Marriage

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Belaam

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Nov 27, 2009
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There are a few nice tax breaks and your car insurance rates plummet.

But yeah, you're essentially correct. It gives some nice legal protections if one spouse tries to screw over the other, but that's about it. Most of it is just BS social stuff.

-Happily married for 11 years on Darwin Day this year. Why people will send us cards for that anniversary and not the 15 years we've been monogamous and living together makes no sense.
 

The Funslinger

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Sep 12, 2010
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BiscuitTrouser said:
Marriage is:

An occasion like a birthday or christmas where we spend money on things that are, from a rational standpoint, stupid as fuck to feel good.

I mean specifically locating and harvesting a tree based on its seasonal usage of sap to prevent leaf freezing as opposed to those who shed leaves and withdraw nutrients?! WHY?! How odd! And people spend a lot of money on these, along with a series of balls constructed only from the most opaque and fragile glass, useless for containing even the tiniest bit of liquid!

We do it because our culture assigns times to feel good and indulge in feelings we as a people find admirable and enjoyable. For christmas its love toward eachother and a feeling of family togetherness. We represent this in a weird way, the "ideal" christmas is a tree and christmas dinner themed family occasion.

For marriage its love. Equally as weird of a ritual but a ritual to celebrate something worthwhile.

Marriage is a bit of fun where you gather those closest to you and ASK (not force) them to come and celebrate the fact you are happy. I was REALLY happy to be invited to my uncles wedding. I love my uncle.

Marriage is something a couple can do to reinforce their love with a bizare ritual. Ive been in relationships where we had weird little habits to reinforce our relationship. Doing certain things on certain days and things. Marriage is like one of those that everyone else can be in on. And thats nice!

I LIKE fancy dinners.

I LIKE eating cake!

I like having a great party with my close friends where we all get really drunk in a venue of my choice listening to music of my choice!

Marriage is NOT:

The end point of all romantic relationships.

"proof" of anything.

A reason to show off.
Illesdan said:
I've been married happily for going on thirteen years now. We didn't round everyone up and shove our happiness down their throat. In fact, we just applied for a marriage licence, waited three days, grabbed a couple of friends to be witnesses, and just got married by a judge. Everything total was 250 dollars, back in 2001, that is.

And, actually, it IS okay to walk out on someone if you aren't married. Morally, you suck if you do this, but in the eyes of the law, there is nothing keeping you legally and financially bound to another individual if you aren't married. This is why gays have been fighting for the right to be married, because if something happens to your 'significant other' they have no rights or say in what happens to them if they cannot speak or take care of themselves.

As for the 'Why?' of being married; it's not for everyone. You sound like you've been brainwashed to believe that getting married means big churches, fancy rings, expensive clothes and starting wedded bliss in debt. That's materialistic and stupid. Marriage is about love and being in love with someone special, saying that 'this person is who I want to be with forever.' Granted, you don't have to be married to say this; I've known of people who have been together for years without being married. But I also know they did so out of tax/legal reasons, as well.
This and this. Thanks, guys.

All I can really say is that to a lot of people like getting married. They like making that commitment. Doesn't work for you? Fine, but don't doubt the very real sense of happiness some people take from it.

Also, the legal benefits: Namely tax deduction. Also that married couples cannot be compelled to testify against each other in a court of law, but who goes into a marriage with that in mind?

All in all, I'm very wary about 'what's the deal with marriage' threads ever since I saw someone on the Escapist express quite seriously that if they could alter the law, they would make marriage illegal with harsh penalties.
 

Lightknight

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Nov 26, 2008
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Marriage is a societal norm. A commitment and financial union. I mean, taxes alone is a valid enough response if not to throw in the cultural traditions of the matter. Sorry if you don't want to get married or don't see any point to it. You not getting married does nothing to diminish those of us who do like you seem to feel us getting married does to your relationship. If it makes you feel better to think of us as fulfilling egotistical fantasies then so be it.

My marriage was a three day party at the beach with my closest friends and family. One of the best times I've ever had in my life and I would do the same if I had it to do over again. We've saved more money filing taxes jointly than we did on the wedding (though, we went really budget on the thing thanks to the venue only costing $43 for the pavillion where we ate and the beach was free).

