Marvel vs Capcom 3 Tiers! (Personal)

[Atmos Duality]

Well, yeah but when you say it like that it sounds bad, it's the most awesome part of the game, it is where mastery comes in play and truly impressive styles and techniques emerge.

"Fox vs Marth. Final Destination."

Chain Throw Marth vs Shine Fox. In this example, every other viable metagame concept is nothing more than a lesser form of that match (or a mirror match). Now I have absolutely no reason to watch nor play Smash Bros Melee anymore, because that is the only match the community wants to play, or is the only match that "counts" because it's the "highest level" of play.

Why? Because that's the most viable strategy, period.
Once the stagnation has been established, the game plays out for a short while, and then dies.

Enjoy the game while you can, because sometime, somewhere in the future, if someone express interest in the game long after the metagame has been established, some elitist asshole will appear to dictate how one MUST PLAY (because the optimal playstyle already exists).

This ultimately defeats the point of a video game as recreation.

This happened with Soul Caliber. It happened with Smash Bros Melee. It happened with MvC2, it will inevitably happen with MvC3 as well.

You talk about "impressive styles" emerging, when it's actually quite the opposite that happens; styles are systematically eliminated in favor of mathematically superior combo chains and move-sets. A healthy metagame would allow for several styles of play, but fighting games are impossible to balance strictly due to the nature of the number of variables involved.
I could elaborate ad-nauseum about the subject, but there is no point in doing so; the metagame would stagnate no matter what, simply due to human nature.

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

Well, yeah but when you say it like that it sounds bad, it's the most awesome part of the game, it is where mastery comes in play and truly impressive styles and techniques emerge.

"Fox vs Marth. Final Destination."

Chain Throw Marth vs Shine Fox. In this example, every other viable metagame concept is nothing more than a lesser form of that match (or a mirror match). Now I have absolutely no reason to watch nor play Smash Bros Melee anymore, because that is the only match the community wants to play, or is the only match that "counts" because it's the "highest level" of play.

Why? Because that's the most viable strategy, period.
Once the stagnation has been established, the game plays out for a short while, and then dies.

Enjoy the game while you can, because sometime, somewhere in the future, if someone express interest in the game long after the metagame has been established, some elitist asshole will appear to dictate how one MUST PLAY (because the optimal playstyle already exists).

This ultimately defeats the point of a video game as recreation.

This happened with Soul Caliber. It happened with Smash Bros Melee. It happened with MvC2, it will inevitably happen with MvC3 as well.

You talk about "impressive styles" emerging, when it's actually quite the opposite that happens; styles are systematically eliminated in favor of mathematically superior combo chains and move-sets. A healthy metagame would allow for several styles of play, but fighting games are impossible to balance strictly due to the nature of the number of variables involved.
I could elaborate ad-nauseum about the subject, but there is no point in doing so; the metagame would stagnate no matter what, simply due to human nature.

You're talking about SSBM here, that game was not a fighting game, it was a party game with a fighting gimmick. The fact that it was ever played anywhere beyond grade-schooler's bedrooms is due to these "elitist assholes" bringing worth into it by discovering advanced strategies which gave depth to an otherwise shallow game.


People aren't banning ways of playing, they just find the best ones out and you're allowed to use them or not. The fact that you'll die horribly without them simply is a testament to the skill of the winner and to the worth of the discovery. As for the whole no items final destination thing, that is the sacrifice which had to be made to bring melee out of it's intended audience's level and make it something more. I personally am not 8 thus do not mind the exchange of being able to throw pokeballs and use hammers in the middle of my fighting game for higher levels of balance and the removal of random unfair undeserved advantages.


Those "mathematically superior" styles are the most impressive ones. In this kind of game doing damage is the best measure of skill and the most efficient safe and easily applicable way of doing that IS impressive. You just need to be loving the game as a fighter and not as a showy action game in order to appreciate that. I am all for flashy cool stuff too, which is why I play Jrpgs, fighting games are there for the reflex-centered competitive style of play and not the stylish relaxed slow moving kind of play though. Both are good, each genre should just do it's own kind.

 

[Aura Guardian]

Best: Tron Bonne
Worst: Wesker,Phoenix
Favorite: Tron Bonne

 

[Awexsome]

Hopefully it's well balanced enought that the dreaded tiers don't show up for a while. But Sentinel looks really bad already. A lot of people say Dante, but his terrible recovery for his moves I think will put him pretty balanced in the long run. Maybe on the super competitive stage people will be good enough to put him in the God tier but for a more casual online play I don't think he's bad.

My personal fav's are Wesker and Taskmaster because I LOVE the counter hypers, then Iron man and Viewtiful Joe (even though he's not that good). I really want to do well with Joe but he's so small and has such abysmal range, movement speed, although his attacks and combos are great, landing that hit or launch to start it is really hard to pull off.

So maybe someone is a time bomb waiting to happen but right now all I'd ask for is the person with the strongest attacks and the largest amount of health to not be quite as good. Plus he has free mouth beam spam for more noobish online play.

Bad for the pros, and bad for the online noobs like me.

