Marriage

YunaX

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jetriot said:
People need to stop over-analyzing every little thing and just let other people enjoy life and do their own thing. Being married is great. My wedding was awesome and there is nothing better in my life than my kids. People want to express their love in public with a big party? Your response should be: "That is freaking awesome! Good for them!". Married life not for you? Family life not for you? Sweet. I hope you thrive in your life choices just as I thrive in my own.
Exactly this. I've known many people who've never married, but have been partnered for life. As well as many high school sweethearts who tied the knot when the were young. For some relationships, getting a marriage and the benefits, either legal or emotional, are important and help them as a couple. For others, they felt they never needed a ring or vows to feel like they can be together/raise a family/etc. Hell, many people are now feeling like the don't need monogamy at all, and that's cool too.

If a couple is happy, then whatever works for them should be applauded.
 

Caiphus

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Raikas said:
Those are good, but I think you missed an important one: legal and financial.

If you're going to immigrate to live with a different-nationality partner, or go along with your partner on an expat assignment, it's much simpler to do if you're in a legally-recognized marriage (for some countries, not being married makes it impossible).

In countries without a public health system, being married can mean access to a partner's work-based benefits system.

If you want to pass your nationality along to your child and you're living overseas with a non-married, other-nationality partner, some countries require you to be married to your child's mother in order to get the kid your country's passport.

And then there's visiting your partner in the hospital, or being recognized as next-of-kin if they die and all that stuff. If you're somewhere with solid recognition of common law relationships you're okay on that front, but if you're not then you need to be married to be legally recognized as family.
Cool, I'm not very well versed on the legal benefits of marriage, so thanks for filling that in there. It's impressive how widespread the legal implications can be if you choose to remain unmarried. But yeah, thanks for the reply.
 

shootthebandit

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Me and a guy from work had this conversation the other day. An average wedding in the UK cost £16, 000. If you think about it you could get married in a registry office for the price of the paperwork then spend the rest on a kickass honeymoon or even a deposit on a house.

You try telling a woman this and she will probably break your jaw but it makes perfect sense. Id much rather spend £16k that I dont have on a partner than on some shitty day where I have to put up with relatives ive not seen in years only to find out why ive avoided them for so long. Id much rather have a fortnight the 2 of us can enjoy on our own (maybe fly first class to the bahamas) rather than a day that nobody enjoys
 

Something Amyss

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krazykidd said:
I don't believe in marriage . Actually i don't even believe in monogamy . I think marriage is an outdated concept kept for religious reasons. Actually , i'm surprised monogamy is still goong to strong with the rise of atheism.
Mostly because neither of these concepts are religious in nature.

Interesting note: in the states at least, atheists have lower divorce rates than religious folk.
 

Ryan Minns

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Mar 29, 2011
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shootthebandit said:
Me and a guy from work had this conversation the other day. An average wedding in the UK cost £16, 000. If you think about it you could get married in a registry office for the price of the paperwork then spend the rest on a kickass honeymoon or even a deposit on a house.

You try telling a woman this and she will probably break your jaw but it makes perfect sense. Id much rather spend £16k that I dont have on a partner than on some shitty day where I have to put up with relatives ive not seen in years only to find out why ive avoided them for so long. Id much rather have a fortnight the 2 of us can enjoy on our own (maybe fly first class to the bahamas) rather than a day that nobody enjoys
My question is... Why invite people you don't want there? Fuck them! When I get married, my sister and possibly even my mother will NEVER get so much as a phone call from me let alone an invitation. No wonder you don't like the idea. You're already trying to ruin it by inviting worthless people who shouldn't be invited lol.
 

JoeCool385

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I'm somewhat flabbergasted that only one person so far in this thread has landed even remotely close to grasping the purpose of marriage. The institution of marriage follows naturally from a few simple, basic facts about human nature and biology:

1. Human beings are altricial [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altricial]. That is, the young cannot care for themselves, and require someone else to raise them.