It was important, a way to get our friends and family together from all over the country in the same place. We'll never have that again and we wouldn't have had it without doing it. People still talk about it. Laugh at the fun they had and ask if we'll ever just repeat it for fun.

And, at the end of the day, I would be lying if it doesn't make me happy to be able to call my best friend, my wife and to know that she happily calls me her husband. It is more meaningful to me than just calling her my girlfriend. Symbolic or not.
 

GamerKT

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It seems pretty pointless to me. I don't want a third party in my relationship, especially not a legal/government one.


Anyone can do whatever they want, though. I don't feel like it's worth the money or paperwork.
 

EeveeElectro

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Aug 3, 2008
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Marriage is the celebration of two people who love each other making a vow to stay together for the rest of their lives.
I can't believe how cynical some people are on here about it. Your view on marriage isn't everyone else's.

In some respects, I don't see the point of it either, but it shows you're super serious about how much you love your partner.
Unmarried people can just break up and move on quite easily. You wouldn't marry someone if you didn't want to stay with them for a long time.

I suppose some people are making it into a joke, getting married for a few months then realising they don't really love each other as much and divorcing. That's just a small pool of stupid people though.

People don't do it to show off, you should be happy if you're invited to a wedding because it shows that couple treasure you enough to share their special day with you.

I love weddings. I love seeing people in love, seeing people happy. I don't want to get married myself (right now at least. I won't say no to getting engaged) but I have absolutely nothing against those who do.

EDIT: I don't agree with the traditional views of marriage, the man now owning the woman etc. If I ever do, the vows are getting tweaked and no one is "giving me away".
 

tangoprime

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May 5, 2011
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The Funslinger said:
BiscuitTrouser said:
Marriage is:

An occasion like a birthday or christmas where we spend money on things that are, from a rational standpoint, stupid as fuck to feel good.

I mean specifically locating and harvesting a tree based on its seasonal usage of sap to prevent leaf freezing as opposed to those who shed leaves and withdraw nutrients?! WHY?! How odd! And people spend a lot of money on these, along with a series of balls constructed only from the most opaque and fragile glass, useless for containing even the tiniest bit of liquid!

We do it because our culture assigns times to feel good and indulge in feelings we as a people find admirable and enjoyable. For christmas its love toward eachother and a feeling of family togetherness. We represent this in a weird way, the "ideal" christmas is a tree and christmas dinner themed family occasion.

For marriage its love. Equally as weird of a ritual but a ritual to celebrate something worthwhile.

Marriage is a bit of fun where you gather those closest to you and ASK (not force) them to come and celebrate the fact you are happy. I was REALLY happy to be invited to my uncles wedding. I love my uncle.

Marriage is something a couple can do to reinforce their love with a bizare ritual. Ive been in relationships where we had weird little habits to reinforce our relationship. Doing certain things on certain days and things. Marriage is like one of those that everyone else can be in on. And thats nice!

I LIKE fancy dinners.

I LIKE eating cake!

I like having a great party with my close friends where we all get really drunk in a venue of my choice listening to music of my choice!

Marriage is NOT:

The end point of all romantic relationships.

"proof" of anything.

A reason to show off.
Illesdan said:
I've been married happily for going on thirteen years now. We didn't round everyone up and shove our happiness down their throat. In fact, we just applied for a marriage licence, waited three days, grabbed a couple of friends to be witnesses, and just got married by a judge. Everything total was 250 dollars, back in 2001, that is.

And, actually, it IS okay to walk out on someone if you aren't married. Morally, you suck if you do this, but in the eyes of the law, there is nothing keeping you legally and financially bound to another individual if you aren't married. This is why gays have been fighting for the right to be married, because if something happens to your 'significant other' they have no rights or say in what happens to them if they cannot speak or take care of themselves.

As for the 'Why?' of being married; it's not for everyone. You sound like you've been brainwashed to believe that getting married means big churches, fancy rings, expensive clothes and starting wedded bliss in debt. That's materialistic and stupid. Marriage is about love and being in love with someone special, saying that 'this person is who I want to be with forever.' Granted, you don't have to be married to say this; I've known of people who have been together for years without being married. But I also know they did so out of tax/legal reasons, as well.
This and this. Thanks, guys.

