Mar-A-Lago Raid

Ag3ma

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I'm asking for a reason not to take the plea deal.
??! Because they have a low chance of a successful defence, obviously.

I'm saying this guilty plea could be the lie, and true testimony might not match it.
Perhaps you don't quite understand how these sorts of plea deals work. Generally, the point here is to get the smaller fish to provide useful info to build a case against the bigger fish. A much more reasonable proposition is therefore that the prosecutors have established to their satisfaction that Powell and Cheseboro's testimony will support the cases against Giuliani, Trump and others rather than undermine them.

After all, if their testimonies benefit the defence, the prosecutors have just kind of helped kill their own case. The prosecutors might of course be that incompetent, but...
 
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Silvanus

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Do you actually not get this? I'm saying this guilty plea could be the lie, and true testimony might not match it. You're not even entertaining the idea that they could tell the truth and not have it hurt Trump.
Of course I 'get' what you're saying. And I'm replying that it's an unrealistic scenario crafted solely to rationalise something that's damaging for your party's candidate.
 
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SilentPony

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tstorm823

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??! Because they have a low chance of a successful defence, obviously.
Again, having a low chance of successful defense is a reason to take a plea deal.
My question is what is the incentive to turn down the plea deal?
After all, if their testimonies benefit the defence, the prosecutors have just kind of helped kill their own case. The prosecutors might of course be that incompetent, but...
Their testimonies don't have to torpedo Trump to benefit the defense in the simplest sense. These two are witnesses to the facts of the case, and can certainly be used in court to help establish those facts. The major question here isn't whether Trump did and said things. We all know he did and said things, most of it was televised. The question is whether what he did constitutes a crime, and unless they're going to testify that he detailed explicit crimes we haven't even heard about behind closed doors, their testimony isn't going to make the case for whether Trump's actions were criminal. But they can take away any potential doubt of what the actions are. And the public optics are good for the prosecutors.

There is plenty of motivation for the prosecutors here outside of "Sidney Powell's testimony is the final nail in Trump's coffin!"
 

Silvanus

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Again, having a low chance of successful defense is a reason to take a plea deal.
My question is what is the incentive to turn down the plea deal?
If they thought they could win at trial, turning down a plea deal would provide them with an avenue to: 1) avoid the heavy damage to their professional credibility that comes with a guilty verdict for a lawyer; and 2) avoid probation, community service, and fines; 3) attain vindication in the public eye.

But of course, they know they wouldn't win at trial. People who know they'll lose at trial are those with no incentive to turn down a plea deal.
 

tstorm823

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1) avoid the heavy damage to their professional credibility that comes with a guilty verdict for a lawyer; and 2) avoid probation, community service, and fines; 3) attain vindication in the public eye.

But of course, they know they wouldn't win at trial. People who know they'll lose at trial are those with no incentive to turn down a plea deal.
1) Too late for that, no matter the outcome.
2) A trial takes more time and money than community service and a fine.
3) No result of the trial would vindicate them in the public eye.
 

Silvanus

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1) Too late for that, no matter the outcome.
[...]
3) No result of the trial would vindicate them in the public eye.
You believe there's no difference to a lawyer's professional credibility if they're unable to prove in court that they themselves did not break the law.

Ya know, not everyone is like Trump, hiring solely on the basis of flimsy morals and flexible loyalties. Some people value competence and trust in their representation.
 
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tstorm823

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You believe there's no difference to a lawyer's professional credibility if they're unable to prove in court that they themselves did not break the law.

Ya know, not everyone is like Trump, hiring solely on the basis of flimsy morals and flexible loyalties. Some people value competence and trust in their representation.
These aren't just "lawyers" anymore. They're effectively celebrities. Public opinion of them is entirely removed from their legal credibility. It'd be like if Robert Kardashian was still alive, nobody would be talking about his credentials.
 

Silvanus

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These aren't just "lawyers" anymore. They're effectively celebrities. Public opinion of them is entirely removed from their legal credibility. It'd be like if Robert Kardashian was still alive, nobody would be talking about his credentials.
I promise you, Cheseman is not a celebrity. Most people had never heard of him before he pled guilty to a felony, which then immediately tanked his credibility as a lawyer.
 

The Rogue Wolf

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I promise you, Cheseman is not a celebrity. Most people had never heard of him before he pled guilty to a felony, which then immediately tanked his credibility as a lawyer.
And Sidney Powell made herself a celebrity by standing in front of cameras and saying the most insane shit imaginable for the purpose of keeping her boss in power.
 
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Ag3ma

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Case adjacent information...

