming but it's something I've really only seen in high school and perpetrated (mostly) by other boys or by people who still haven't grown out of that high school mentality. Basically the idea that if you haven't lost your virginity by X time then you're not a "real man". It's sort of like slut shaming with women but in the opposite direction.

 

[llubtoille]

Reminds me a bit of that gaming voice actor dispute, where the hellish working conditions of game devs and QA are used as a reason to not improve the working conditions of others.
I don't think there's a simple answer, it's a (seemingly worldwide) cultural thing and that's always been a tough one to change.

 

[Trizzo]

snip

An old women grabbed your hands? The horror. Where is the context? You're at work? Did she want your attention as in "excuse me, i need your help shop assistant". Was she confused? Was she just old? Was it sexual? If the last call the police. What stopped you from doing so if you thought it was?

You can't talk to friends/peers without worrying about your masculinity? Get new friends. Wouldn't a measure of masculinity (or sexuality/self) be in not giving a fuck about who you are and what you do? Besides who is this the fault of exactly? You said you "want to avoid talking about feminism" so does this mean it's the fault of 'men' or are you implying it's the 'feminists' but you just don't want to talk about that.

Again ask yourself, who exactly corralled me into acting masculine/against myself? Was it actually just me?

Your problems aren't unique either.

"Men have to deal with a lot of problems. Violent deaths, possibly being ostracized by our peers if we don't fit into a stupid overly masculine stereotype, a massive stigma against acting feminine lest we be accused of having the gay"

"Women have to deal with a lot of problems. Violent deaths, being ostracized by our peers if we don't fit into a stupid overly feminine stereotypes, a massive stigma against acting masculine lest we be accused of having the dyke"

You are the other side of the coin and you just can't see it.

 

[Eclipse Dragon]

there is another guy out there that holds it against himself, silently hating himself. If we had more open conversations we could help them (both of them) before they make a mistake that can't be taken back...

Funny enough a very popular question dating coaches and couples therapists get from women is "how do I get my man to share his feelings with me?"

Speaking from only my personal experience[footnote]which of course means very little to the larger picture[/footnote], I've dated both sides of the coin.

Both guys were/are nice, my ex though had very low self confidence and chose to vent his feelings to me. I had no problem with this, however, because of his low self confidence, the only thing he ever focused on was the bad in himself and I became his emotional crutch.

Again, I have no problem when a man I'm dating vents his feelings to me, I want to know everything about them as a person, that includes the more vulnerable side, I want to help him be the best he can be, to feel good about himself but in this situation, it wasn't inspiring because that's all there was, I was the only one who made him happy, I felt crushed under the pressure and started to feel bad about myself and trapped.

Predictably, despite all the nice things he did for me, this relationship was toxic and I needed to end it for my own personal health. Even though we continue to be friends, he doesn't understand where I come from in this situation and from time to time he tries again, shows jealousy toward my current BF, claims all his exes "friend-zoned" him. This behavior is leading me to push him even further out of my life.

---------------------------------
Conversely, my current BF has a high degree of self confidence and at times he seems so laid back, we could be on the verge of a zombie apocalypse and he'd be "ehhh it's fine". I know that he probably feels anxiety, but he's told me himself that he tries not to think about it (though he does share with me when something majorly devastating happens). I believe though if he did decide to start telling me about his everyday frustrations, that the relationship wouldn't become what the one above was and we might grow closer for it. He has more in his life that makes him happy and secure, friends, family, a stable source of income, while the ex above does not, and uses his unfortunate situation as a means to call women "shallow" and claim they won't date him because women only date men with money, ext.

I don't know what point I was trying to make here, I guess perhaps offering an idea of how exactly a Nice Guy (TM) is born.

 

[Sexual Harassment Panda]

Because let's be honest: sex is the dividing line between friend and girlfriend in this scenario. You weren't hoping to build a life together in high school and intimacy can be a part of platonic friendship so... Yeah.

Except it's not the dividing line. Couples can be abstinate, friends can fuck(though that's understandably shaky ground).

What we're really talking about here is that young people are stupid, and this really is a young person problem for the most part. I find it baffling that the internet community seems to need a rule on this. This "Nice guy TM" thing is fucking stupid. It's really not a gender issue, it's a dumb issue. There are girls who think being nice is all that's required, and there are guys who are oblivious to what their behaviour communicates/inspires(and vice-versa). These are scenarios where the inexperience of both parties is on display. It's not evil, it's just unfortunate.

There are of course variations on this where the "oblivious" party isn't actually oblivious. That's people being people. The strong can prey on the weak.