All I can really say is that to a lot of people like getting married. They like making that commitment. Doesn't work for you? Fine, but don't doubt the very real sense of happiness some people take from it.

Also, the legal benefits: Namely tax deduction. Also that married couples cannot be compelled to testify against each other in a court of law, but who goes into a marriage with that in mind?

All in all, I'm very wary about 'what's the deal with marriage' threads ever since I saw someone on the Escapist express quite seriously that if they could alter the law, they would make marriage illegal with harsh penalties.
Seriously, this is pretty much /thread right here. I see here a couple of young cynics who think it's old/outdated/not hip/etc. who will never buy into it because atheism / anti-monogamy or other reasons, and that's just fine, and I see a couple of people who see it for what it is, a beneficial legal arrangement for consenting individuals that allows them to pledge trust in one another and gain access to legal benefits therein, such as joint tax filing, shared healthcare, legal protections for one another, and asset protection for posterity. You also potentially bring more people closer to one another by joining families. Plus on the shallow side, cake is awesome, parties are fun, and you unlock a few clan tag you can apply at the end of your name if you wish.
 

Sable Gear

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Barbas said:
I don't see the point of it, other than funding somebody's quaint ideals and businesses. If love does indeed conquer all, it shouldn't be hindered by a few antiquated institutions.
Basically this. I don't see it as being egotistical so much as being as unwieldy and impractical a ceremony as high school graduation parties. Any derp can get married.

Marriage in the English sense that we use it today was invented to control who was having kids so limited land didn't have to be divided between too many "illegitimate" heirs. Since land ownership and sexual monogamy are way less important NOW than they were in pre-Medieval Europe, I think marriage a social convention that should be phased out, but that's just me.

(Also the whole "let's spend the rest of our lives together, but FIRST let's spend ALL OUR MONEY in one day!" side of it doesn't particularly appeal to me either.)
 

Thanatos5150

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Flutterguy said:
So this is something that has bothered me since childhood and I felt like venting..

Why. Why. WHY does marriage matter? So insecure in your own relationship you force your friends to all come say how wonderful your relationship? Even select your best friends to be 'bestman or bestwoman' pay hundreds if not thousands of dollars because you have to fulfill your egotistical fantasy? I'm supposed to idolize this? My relationship is somehow less important? It's OK to abandon someone because you don't have a ring... what kind of symbol-minded crap is that?!
I'm forced to deduce from your tone that something -- probably a lack of money and/or a friend's wedding -- has brought this up much more recently.
To tackle the "hundreds, if not thousands of dollars" thing: Nobody amongst my friends and family spent a penny on my wife and I's wedding that they didn't want to. And even then, the only thing they provided was whatever food they cooked and whatever gas their cars drank up to arrive. It was a very small, family affair. My wife kept me out of the financial end of the thing, probably because she knew I'd cut costs to the bare minimum "apply for a marriage license" levels and she wanted something different.

In your particular corner of the world, maybe things are different as a matter of course, but we actively discouraged our friends and family from spending any dosh on us, much less the obscene levels you're accusing all weddings of charging.

But seriously, man. Being married is great. It's...
I can't describe how absolutely awesome it feels every time I'm able to say "wife" instead of "girlfriend" or "Finacee". I wish I could bottle that emotion. I'd make millions.
(It's worth noting that I'm normally pretty emotionally dead).
 

Evil Moo

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Feb 26, 2011
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I find the concept confusing and it seems to originate mostly from religions, none of the beliefs of which I subscribe to. It seems like a lot of expense and effort for something that would only serve to put me in uncomfortable situations for a day. If I am to celebrate my love for someone, why would I want to do so through someone else's sickening traditions?

Then again, it is something of a non-issue given that I expect never to enter a serious relationship of that sort, let alone reach a point where marriage would be a possible outcome.
 

Kerric

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Flutterguy said:
So this is something that has bothered me since childhood and I felt like venting..

Why. Why. WHY does marriage matter? So insecure in your own relationship you force your friends to all come say how wonderful your relationship? Even select your best friends to be 'bestman or bestwoman' pay hundreds if not thousands of dollars because you have to fulfill your egotistical fantasy? I'm supposed to idolize this? My relationship is somehow less important? It's OK to abandon someone because you don't have a ring... what kind of symbol-minded crap is that?!
Well, here is a perspective that might as well come from another planet, I suppose. I'm in my mid-fifties, and got married in my late thirties.

