Marvel VP Speaks Mind on Manara Spider Woman Butt Cover

[Dead Metal]

Reminds me a lot of this Amazing SPider-Man vol 2 #30's cover
http://www.spiderfan.org/comics/images/spiderman_amazing_v2/030.jpg

I find it hilarious how some cry out for Spider-Man to also run around in an unrealistically skintight costume, so you've never seen or read Spider-Man have you?

Pro tip, most Superhero drawings of both genders are just naked people without genitals and nipples in different colours and colour combinations, with a crease or two here and there.

Yeah, female Superheroes are predominantly more sexualized these days, or "prettified" prior to the late 80s, in that they annoyingly don't cover their faces to hide their identity but display their faces, makeup, and hair for everyone to marvel at. I hate that too, but to act as if this silly rare variant cover, you'll actually have to actively seek out to be able to get is the worst thing ever is completely ridicules.


And on a side note, Spider-Girl was not written out of existence by One More Day, the May Parker alias Spider Girl was always in an alternate future, as in the future of an alternate universe and not the actual future of the classic universe. So she still exists.

 

[tzimize]

As a female reader, I just want equality with the men. Fine, you want to draw Spider-Woman with a suit that is so tight it MUST be sprayed on latex with her butt cheeks spread so wide you can park a jumbo jet between them, looking like she's presenting herself to the entire city of New York? Sure. But do the same for Spider-man now too.

Even if nearly 45% of comic readers are female, 95% of comic writers and artists are men, and the industry carries a rather unflattering stigma of sexism and chauvinism from decades of pandering to juvenile adolescents obsessed with T&A. Heck, that's practically what put titles like Witchblade on the map.

But times are different, and Marvel is, well, mainstream. When Avengers is the 3rd biggest movie of all time, you can't claim you pander just to a small, male, pre-teen demographic anymore. And, to be fair to Marvel, they have made great strides in improving their use and portrayal of female characters (ESPECIALLY compared to DC, who has gone in the reverse direction of progress).

As a female reader, I'm thrilled to see less cheesecake and pandering and more legitimate heroines that look and act like actual human beings.
Just a few I follow:

And probably my favorite heroine of all time:

(Shame Marvel erased her from existence with One More Day... just one of many reasons to hate One More Day)

From Black Widow to Scarlet Witch to the many great female leaders of the X-men (man, those movies did none of them justice...) to even lesser heroines like Rescue and Jessica Jones, Marvel's gotten much better, but the old stink of the past is still around in some parts, and it's still not quite as inviting to female readers as it probably should be.

Which is a shame. Growing up, I was told girls watched things like Jem, Strawberry Shortcake, Rainbow Bright, and My Little Pony, but I loved excitement, drama, and action, and instead was watching things like She-Ra, Scarlet in G.I. Joe, even April in Ninja Turtles and Cheetara in Thundercats. I was reading those wacky 80's issues of She-Hulk and Spider-Woman (the one in the cool black costume), and Batgirl was a huge role model.

I want young girls to have that same feeling, despite the last vocal gasps of male-driven comics going to the wayside. I saw this first-hand with a young female reader:

Things are improving, bit by bit by agonizing bit, but until Marvel is confident enough to put a Captain Marvel on screen in a leading role and making female-driven action vehicles "mainstream" (as if the one-two-three punch of "Catching Fire", "Frozen", and "Gravity" last year wasn't enough), it's going to remain a petulant problem where more ink is devoted to Spider-Woman's glutes than to her character, personality, heroism, or status as a role model for young girls.

So, hurry up, Marvel. I'm more than eager to pay money for a Captain Marvel film.

Hahahahahahahahaha! That is one of the funniest images I have seen in quite a while! The cherry is without a doubt the look on Black Widows face ^^

 

[Faith Meade]

So we're supposed to give an artist a pass because they've just always drawn sexist stuff like that? That's cool. While we're at it, let's just allow old, white politicians to pass anti-LGBT legislation. You know, since that's the way they've always been. Let's just allow racist cops to shoot unarmed black men because they were raised in a different time.