Alice Bianco, a young woman once employed by Trump's Bedminster golf course, claims she was sexually harassed by her boss, and this ended up in a legal complaint. The allegations are that Alina Habba befriended Bianco posing as a neutral party, persuaded her to dump her lawyer and then arranged a deal as a "neutral" lawyer between Bianco and the club. Habba then persuaded Bianco it was the best deal she would get, and apparently also to sign it without fully reading it. However, this deal appears to have been exceptionally advantageous to the club, and may in parts not accord with the law. Shortly after, Habba was then formally employed by Trump. If true, it seems likely that Habba has engaged in serious misconduct.

Mm.
 

Hades

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so why do layers even work for Trump to begin with? Everyone who did so ended up either humiliated or in legal trouble, with Trump's longest lasting lawyer even going to jail on account of his corrupt boss. And from Rudy Colludy we know for a fact he's either unwilling or unable to pay them.
 
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SilentPony

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so why do layers even work for Trump to begin with? Everyone who did so ended up either humiliated or in legal trouble, with Trump's longest lasting lawyer even going to jail on account of his corrupt boss. And from Rudy Colludy we know for a fact he's either unwilling or unable to pay them.
They're not the smartest cookies. The smart lawyers refuse to work for him. The ones left over are desperate ambulance chasers who think they're the smart ones and they'll get one over on Trump and milk him for a few million then get offered a spot on Fox news as a legal expert. They view him as a stepping stone, and think unlike the other idiot lawyers who broke the law for him and got caught, that they are smart enough to not get caught.
What's the phrase, the dunning-kruger effect, where the dumb people don't know they're dumb.

Plus I'm sure the younger, hotter ones think they'll be wife #4 and get some of that lovely lovely child support money. Its no coincidence his lady lawyers dress like, and do their hair and makeup like Melania.
 
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Ag3ma

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so why do layers even work for Trump to begin with? Everyone who did so ended up either humiliated or in legal trouble, with Trump's longest lasting lawyer even going to jail on account of his corrupt boss. And from Rudy Colludy we know for a fact he's either unwilling or unable to pay them.
I might suggest here a radical notion: lots of lawyers are ethically upright people. Yes, I know. But bear with me.

Obiously, law is complex and lawyers can carry out all sorts of shenanigans... but within the law. They are bound to defend their client and can use every trick in the book, within the law. Naturally, a lot of this seems probably unfair, manipulative, trickery to an outsider, but it's actually all part of the rules, and lawyers tend to respect and honour the rules.

Now let's imagine you have a client who is nakedly corrupt, dishonest as a matter of course, and views the law merely as something to be cheated and got around, just like everything else. It is likely that many lawyers might draw the line, because he's expecting them to break their rules. In that case, it seems very likely that client will end up with dodgy lawyers, not just because of the function they will carry out breaking the rules, but because at a personal level client and lawyer will see themselves in each other, and like attracts like.
 

Thaluikhain

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They're not the smartest cookies. The smart lawyers refuse to work for him. The ones left over are desperate ambulance chasers who think they're the smart ones and they'll get one over on Trump and milk him for a few million then get offered a spot on Fox news as a legal expert. They view him as a stepping stone, and think unlike the other idiot lawyers who broke the law for him and got caught, that they are smart enough to not get caught.
What's the phrase, the dunning-kruger effect, where the dumb people don't know they're dumb.
Working for Trump is the new cryptocurrency?
 

BrawlMan

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They're not the smartest cookies. The smart lawyers refuse to work for him. The ones left over are desperate ambulance chasers who think they're the smart ones and they'll get one over on Trump and milk him for a few million then get offered a spot on Fox news as a legal expert. They view him as a stepping stone, and think unlike the other idiot lawyers who broke the law for him and got caught, that they are smart enough to not get caught.
What's the phrase, the dunning-kruger effect, where the dumb people don't know they're dumb.

Plus I'm sure the younger, hotter ones think they'll be wife #4 and get some of that lovely lovely child support money. Its no coincidence his lady lawyers dress like, and do their hair and makeup like Melania.
So, idiotic bitches-in-boxstands who don't care about anyone but themselves? The type Trump encourages and fosters until they're no long needed? Sounds accurate and predictable. Can we sacrifice these idiots, his cronies, and his "adoring fans" for a Philosopher Stone? Sounds really useful right now.
 
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Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
So, idiotic bitches-in-boxstands who don't care about anyone but themselves? The type Trump encourages and fosters until they're no long needed? Sounds accurate and predictable. Can we sacrifice these idiots, his cronies, and his "adoring fans" for Philosopher Stone? Sounds really useful right now.