You seem to be conflating two concepts - a wedding and a marriage. A wedding is a single public event marking the existence of a marriage in a very public manner. It is a "sacrament" in the technical sense of a sign of something that it in itself helps to create . You seem to think "symbols" are "crap," while I think that they are in fact a powerful part of human experience. The willingness to stand up in a very public venue and state that you hope to permanently commit yourself to a relationship with a single person and potentially raise a family together is not only important, it can help you live up to that commitment. However, it doesn't (and IMO shouldn't) be a big expensive affair that puts you in debt.

You don't force people to "all come say how wonderful your relationship" it, you invite them to celebrate with you something that you are personally very happy about. You rejoice - you share your joy, again.

Relationships can be tough - very, very tough. There have been times when I wasn't sure we would stay together. But the fact that we were (and are) married did actually help us through some tough times. And the promise of that commitment gives our kids a sense of security that they will have a family to look after them.

And, while I don't mean to be harsh, if (from your perspective in your last sentence) a public commitment has nothing to do with whether or not you stay together, then why are you opposed to making the commitment? Surely it won't weaken your relationship, and it might offer some support to your partner? And if you are unwilling to make such a commitment, don't you think that also says something?
 

Trunkage

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I've been happily married for a few years now. I thought Id add my grooms speech to give you my perspective on marriage:


***
Now before we continue, an explanation may be necessary. See, People have? credited me as thinking a little bit wonky. This next section may fall in that category.

One of our readings today went like this: ?Love is always patient and kind; it is never jealous; love is never boastful or conceited; it is never rude or selfish.?

I live in a world where absolutes don?t really exist. So when something like this paragraph starts using words like always and never, well? it?s a challenge for me. So, come take a journey while I examine this reading.

Firstly let?s look at love as patient and kind. When we were thinking about moving in together, one of Holly?s stipulations was me giving up smoking. Being patient and kind would mean that she wouldn?t give me that ultimatum, and that?s not what would have been best for me.

Love is never jealous or selfish. Now, isn?t getting married acting selfish? You devote your love to one person instead of equally loving the whole world. You will generally put your loved ones above anyone else. You will go out of your way to spend time with them. And the big reason you do that is to receive love back.

And isn?t being boastful what all the wedding is about. We, as a couple, said in front of everyone today that we love and are committed to each other. We could just say it to each other instead of telling everyone else. We, as humans, sing song, write books and poetry, direct movies based around love. Imagine if there was no extravagant displays of love, like the kind you see in any chick flick.

I?m not saying these things to be provocative. I?m saying this because I?m stating what I want. I want a person who will push me to do what?s best for me, who will be selfish to me and no one else, who is proud of my accomplishments and who is jealous of the time I spend away from her.

I want to thank you Holly for doing all those things and more for me. You?ve always been there for me, always loved me. You even forgive me I get up to mischief. Now here?s something that most of you don?t know, I knew within three months of meeting her, that I wanted to marry her.
***


The biggest reason why I got married? My wife wanted to before we had kids
Why isn't it important to me? I made that kind of commitment to Holly before I even thought of marriage
 

DEAD34345

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Marriage is just our culture's specific version of a universal... uh... I suppose "ritual" would be the right word? It's there to dis-encourage men from leaving women after they've gotten them pregnant, basically.

Biologically speaking, the optimum method for men to spread their genes is to sleep with as many women as possible and leave them immediately after. Women on the other hand can only produce one child at a time (or one batch in the case of twins etc), so they're incentivised to want to improve the chances of their child succeeding as much as possible, and sleeping around is mostly useless. This results in a situation where it's advantageous for women to only create children with men who have made an investment into them and their (future) children such as an expensive engagement ring, and a giant public party, which makes it less advantageous for the man to immediately run off to someone else.

Of course some of the reasoning behind this doesn't quite apply the same way it used to any more, but humans haven't really adapted to this whole "modern civilization" thing yet, and we're still basically set up to be simple tribal hunter-gatherers. Human instinct dictates that there needs to be a kind of contract to force fathers into looking after their children, and so we end up with things similar to marriage in every human culture out there.
 