I know these are extreme examples, but the point is valid. We shouldn't excuse backwards thinking and harmful actions just because people are set in their ways and don't like to change. I don't care if this particular artist has always drawn these kinds of things, or even if this one is tame compared to the rest of their body of work. It doesn't make it not sexist.

 

[UberGott]

If you think that sexually charged is in and of itself, sexist, then no, you're not required to give Manara a pass. But if you think Marvel picked him out of a hat not knowing that overt fetishism is kind of the only thing Manara's famous for, you're kidding yourself. They wanted a provocative alternate cover, and lo, they got one... despite the fact that, as Dead Metal pointed out, it's not substantially different than Peter Parker showing us his tight, perky boy buns, other than said cover understanding that skin tight and "skin" aren't the same thing.

Comparing Marvel choosing to hire an infamous pornographer with a politician limiting the rights of any one group of people is a little extreme, I think.

 

[Kenbo Slice]

So we're supposed to give an artist a pass because they've just always drawn sexist stuff like that? That's cool. While we're at it, let's just allow old, white politicians to pass anti-LGBT legislation. You know, since that's the way they've always been. Let's just allow racist cops to shoot unarmed black men because they were raised in a different time.

I know these are extreme examples, but the point is valid. We shouldn't excuse backwards thinking and harmful actions just because people are set in their ways and don't like to change. I don't care if this particular artist has always drawn these kinds of things, or even if this one is tame compared to the rest of their body of work. It doesn't make it not sexist.

I'm pretty sure a comic book cover won't have as much impact as a bill denying a group of people their rights. But, good try dude.

 

[zinho73]

I liked the cover.
Manara is not just about being sexy, he is about being provocative.
Of course, it is just a variation of hundreds of comic covers that places boobs on offer to the reader. Greg Land has been cutting/paste porno actresses for years now in several covers.
Manara's work is at least original.
I think it is always valid to discuss the portrayal of women in comics, but I don't think sexy and provocative is out of place when it fits the character.
Artistic speaking, the drawing is anatomically correct if she was naked, but Manara ignores the wrinkles and extra lines that a suit would create(on porpoise).

Ugh, Greg Land. He and Liefeld and their ilk are just, ugh... I'll never understand how some people can defend these guys. Yeah, I get their impact on comics was huge and that at one time people were buying the books almost based on nothing more than who the artist was, making them minor celebrities, but still... ugh.

I think some inkers and colorists saved a lot of his work. And I think he is better than Liefeld. And that's all I got. Your post is full of win, sir.

 

[RealRT]

Meh. My issue is not with the cover being sexualized as much as it being poorly drawn.

 

[Brockyman]

In conclusion, I get the need for more realistic female characters, but attacking this stupid comic book cover, or the pose Black Widow had in the Avengers poster doesn't achieve that goal. In fact, I think it weakens your argument. Focus on what can be done to make things better, and allow men and women who enjoy the current characters while organically growing new, interesting, nuanced, strong, and awesome charachters people can relate too and cheer for, not just to fill a quota like Apache Chief.

/snip for large content, but go to the original post and check it out

We really aren't that far off in opinion. I'm glad the "quota" X-Men turned out to be something! I still stand by the point that "quota" characters shouldn't be the starting point in today's society....Oracle wasn't created to be a "disabled" hero, it was a natural progression of Barbra Gordon getting injured and facing an adverstiy, and same with Professor X in the recent "First Class", struggling with his powers, and gladly trading them to walk.

Same goes with turning Heimdall, Nick Fury and John Storm black... it doesn't affect the story, and I think that it was more based on the casting of talented actors more so than "hey, we need a black dude". John and Sue just b/c adopted into a mixed family, and it's pretty neat.