2. Human beings are naturally selfish and will often act in their own short-sighted self interest. Humans must be taught certain virtues, like prudence and temperance, so that they act with a longer-term view, forgoing immediate pleasures in order to obtain a long-term good, or enduring temporary suffering in order to avoid greater suffering down the road. Think of dieting in order to achieve good health, or pinching pennies in order to save for retirement. These are difficult behaviors to learn and must be taught in order to most effectively pass them on from one generation to the next.

3. Moreover, a society where everyone acts according to the cardinal virtues of prudence, justice, temperance, and fortitude will be more successful, more productive, and longer lasting than a society where everyone acts in their foolish short-term interests. I think the recent economic crisis in the US is a good example of short-term interest being to the detriment of society, i.e., where bankers make loans to people who can't repay them, and people take loans they can't repay, because there's an immediate payoff (profit/home-ownership), and they don't think about the long-term consequences (or think they can get away with it).

4. Every shred of sociological data we have, not to mention the wisdom of our ancestors, tells us that children are better cared for by their biological parents, and that children will learn best to be loving from parents who themselves love each other.

5. Children are a product of sexual intercourse, and until very, very recently, it was the only way to produce them. In fact, the entire reason human beings have a sex drive, biologically speaking, is for the procreation of the species.

Now, putting these facts together tells us that: a society where children are raised by their biological parents will be more likely to produce people that are better able to function for the benefit of the society. A society that brings children into the world, but does not educate them, love them, or teach them the cardinal virtues will not be as successful. From an evolutionary-sociology point-of-view, this trait of having children cared for by their biological parents is an evolutionarily selected-for trait.

I will add another fact here, which is sort of an aside, but does contribute to the argument:

6. Human beings, and men in particular, are not naturally disposed to stay in monogamous relationships and rear their own children. In fact, the optimum strategy for men to reproduce is to sleep with as many women as possible (someone else mentioned this farther up in the thread). However, this will result in children less likely to grow into mature, responsible adults.

For these reasons, all societies from the dawn of time have created a social institution, existing apart from religion (but sanctified by it, in all societies that practice religion, that is, all societies) to ensure that children are raised by their parents into virtuous adults, capable of carrying on the society into the next generation.

In short, marriage is the context in which a society permits sexual intercourse in order to ensure that children are properly cared for and brought up. Sexual intercourse taking place outside the bonds of marriage is more likely to produce children born not to two loving parents, and therefore children less adept at growing into mature adults, and therefore less able to further promulgate the society. This is why there is such a thing as marriage.

It is a public institution because childrearing is a public concern. Societies have a vested interest in assuring that the next generation can care for the previous in their old age, and natural selection favors those societies who try to carry their values and institutions into the next generation.

Marriage does not exist for the following reasons:

-To provide tax breaks, inheritance, shared health care benefits, or any other type of economic incentive to the two or three, or four, or more) persons (or sheep or inanimate objects). In fact, it goes the other way around: public benefits are given to married persons as incentive, because it's in the public's interest that the couple remain together through their child-rearing years.

-Because I'm in love and want to tell the whole world. One does not need any sort of formal, public, or governmental recognition of your relationship in this case. Go ahead and declare your love, eternally, until death, or for the next 7-10 years. No one cares.

-To increase the wealth, land, power, or kingdom of one's family.

-To subserviate women to men, and remind them who's boss. Rather the opposite, marriage exists to rein in the man, and get him to support his offspring and their mother. Anecdotally, note that it's often the man who resists marriage, even in these days of feminism.

-Because Jesus said so.


So, to the OP, if you see a wedding as just a big party to show off to your friends, and fulfill some egotistical needs, then you are absolutely right to oppose it as a sham. I'm right their with you. But as to the reason to get married? Why do it? How about: out of duty to one's children, lover, family, and society? Marriage is a responsibility, not a right.
 