Trunkage

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Oh an interesting little tidbit... The priest doesn't marry you, you marry each other. The priest is there to help with the words (and probably give some sort of sermon on marriage - that's the "added benefit" of using a priest)
 

jetriot

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People need to stop over-analyzing every little thing and just let other people enjoy life and do their own thing. Being married is great. My wedding was awesome and there is nothing better in my life than my kids. People want to express their love in public with a big party? Your response should be: "That is freaking awesome! Good for them!". Married life not for you? Family life not for you? Sweet. I hope you thrive in your life choices just as I thrive in my own.
 

YunaX

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jetriot said:
People need to stop over-analyzing every little thing and just let other people enjoy life and do their own thing. Being married is great. My wedding was awesome and there is nothing better in my life than my kids. People want to express their love in public with a big party? Your response should be: "That is freaking awesome! Good for them!". Married life not for you? Family life not for you? Sweet. I hope you thrive in your life choices just as I thrive in my own.
Exactly this. I've known many people who've never married, but have been partnered for life. As well as many high school sweethearts who tied the knot when the were young. For some relationships, getting a marriage and the benefits, either legal or emotional, are important and help them as a couple. For others, they felt they never needed a ring or vows to feel like they can be together/raise a family/etc. Hell, many people are now feeling like the don't need monogamy at all, and that's cool too.

If a couple is happy, then whatever works for them should be applauded.
 

Caiphus

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Mar 31, 2010
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Raikas said:
Those are good, but I think you missed an important one: legal and financial.

If you're going to immigrate to live with a different-nationality partner, or go along with your partner on an expat assignment, it's much simpler to do if you're in a legally-recognized marriage (for some countries, not being married makes it impossible).

In countries without a public health system, being married can mean access to a partner's work-based benefits system.

If you want to pass your nationality along to your child and you're living overseas with a non-married, other-nationality partner, some countries require you to be married to your child's mother in order to get the kid your country's passport.

And then there's visiting your partner in the hospital, or being recognized as next-of-kin if they die and all that stuff. If you're somewhere with solid recognition of common law relationships you're okay on that front, but if you're not then you need to be married to be legally recognized as family.
Cool, I'm not very well versed on the legal benefits of marriage, so thanks for filling that in there. It's impressive how widespread the legal implications can be if you choose to remain unmarried. But yeah, thanks for the reply.
 

shootthebandit

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Me and a guy from work had this conversation the other day. An average wedding in the UK cost £16, 000. If you think about it you could get married in a registry office for the price of the paperwork then spend the rest on a kickass honeymoon or even a deposit on a house.

You try telling a woman this and she will probably break your jaw but it makes perfect sense. Id much rather spend £16k that I dont have on a partner than on some shitty day where I have to put up with relatives ive not seen in years only to find out why ive avoided them for so long. Id much rather have a fortnight the 2 of us can enjoy on our own (maybe fly first class to the bahamas) rather than a day that nobody enjoys
 

Something Amyss

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krazykidd said:
I don't believe in marriage . Actually i don't even believe in monogamy . I think marriage is an outdated concept kept for religious reasons. Actually , i'm surprised monogamy is still goong to strong with the rise of atheism.
Mostly because neither of these concepts are religious in nature.

Interesting note: in the states at least, atheists have lower divorce rates than religious folk.
 

Ryan Minns

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shootthebandit said:
Me and a guy from work had this conversation the other day. An average wedding in the UK cost £16, 000. If you think about it you could get married in a registry office for the price of the paperwork then spend the rest on a kickass honeymoon or even a deposit on a house.

You try telling a woman this and she will probably break your jaw but it makes perfect sense. Id much rather spend £16k that I dont have on a partner than on some shitty day where I have to put up with relatives ive not seen in years only to find out why ive avoided them for so long. Id much rather have a fortnight the 2 of us can enjoy on our own (maybe fly first class to the bahamas) rather than a day that nobody enjoys
My question is... Why invite people you don't want there? Fuck them! When I get married, my sister and possibly even my mother will NEVER get so much as a phone call from me let alone an invitation. No wonder you don't like the idea. You're already trying to ruin it by inviting worthless people who shouldn't be invited lol.
 