Also, I know women aren't the minority, that's why i did the women/minority to separate the two

Also, I didn't investigate that link you sent very much, but I am baffled someone has that kind of time to pick apart the drawings like that. I maybe have an hour or two to write in forums a week

Lastly, I think part of the issue is the way this argument is presented by others. You take a calm, rational approach, add pics, humor and footnotes, and make a good case. The way the writer for this article and the ones at IGN, Time and the Guardian wrote it more like a witch hunt/hardcore/"this is the worst thing in the world" tone, which doesn't sit well with many people

I love my comics, movies, and TV, and do get irritated when creators make bad decisions or drop the ball, but I really can't get worked up about it like so many people in geek culture can. I used to, but I learned that just writing a few posts, then smiling and going on with life/friends/family is much more fun than obsessing or worrying. I'm not saying you do that, but I would ask anyone reading this to step back from any nerd issue of the day, and go outside, call your friends/family, and just have some fun

 

[Neon Jackal]

Like I said in the other thread, the real crime is the main artist for the series, Greg "These are clearly traced from porn images and I have no idea how pelvic bones works" Land.

 

[Rellik San]

As a female reader, I just want equality with the men. Fine, you want to draw Spider-Woman with a suit that is so tight it MUST be sprayed on latex with her butt cheeks spread so wide you can park a jumbo jet between them, looking like she's presenting herself to the entire city of New York? Sure. But do the same for Spider-man now too.

Even if nearly 45% of comic readers are female, 95% of comic writers and artists are men, and the industry carries a rather unflattering stigma of sexism and chauvinism from decades of pandering to juvenile adolescents obsessed with T&A. Heck, that's practically what put titles like Witchblade on the map.

But times are different, and Marvel is, well, mainstream. When Avengers is the 3rd biggest movie of all time, you can't claim you pander just to a small, male, pre-teen demographic anymore. And, to be fair to Marvel, they have made great strides in improving their use and portrayal of female characters (ESPECIALLY compared to DC, who has gone in the reverse direction of progress).

As a female reader, I'm thrilled to see less cheesecake and pandering and more legitimate heroines that look and act like actual human beings.

I'm curious, where do you stand on the use of cheese and beefcake to make a satirical statement about comics then evolving into a high concept superhero drama about life and death with a focus on the humanity of the characters?

I other words: What's your opinion on Adam Warrens Empowered?

It's a comic I would recommend everyone in this thread read, as what started out as TnA Bondage one shots for a commission turned into one of the best superhero comics I've read in a long time.

 

[Thaluikhain]

I'm curious, where do you stand on the use of cheese and beefcake to make a satirical statement about comics then evolving into a high concept superhero drama about life and death with a focus on the humanity of the characters?

I other words: What's your opinion on Adam Warrens Empowered?

It's a comic I would recommend everyone in this thread read, as what started out as TnA Bondage one shots for a commission turned into one of the best superhero comics I've read in a long time.

In regards to how it handle sexuality, it's very variable.

Sometimes it says something insightful about how the way comics usually works, sometimes it's a silly parody, and sometimes it's just as bad as the stuff it's criticising. A lot of parody wanders into being not much different from what it is parodying, especially dealing with sexism like that.

In regards to the story, I like Ninjette, and Sistah Spooky really developed nicely.

There's a lot wrong with it, some really bad cliches and dodgy bits, but there's good stuff mixed in there as well.

 

[ZippyDSMlee]

I get it sexy=wrong.A shame people can not get over themselfs and enjoy simple things rather than over think it and complain.

 

[KingsGambit_v1legacy]

This cover is pure filth. It should be illegal for women to wear tight clothes. Also they should stop having hips, butts or a waist. Women having hips is disgusting and shameful.

 

[weirdee]

Reminds me a lot of this Amazing SPider-Man vol 2 #30's cover
http://www.spiderfan.org/comics/images/spiderman_amazing_v2/030.jpg

I find it hilarious how some cry out for Spider-Man to also run around in an unrealistically skintight costume, so you've never seen or read Spider-Man have you?

Pro tip, most Superhero drawings of both genders are just naked people without genitals and nipples in different colours and colour combinations, with a crease or two here and there.

Yeah, female Superheroes are predominantly more sexualized these days, or "prettified" prior to the late 80s, in that they annoyingly don't cover their faces to hide their identity but display their faces, makeup, and hair for everyone to marvel at. I hate that too, but to act as if this silly rare variant cover, you'll actually have to actively seek out to be able to get is the worst thing ever is completely ridicules.