Odbarc

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Jun 30, 2010
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Flutterguy said:
So this is something that has bothered me since childhood and I felt like venting..

Why. Why. WHY does marriage matter? So insecure in your own relationship you force your friends to all come say how wonderful your relationship? Even select your best friends to be 'bestman or bestwoman' pay hundreds if not thousands of dollars because you have to fulfill your egotistical fantasy? I'm supposed to idolize this? My relationship is somehow less important? It's OK to abandon someone because you don't have a ring... what kind of symbol-minded crap is that?!
Once upon a time people didn't have sex unless it was with their marriage partner. They got married to have sex. Now they have sex before marriage so it really has become a little pointless. You can merely divorce when you wish without much backlash. Just some effort.

Tradition? :p
 

UltraPic

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Eamar said:
I'm an atheist, so I don't have the religious element to motivate me.
Don't atheist's normally have the same thing under a different name?. I am pretty sure the atheist society have marriage as a thing.
 

Eamar

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UltraPic said:
Eamar said:
I'm an atheist, so I don't have the religious element to motivate me.
Don't atheist's normally have the same thing under a different name?. I am pretty sure the atheist society have marriage as a thing.
Yes of course atheists get married (and it's still called marriage. Marriage isn't a religious concept). I just meant that one of the few reasons I would "get" the desire for marriage is if it's for religious reasons, because of the idea that you'd want your god to bless or condone your relationship, but I don't have that as a motivation myself.

The tone of my post was meant to be one of "I do not personally understand why you'd feel the need to do this, but I appreciate that other people have their reasons for it."
 

Canadamus Prime

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Jun 17, 2009
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I suppose that's one way of looking at it. I on the other hand look at marriage as a symbol, and the formation of said symbol is worth celebrating.
 

Kerric

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Lunncal said:
Marriage is just our culture's specific version of a universal... uh... I suppose "ritual" would be the right word? It's there to dis-encourage men from leaving women after they've gotten them pregnant, basically.

Biologically speaking, the optimum method for men to spread their genes is to sleep with as many women as possible and leave them immediately after. Women on the other hand can only produce one child at a time (or one batch in the case of twins etc), so they're incentivised to want to improve the chances of their child succeeding as much as possible, and sleeping around is mostly useless. This results in a situation where it's advantageous for women to only create children with men who have made an investment into them and their (future) children such as an expensive engagement ring, and a giant public party, which makes it less advantageous for the man to immediately run off to someone else. (Snip)
This is a rather simple sociobiological interpretation. Current thinking recognizes that if a male contributes the survival of his progeny, he has a better chance of passing on his genes since his kids can survive to reproduce, and when they do their kids have a better chance to survive, etc. So perhaps marriage isn't against the male's best genetic self-interest.
 

michael87cn

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Marriage is a sign of devotion to your loved one, it's not for anyone elses benefit.

It's really very simply and not in any way antiquated or anything. You love someone so you devote yourself to THEM, and marriage is how you do that. It's a sign, an act, a thing you can do besides say "I love you", because, words are, not enough.
 

nyankaty

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I am currently married and I think that I had a very different view of it than my current spouse.

To me, marriage is simply a legal agreement that says we share money and legal responsibilities. We get better deals on insurance and taxes. It's a set-in-stone agreement that we're committed to sharing the decent parts of life, but mostly that we're not alone in the deepest shit.

However, I do not think marriage has to be forever. When the agreement is no longer mutually beneficial, I don't see anything wrong with dissolving it or at least changing the terms of it. I think that marriage does NOT absolutely require love, but it would have to be understood by both people involved that it's a business contract at that point, and I see nothing whatsoever wrong with that.

I'm not religious at all, so god has no say at all in the idea of marriage for me. I definitely think being married makes having a child easier financially, but I think if I ever do decide to have a kid, I want to probably be alone in raising it but that's another conversation entirely!