 

[the fake]

Best: wesker
worst:felicia
Fav: deadpool

 

[Atmos Duality]

You're talking about SSBM here, that game was not a fighting game, it was a party game with a fighting gimmick.

Right, and Goldeneye wasn't a first person shooter. It was a spy game that happened to feature guns.
No, SSBM was definitively a fighting game; and was built to be such from the ground up. The major difference (compared to regular fighters) is that it has a minor platforming element.

The fact that it was ever played anywhere beyond grade-schooler's bedrooms is due to these "elitist assholes" bringing worth into it by discovering advanced strategies which gave depth to an otherwise shallow game.

Pfft. Oh yes, some "depth". Two-three characters in the Top Tier of every game that everyone plays, using the same moves and the same combos.

This is why I say the PROCESS is better than the result. In exploration, the players engage in a battle of wits, and true skill emerges. Once the combos are established though, it becomes a matter of trite recitation and luck; an elaborate game of paper-scissors-stone.

As for the whole no items final destination thing, that is the sacrifice which had to be made to bring melee out of it's intended audience's level and make it something more.

By focusing exclusively on a narrow subset of the game under the pretense of "balance"?
I might have bought that argument if they even considered alternative methods of play; but they didn't. It takes a different approach, and thus, different skills to play with items on, or even on other levels.

Not LESS SKILLFUL. DIFFERENT. Adaptation is a key feature of human nature; when we explore the metagame, we are in fact, adapting. However, when one prevents the possibility of the environment changing, we cease to adapt because there is no need.

"Mastery" is the result of our overcoming the need to adapt.

In this case, these "pros" never once stopped to consider that by eliminating these things, they aren't evening the playing field for everyone; they're changing it so that certain characters/styles are favored in that environment.

It's like a fish competing in a triathlon. He will fail at every event except the swim meet; where he will excel beyond his wildest dreams. But then these "pros" turned around and said that only the swim meet part counts.

What invalidates the other modes? Other variants? Nothing.
Absolutely nothing except the paradoxical concept that the game won't be "balanced" (a laughable gesture when the game, in its current state, at its highest levels, is already unbalanced to the point where only two styles are viable. So what would constitute "balance"? A wider variety of styles and characters; not just 1-3).

Those "mathematically superior" styles are the most impressive ones.

They are impressive for a time, I admit, but it eventually becomes so formulaic that there is no point in playing anymore.

 

[NeutralDrow]

@Dreiko Thank you for being the sole person of logic.

...

Um...isn't having personal interpretations of tiers kind of defeating the purpose of tiers? Tiers are a gaming community's amalgamation of collective experience, playing theory, and tournament results. I wouldn't think there are any "personal" tiers, only tier predictions.

I feel insulted.

Worst: Spencer- I not pro at this but I can at least handle normal difficulty, but whenever I'm Spencer I'm always horrid with him. Stupid vertical claw I keep accidentally using.

That's when you start thinking about the specials you do. For example, don't use the strong attack button when doing that.

Personally, I love using medium attack in the air (the down-diagonal). Spencer controls a lot like Rider in Fate/Unlimited Codes (plus ceiling swinging, of course), meaning I took to him pretty quick. The grappling claw is a sick anti-projectile, and the Bionic Punch hyper has a surprising range (horizontal and vertical), meaning he's a decent spam counter.

Also, the look on your opponent's face when you're right above them and do the vertical grab...priceless.

And X23 because she is dame fine looking.

Preach it!

 

[Thespian42]

Best: It's looking like Magneto or Dante, but it's still too early to tell.

Worst: Spencer. With Some solid dodging and counters, and I can't really see him being much competition.

Favorite: Viewtiful Joe. I will never, ever get tired of losing with Viewtiful Joe.

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

...




I feel insulted.

Lol, sorry for stealing the spotlight .


Btw, as for Wesker, his counter super is amazing since you can combo after it and it counter's everything physical, even other hyper combos.

 

[Woe Is You]

Those "mathematically superior" styles are the most impressive ones.

They are impressive for a time, I admit, but it eventually becomes so formulaic that there is no point in playing anymore.

What you're describing here is a game that is degenerate (admittedly, disabling items was something I never really got in Melee since they can be considered a part of the game). On the other end we have a game like Super Turbo, where even characters that are considered shitty like Old T.Hawk are played at a tournament level (this year's SBO results were... interesting to say the least). Marvel vs Capcom 2 is unbalanced as hell but even it has over a dozen team setups that have consistently won national tourneys in the US. And it took years for MvC2 to get to the point where it's now: in the beginning people actually thought characters like Mega Man, Cammy and Iceman where the top tier.

We already know that MvC3 is full of glitches and is unbalanced as hell but whether it's unbalanced to the point where it becomes degenerate remains to be seen.

As for "pro" playing, all it should be is using all the tricks within the game to your advantage unless they're strictly forbidden. A lot of the tournament winning guys in fighting games spend a lot of time trying to come up with new tricks to have a leg up. If they only rely on "mathematically superior combos and movesets", they're sure to be beaten by the guy who knows all the tricks and knows how to counter them by using a tactic that is seemingly inferior or downright weird. Upsets are more common than you'd think.