Expecting inexperienced people to be totally self-aware in these situations is a losing battle. They don't have the tools. Trending memes that paint either gender as the villain/victim aren't going to help. It's just more inappropriate and misguided blaming and shaming, when what would actually be helpful is a dose of reality... A little education coming from an appropriate source (meaning not gender-political propaganda on the internet).

 

[Dragonlayer]

Because, as was proven in this thread within thirty minutes of the original post, nobody cares in the slightest about problems and solutions in any social justice issue online, they just want to butt heads with the eternal opposition and win arguments.

Not really. I remember see just the opposite on this sight a few times in fact. Someone made a thread about a guy having to deal with false rape claims, and every other comment was about how actual rape is more common. Someone talked about how there's no battered men's shelters every replay to that guy was about how battered women's shelters are more important.

My guess is that you're looking for that, and you know what they say? Life is like a box of chocolates you're only going to remember the taste of coconut.

Which goes with my point quite nicely. Also, for all the presumably male individuals who do complain on this site about male problems, its very rare for an actual male problem help thread to appear and when it does, it lasts for maybe two, three pages at best. Of course, that could be because everyone goes into those threads simply to say "NU UH! MY SIDE HAS IT WORSE!".

I was reading a book once that went though this one experiment that coined the term "illusion of asymmetric insight." Witch I think is a very good term for what exactly is going on here.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusion_of_asymmetric_insight

That will give you a quick overview of what I'm talking about. Basically when two groups interact they assume they know the other side better then the other side knows themselves. People don't just see the "other side" as being inferior, they need it go be inferior. Whatever people will be people, the only thing I can do is try not to get involved.

That sounds dead on for these conversations, and not just male problems but any and all social justice "discussion" on the internet (such a generous term for "Shit flinging bitching match"). Note that in every single one of these "debates", people will demand evidence to meet their impossible standards of argumentation, then when it is provided they will dismiss it out of hand because they know better - so illusion of asymmetric insight to a tee.

For the best really, I never participate myself, bar the occasional indulgent "Both of you are equally awful" comment.

 

[Dazzle Novak]

snip

We're talking about a presumed adult (he speaks about high school in the past tense) wallowing in "nice guy" nonsense. This isn't people ganging up on some awkward youth; it's explaining the situation to a grown man who apparently hasn't learned from it or developed any self-awareness since. There's a point where such obliviousness becomes attitudinal and therefore assholish.

I can pity someone for ill-luck in matters of love while also noting they've developed a toxic worldview as a defense-mechanism because of said bad luck/ unwillingness to self-evaluate. Lastly, you lose whatever sympathy points you have when you lash out. That meme is making fun of guys who post misogynistic rants online then wonder why nice chaps like them have no luck with the ladies. The meme is not shaming any and everyone who has trouble getting a date.

You're right, sex isn't some concrete dividing line, but I think it's fair to say if he was already hanging around these girls the only thing that would change by them dating would be sex or physical contact farther back on the continuum.

This is the part where I'm dismissing you, but the fact you, in an earlier post, cite MGTOW as a positive means of addressing male issue when it's at best "giving up" and more usually hysterically histrionic misogyny, I suspect our opinions on the issue may be too far apart to bridge the gap.

 

[Something Amyss]

A lot of shit is a go-to insult on the internet, and I don't think that changes what I said. The stigma of being something arises from being that thing, not from people randomly and anonymously calling you names.

Those go-to insults derive from things which are stigmatised. That's the whole point. "Virgin" only has teeth because being a virgin is bad (unless you're a girl, then it's mandatory or you're a slut/whore/whatever) according to society. "******" only has teeth because because being gay is bad (unless you're a girl, in which case it's only bad when you turn guys down instead of turn them on) according to society.

Of course, you get into the territory that calling someone a ***** or a pussy only has teeth because being a girl is deemed as bad by society. Hell, calling a dude a girl is an insult, when it should be a compliment!

...I'm kidding, folks. But it shouldn't be an inherent slam on someone. And I didn't bring that up randomly. I do find it interesting how much of the overall male insult bank comes down to men insulting other men for having traits that are in some way female. And I watch a lot of the people who complain about this "shaming" themselves participate in this.

Which, going back to the last time I commented in here, speaks to another fairly important thing: these arguments are almost always men vs men, and then somehow one of the groups blames women or feminism or SJWs for it.

Conversely, my current BF has a high degree of self confidence and at times he seems so laid back, we could be on the verge of a zombie apocalypse and he'd be "ehhh it's fine".