I just think that marriage does not have to be this big, scary, ephermeral, romantic idea that so many people make it out to be. It's just a contract that makes it less easy to walk out on a person in bad times and it makes your tax rates better. Simple as that.

Though I don't think marriage has to have love to work, it does require complete trust, so if you love someone but don't totally trust them, then don't marry them.
 

Headsprouter

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Well...it keeps people together, and that benefits the kids. Sure, the ceremony can go, but let's have civil partnerships and such to keep the monogamy. We aren't living together for survival any more, because we don't need to, so do something to encourage people to stay together so their kids can get a good, well-funded upbringing. And if the two people get too fed up with each other, no sweat, just get child support from somewhere, and if the distanced parent is still a good, well-loved role model, make sure the kids get to see them.

As for the ceremony, it's a lovely gesture, but I think it's best kept down to earth. None of that big, fat gypsy nonsense. The traditions aren't as bad as they used to be. There's remnants of the father "giving his daughter away" by walking her up the aisle and that, but it's pretty harmless. Just a group of people being happy and having fun. It's a party, that's what they're all about.

So, I'm pretty indifferent to the whole marrying bit, but I like couples being couples and not going all polygamy and having kids scattered all over the place with no idea who their father is. I tell ya, if we were more traditional about relationships, Maury Povich would not have a job. But that's the trailer park's America.
 

DEAD34345

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Kerric said:
Lunncal said:
Marriage is just our culture's specific version of a universal... uh... I suppose "ritual" would be the right word? It's there to dis-encourage men from leaving women after they've gotten them pregnant, basically.

Biologically speaking, the optimum method for men to spread their genes is to sleep with as many women as possible and leave them immediately after. Women on the other hand can only produce one child at a time (or one batch in the case of twins etc), so they're incentivised to want to improve the chances of their child succeeding as much as possible, and sleeping around is mostly useless. This results in a situation where it's advantageous for women to only create children with men who have made an investment into them and their (future) children such as an expensive engagement ring, and a giant public party, which makes it less advantageous for the man to immediately run off to someone else. (Snip)
This is a rather simple sociobiological interpretation. Current thinking recognizes that if a male contributes the survival of his progeny, he has a better chance of passing on his genes since his kids can survive to reproduce, and when they do their kids have a better chance to survive, etc. So perhaps marriage isn't against the male's best genetic self-interest.
If the option to have several children is there, it's a much better choice than to have one child raised properly. Sheer numbers end up on your side. That's not really debatable, and in almost every species of mammal other than human the males mate with as many females as possible, and leave them straight after.

Then again, I didn't really mean to imply there were no benefits to marriage for men, I was just simplifying the idea to explain why marriage exists and is considered important in the first place. I'm far from knowledgeable about the subject, and I assume there are advantages and disadvantages for both sides in the arrangement. Humans have long infancy periods, so I suppose it's more vital for a male to care for his offspring than with most other species, and I guess it'd tie into preventing cuckolding as well(?).

The main point I was trying to make is that marriage "matters" because it's useful to the propagation of genes, which is why humans have evolved instincts that drive us to do it, and consider it important.
 

lacktheknack

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Jan 19, 2009
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Why do we have parties?

Parties are expensive, parties are stressful to the host, parties are not a logical choice of time usage. You'd be better off reading a textbook or practising a skill or volunteering at a soup kitchen.

Oh, those aren't fun? Those aren't the ways you'd like to spend your every spare moment? You want to do something mindless and enjoyable periodically?

Well, that's why we have parties.

And a wedding is the MOTHERLODE of parties. :D

EDIT: Misread that as "why do we have weddings". Sorry.

We have marriage because we want it.

I don't know what more you want. Having an official ceremony that legally binds me and a girl I love together for the long term is just plain old appealing.

Also, religious reasons.
 

Elfgore

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My guess it is just drilled into all of our heads when we are young that marriage it the ultimate form of love and commitment. Other than that it seems to be something that makes breaking up fifty times more difficult and expensive.