JoeCool385

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I'm somewhat flabbergasted that only one person so far in this thread has landed even remotely close to grasping the purpose of marriage. The institution of marriage follows naturally from a few simple, basic facts about human nature and biology:

1. Human beings are altricial [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altricial]. That is, the young cannot care for themselves, and require someone else to raise them.

2. Human beings are naturally selfish and will often act in their own short-sighted self interest. Humans must be taught certain virtues, like prudence and temperance, so that they act with a longer-term view, forgoing immediate pleasures in order to obtain a long-term good, or enduring temporary suffering in order to avoid greater suffering down the road. Think of dieting in order to achieve good health, or pinching pennies in order to save for retirement. These are difficult behaviors to learn and must be taught in order to most effectively pass them on from one generation to the next.

3. Moreover, a society where everyone acts according to the cardinal virtues of prudence, justice, temperance, and fortitude will be more successful, more productive, and longer lasting than a society where everyone acts in their foolish short-term interests. I think the recent economic crisis in the US is a good example of short-term interest being to the detriment of society, i.e., where bankers make loans to people who can't repay them, and people take loans they can't repay, because there's an immediate payoff (profit/home-ownership), and they don't think about the long-term consequences (or think they can get away with it).

4. Every shred of sociological data we have, not to mention the wisdom of our ancestors, tells us that children are better cared for by their biological parents, and that children will learn best to be loving from parents who themselves love each other.

5. Children are a product of sexual intercourse, and until very, very recently, it was the only way to produce them. In fact, the entire reason human beings have a sex drive, biologically speaking, is for the procreation of the species.

Now, putting these facts together tells us that: a society where children are raised by their biological parents will be more likely to produce people that are better able to function for the benefit of the society. A society that brings children into the world, but does not educate them, love them, or teach them the cardinal virtues will not be as successful. From an evolutionary-sociology point-of-view, this trait of having children cared for by their biological parents is an evolutionarily selected-for trait.

I will add another fact here, which is sort of an aside, but does contribute to the argument:

6. Human beings, and men in particular, are not naturally disposed to stay in monogamous relationships and rear their own children. In fact, the optimum strategy for men to reproduce is to sleep with as many women as possible (someone else mentioned this farther up in the thread). However, this will result in children less likely to grow into mature, responsible adults.

For these reasons, all societies from the dawn of time have created a social institution, existing apart from religion (but sanctified by it, in all societies that practice religion, that is, all societies) to ensure that children are raised by their parents into virtuous adults, capable of carrying on the society into the next generation.

In short, marriage is the context in which a society permits sexual intercourse in order to ensure that children are properly cared for and brought up. Sexual intercourse taking place outside the bonds of marriage is more likely to produce children born not to two loving parents, and therefore children less adept at growing into mature adults, and therefore less able to further promulgate the society. This is why there is such a thing as marriage.

It is a public institution because childrearing is a public concern. Societies have a vested interest in assuring that the next generation can care for the previous in their old age, and natural selection favors those societies who try to carry their values and institutions into the next generation.

Marriage does not exist for the following reasons:

-To provide tax breaks, inheritance, shared health care benefits, or any other type of economic incentive to the two or three, or four, or more) persons (or sheep or inanimate objects). In fact, it goes the other way around: public benefits are given to married persons as incentive, because it's in the public's interest that the couple remain together through their child-rearing years.

-Because I'm in love and want to tell the whole world. One does not need any sort of formal, public, or governmental recognition of your relationship in this case. Go ahead and declare your love, eternally, until death, or for the next 7-10 years. No one cares.

-To increase the wealth, land, power, or kingdom of one's family.

-To subserviate women to men, and remind them who's boss. Rather the opposite, marriage exists to rein in the man, and get him to support his offspring and their mother. Anecdotally, note that it's often the man who resists marriage, even in these days of feminism.

-Because Jesus said so.


So, to the OP, if you see a wedding as just a big party to show off to your friends, and fulfill some egotistical needs, then you are absolutely right to oppose it as a sham. I'm right their with you. But as to the reason to get married? Why do it? How about: out of duty to one's children, lover, family, and society? Marriage is a responsibility, not a right.