Okay, I am totally stealing your boyfriend.

[...]while the ex above does not, and uses his unfortunate situation as a means to call women "shallow" and claim they won't date him because women only date men with money, ext.

I don't know what point I was trying to make here, I guess perhaps offering an idea of how exactly a Nice Guy (TM) is born.

One of the things I find ultimately baffling is, in my experience, a significant chunk of self-proclaimed nice guys are outwardly hostile to women. Often worse than simply blaming their problems on women liking X (which is still not exactly a good thing), but I've known a lot of guys who will outright insult a woman for being a woman (or being female while doing something else that would be innocuous) or outright harass women and then turn around and wonder why women don't like them.

And I kiiiiiiiinda want to know the thought process here, because I can't believe they're thinking "I'm an abusive, misogynistic dick who hassles women. Surely they're going to drop their panties at that!"

...right?

...please, someone tell me that's not the thought process....>.<

 

[Sexual Harassment Panda]

We're talking about a presumed adult (he speaks about high school in the past tense) wallowing in "nice guy" nonsense. This isn't people ganging up on some awkward youth; it's explaining the situation to a grown man who apparently hasn't learned from it or developed any self-awareness since. There's a point where such obliviousness becomes attitudinal and therefore assholish.

Response was general. I don't care about his specifics, and I wasn't really addressing only you. A little selfish, but you were a jumping point for me giving my thoughts on the matter.

I can pity someone for ill-luck in matters of love while also noting they've developed a toxic worldview as a defense-mechanism because of said bad luck/ unwillingness to self-evaluate. Lastly, you lose whatever sympathy points you have when you lash out. That meme is making fun of guys who post misogynistic rants online then wonder why nice chaps like them have no luck with the ladies. The meme is not shaming any and everyone who has trouble getting a date.

Nothing on the internet really gets applied fairly. You can say the origins were something else, but I witnessed how it was applied in the appropriately themed threads on this forum, and... In my view it was treated like a rule.

People run with things, including scissors.

You're right, sex isn't some concrete dividing line, but I think it's fair to say if he was already hanging around these girls the only thing that would change by them dating would be sex or physical contact farther back on the continuum.

See, I think this is wrong. I think the level of intimacy is different between a couple and a pair of platonic friends. If it's not, I think that's a recipe for the type of confusion we're talking about. The title that is being given to the relationship is not more important than the nature of the relationship.

This is the part where I'm dismissing you, but the fact you, in an earlier post, cite MGTOW as a positive means of addressing male issue when it's at best "giving up" and more usually hysterically histrionic misogyny, I suspect our opinions on the issue may be too far apart to bridge the gap.

I didn't offer an opinion on it, I observed that it was a thing that was happening. If I say "fans of twilight really love twilight" I'm not saying I'm a fan of twilight. This is easy. Maybe I should dismiss you?

I'm happy to admit that I don't know what is best for others at all times. Those men may be helped, they may not be helped. Honestly, it's probably working on a case by case basis.

 

[Something Amyss]

Found it:

It's a pretty apt description for most peoples arguments. Honestly this image comes into relevancy more often than you'd think.

Have some internets!

It's a shame, though, in all seriousness. Because it shouldn't be an X v Y thing. Unfortunately, "man problems" seem to largely be brought up as a counter.

 

[Dazzle Novak]

snip

Fair enough in using me as a "jumping point", but you certainly understand how I could have gotten the wrong idea with you directly quoting me and all.

A thing being misapplied doesn't invalidate the original intention nor validate the new use unless you can demonstrate it's common practice. Putting toothpaste on my hot dog doesn't make it a condiment nor its purpose ambiguous. Frankly, I think you're the one misinterpreting if your takeaway is that "nice guy" is applied to all lonely goofs rather than the ones who self-identify as such while spewing their dislike of the fairer sex.

I'll agree with you that something's essence precedes its label, but I'd have to ask: why is assigning the label and formalizing a relarionship so important, then?

Describing MGTOW as "a way men are addressing their issues" is about as neutral as saying, "groups of white boys with shaved heads and steel-toed boots have been gathering to speak on the issue of race". It's not indicative of anything constructivee, so why even bring it up? It's as useful as saying, "The two sides of this argument disagree on points." Thank you for your contribution, Captain Obvious.

Yes, a lot of loons online are assuming positions of authority while disseminating pick-up artistry, misanthropy of various shades, and codified antisociality to impressionable, awkward young men seeking validation and/or life advice. This is preferable how?