And on a side note, Spider-Girl was not written out of existence by One More Day, the May Parker alias Spider Girl was always in an alternate future, as in the future of an alternate universe and not the actual future of the classic universe. So she still exists.

main difference between those two covers is that the focal point is where spidey's looking at, on the bottom, where there are more elements to focus on, while his ass is aimed away at the camera towards the background, whereas the other cover pulls her ass closer to the camera and she's not really looking at anything in particular, so there's nothing else for the reader to look at also

COMPOSITION, people

 

[garjian]

As a female reader, I just want equality with the men. Fine, you want to draw Spider-Woman with a suit that is so tight it MUST be sprayed on latex with her butt cheeks spread so wide you can park a jumbo jet between them, looking like she's presenting herself to the entire city of New York? Sure. But do the same for Spider-man now too.

That's the way I wish things were... (Well, besides that Hulk.)
Although, most superheroes, male or female, were skin-tight suits, it's the poses and what's emphasised that's key.

I'm starting to do a fair bit of drawing now for a project of mine, and I hope I never find reason to hold back on the sexualisation of any of my characters. If they can "get away" with what they do, I'm shooting for the same, but for everyone.

How come Hulk is making a sandwich and not Bruce?
I'm not up on my comic canon and I know these things change like the weather, but I thought Hulk was only Hulk when angry.

 

[Scorpid]

Milo Manara doing porn isn't relative to the conversation I think. I mean if the difference between art and porn isn't the naked risque posing lady but whether or not there is a penis around her and if she is interacting with it in the art then I don't care about the distinction. Masamune Shiro is one the best artists japan has and he does porn regularly. The difference between Shiro and Milo though is that he's actually good. Milo is simply prolific but his art has never been great or interesting. Even that cover he did for marvel looks half hearted and could of been done better by a different artist. The butt canyon is so freaking strange looking I have no idea why marvel didn't take one look at it and ask "wtf is this shit?". Also her lips look like she just transplanted Rockys lips at the end of the first movie. it just ugly.

EDIT: I will say this though. A company actually standing firmly behind its product and the artist!? Clearly not from the video game or radio industry. I'm happy to see that in this case.

 

[Sarge034]

Wait, wut? Did I really just see a major company handle a really really damning PR issue with straightforward answers, grace, and humility all the while trying to be impartial? ON TUMBLER NO LESS!?!?!?!?!?!!?!?!??!?!!?!??!!?

...
...
...

 

[Faith Meade]

So we're supposed to give an artist a pass because they've just always drawn sexist stuff like that? That's cool. While we're at it, let's just allow old, white politicians to pass anti-LGBT legislation. You know, since that's the way they've always been. Let's just allow racist cops to shoot unarmed black men because they were raised in a different time.

I know these are extreme examples, but the point is valid. We shouldn't excuse backwards thinking and harmful actions just because people are set in their ways and don't like to change. I don't care if this particular artist has always drawn these kinds of things, or even if this one is tame compared to the rest of their body of work. It doesn't make it not sexist.

I'm pretty sure a comic book cover won't have as much impact as a bill denying a group of people their rights. But, good try dude.

I never said it would. In fact, I expressly said these were extreme examples. The point is that "they've always done it that way" isn't a good excuse to let someone continue to be bigoted, misogynistic, homophobic, etc.

Also, not a dude.

 

[AstaresPanda]

I dont get how guys dont give a rats ass how they are portrayed in comic. Its pretty unrealistic but hey what guy does not want to look all ripped or what ever. So why is it this is an issue, aside from the pose being pretty odd, again not seeing the issue. Maybe get that image of what they think a women shuld look like and just let it be ? or OR be the change tyou want and make this realistic female super hero. Shit let hope these ppl bitchin about this never seen any anime or they will explode

 

[sumanoskae]

I really should prepare a statement for every time this issue comes up.

1: Sexy does not equal disrespected. I don't suffer from some insane mental illness that prevents me from respecting the subject of my lust.

2: A female character is not made any better by the lack of sexualization than she is by the presence of it.

3: If you really think that sexism begins and ends with an ass shot than you've severely underestimated it.