 

[Sexual Harassment Panda]

Fair enough in using me as a "jumping point", but you certainly understand how I could have gotten the wrong idea with you directly quoting me and all.

Ok.

A thing being misapplied doesn't invalidate the original intention nor validate the new use unless you can demonstrate it's common practice. Putting toothpaste on my hot dog doesn't make it a condiment nor its purpose ambiguous. Frankly, I think you're the one misinterpreting if your takeaway is that "nice guy" is applied to all lonely goofs rather than the ones who self-identify as such while spewing their dislike of the fairer sex.

I thought it was clear that it was being used as a means of gender war, at least for a period.

I haven't been on this forum much very recently, but I remember the period where people were gleefully running with "yeh, it's the guy's fault!" seemingly for every example being given.

Obviously reality lies between the extremes. This community is prone to trending hard on this kind of thing, and it's pretty ugly at times.

I'll agree with you that something's essence precedes its label, but I'd have to ask: why is assigning the label and formalizing a relarionship so important, then?

It's not, that's what I'm saying. I would say that a lot of people are engaging in courting that wouldn't say they were(or at least one party wouldn't), and that's a source of confusion.

Describing MGTOW as "a way men are addressing their issues"

Is accurate. Our opinions don't change that.

is about as neutral as saying, "groups of white boys with shaved heads and steel-toed boots have been gathering to speak on the issue of race". It's not indicative of anything constructivee, so why even bring it up? It's as useful as saying, "The two sides of this argument disagree on points." Thank you for your contribution, Captain Obvious.

Analogy is dumb. Sorry, but it is. I think maybe you've lost sight of what this thread was originally about. I was completely on topic.

Yes, a lot of loons online are assuming positions of authority while disseminating pick-up artistry, misanthropy of various shades, and codified antisociality to impressionable, awkward young men seeking validation and/or life advice. This is preferable how?

It's not an endorsement because you say it is. This is really stupid...

Things that are happening don't go away if they're not mentioned. The MGTOW thing is real, and also interesting, and also relevant to the topic of discussion.

Am I supposed to be apologetic about bringing it up? It's relevant...

 

[DonTsetsi]

I think you've confused "MRA Meeting" with "Attempt to open a shelter".

It's a natural mistake I think?

I would say that discussion and raising awareness is a big part of helping with issues, but if you want a story about a men's shelter, here you are:

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/earl-silverman-who-ran-mens-safe-house-dies-in-apparent-suicide

 

[Eclipse Dragon]

Okay, I am totally stealing your boyfriend.

Can you believe I found him on the internet?

And I kiiiiiiiinda want to know the thought process here, because I can't believe they're thinking "I'm an abusive, misogynistic dick who hassles women. Surely they're going to drop their panties at that!"

...right?

...please, someone tell me that's not the thought process....>.<

I think it hearkens back to the misconception that women like jerks, which is not true. Confidence is attractive, jerks at the very least tend to have more of that than the self proclaimed nice guys, but the nice guys instead draw the conclusion "women like jerks" rather than "women like confidence". The issue with the latter example is that it requires self evaluation.

The sad part is (at least in the case of my ex) these nice guys probably actually are very nice. He never lashed out at me when we were together, he was always thoughtful and considerate of my feelings and he was so in tune to them that even when something was wrong and I didn't say anything, he still knew I was hurting and he would do little things to try and make me feel better. If he only had a little confidence, he would have been perfect, unfortunately that's something I couldn't give him and in the end he chose to blame the world for his misfortune and wallow in his own misery, rather than push himself beyond his problems.

 

[DonTsetsi]

I think you've confused "MRA Meeting" with "Attempt to open a shelter".

It's a natural mistake I think?

I would say that discussion and raising awareness is a big part of helping with issues, but if you want a story about a men's shelter, here you are:

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/earl-silverman-who-ran-mens-safe-house-dies-in-apparent-suicide

I'm sorry... are you seriously trying to pin his suicide on, what... "SJW's"? Anti-MRA forces? Wow

Are you seriously saying I was talking about a fucking conspiracy or something?

What I'm saying is that people try to do something about men's problems but they get little support. The guy took his own life because he couldn't get even a tiny part of what the government gives to women's shelters. The real problem is that not enough people care.

It seems that once something is labelled a women's problem, men who have it are ignored.

 

[Raesvelg]

I'm sorry... are you seriously trying to pin his suicide on, what... "SJW's"? Anti-MRA forces? Wow

Well... from the article:

"Both Mr. Howitt and Mr. Matty said Mr. Silverman left a four-page suicide note blaming the government for failing to recognize male victims of domestic abuse."