Mass Effect 3: It's not the endings, its the final battle (And synthesis)

[Saviordd1]

It's a free internet, you could have seen the words "Mass Effect" and "Ending" and skipped over it, yet you came into this thread.

Not my fault for your lack of judgement on this.

Oh I'm sorry for intruding in your complaint thread. I didn't know it was improper to question your hatred of the game. Next time, put "no dissenting opinions allowed" in the topic header, maybe?

Nice way to side step my point.

You don't want to hear it anymore, yet you put yourself in the situation to hear it.

That's like someone who's allergic to fish going to a seafood restaurant.

And where did I say I hated it? Oh right, I didn't.

and finally if you want to "question" my opinions on the topic given then fine, but you veered off topic to whine about my whining. That's not a "dissenting opinion" that's jumping on the "we've seen this before" bandwagon.

If you want to discuss the point of the OP, fine, stay and argue. If your sick of ME3 threads and complaining about the ending why are you here?

You know that's not how the Internet works, right? Then again you're still hung up on a game nearly a year after release, and months after the developers owned up and said, "alright already, you guys win. Here's the best we could come up with."

The point is yes, the game is flawed. We determined that months ago! Nobody's on the other side of the issue; if anything, we all agreed on it. The only difference here is, the rest of us said, "ok, we're done ranting about this game, we got the devs to say uncle. I'll just play the first one now."

Is it wrong to get exasperated that a topic that we all thought settled, with countless threads already in these forums, in BSN, and in other networks, and yet someone still feels the need to bring this up? Is it wrong to voice my exasperation? Is it wrong to feel ashamed at being associated with this kind of fandom?

That STILL doesn't explain why your here. Are you a sadist? Because the only one forcing you to deal with this IS YOU. You can leave and never think about the ending again, you can ignore this one thread out of 10000 others on this site alone.

You chose to come here, read the OP, remember the endings, get annoyed, and responded.

Whereas you could have simply looked at the title, mentally said "whatever I don't care" and then continued your browsing.

And it's not like this is a 24/7 job for us, I wasn't really on the front lines of the original arguments; now that the dust has settled I'm hoping for better discussion and ideas.

Apparently that's impossible because the old ending vets would rather come onto my military base and scream about how war is bad. (To use a very stretched analogy)

It's a free internet, you could have seen the words "Mass Effect" and "Ending" and skipped over it, yet you came into this thread.

Not my fault for your lack of judgement on this.

Oh I'm sorry for intruding in your complaint thread. I didn't know it was improper to question your hatred of the game. Next time, put "no dissenting opinions allowed" in the topic header, maybe?

Nice way to side step my point.

You don't want to hear it anymore, yet you put yourself in the situation to hear it.

That's like someone who's allergic to fish going to a seafood restaurant.

And where did I say I hated it? Oh right, I didn't.

and finally if you want to "question" my opinions on the topic given then fine, but you veered off topic to whine about my whining. That's not a "dissenting opinion" that's jumping on the "we've seen this before" bandwagon.

If you want to discuss the point of the OP, fine, stay and argue. If your sick of ME3 threads and complaining about the ending why are you here?

To be perfectly fair, you are kinda just beating the pureed remains of what was once a horse. Can I ask what prompted you to even bring this topic up?

Well I get I'm beating the poor zombie horse but he also didn't need to grab a bat and come to zombie horse beating meeting so to speak.

As to what sparked this thread it was me running through the Mass Effect series again and closely scrutinizing everything I liked and hated about ME3. (Also to see if the Indoctrination Theory still held any water after the EC, which, actually, kinda does)

But every Prothean AI in the series is capable of detecting indoctrination, yet they never detect in in Shepard. I would also argue that the EC tears more holes than it mends, but that's just me.

Hmm good point, at the same time was Kai Leng really indoctrinated or just following the Illusive Man? They never really answer that.

 

[JellySlimerMan]

The game sucked, full stop.

-less overall content
-crappy cameos
-No real point of "choice" existing
-Contrived story/plot
-Half-arsed (ripped-off) ending with no conclusion


Sure, there were some good things but those good things don't really stand against the crap.

its the lack of god damn pay off.

I dont remember if it was a reviewer, a fan, or a higher up somewhere, but i believe that one of those said:

"There IS pay off. If the game acknowledges in any way, however small, your actions, then it is by definition taking your choices into account AND it also qualifies a "branching narrative". Therefore, your choices DO matter but you just didnt like it because you are an entitled whiny and innefectual baby. Also, your loyalty to the company doesnt mean anything when something as risky as making a branching narrative takes too much money away. I am sorry that your loyalty MADE this company survive all this time but they dont need you anymore."

 

[ThriKreen]

But you're still guessing about the sleep mode thing. They're a race of timeless, immortal machines, why would they go into sleep mode? Are they afraid of getting bored or something? Or at least, why would the Catalyst go into sleep mode? It would seem that the thing with the Protheans, the potential for there to be survivors would be a very good reason to stay awake. Actually, come to think of it, shouldn't Sovereign have been monitoring the Citadel as well?

What would you do for 50,000+ years with nothing to do? Play cards? And even with the energy source for the Reapers (seen from the salvaged one in the Cerberus base), it still costs energy to power a fully activated Reaper when all it is doing is sitting around twiddling its thumbs tentacles. Hence, hibernating in some sort of sleep mode makes logical sense to conserve energy.

And even if it doesn't like to intervene, why is it so quick to present you with three new solutions entirely of its own creation when you prove you're worthy of them? Why is its response to you breaking the cycle just to create an even bigger system of its own on top of that?

To quote the Citadel: "You are the first organic to come here. You have changed the variables." (paraphrased).

And the Citadel showcased it's preferred solution. Control was TIM's choice, and Destroy was everyone else's lacking what the deal was. Then with the extra energy the Crucible offered, it realized - with Shepard specifically - it could create a solution that wasn't possible before. Assuming with a high enough EMS that it arrives at the Citadel undamaged, thus can provide enough energy.

And hence why the Indoctrination Theory doesn't work - if Shepard wasn't special, it could have done it with any ol'human DNA, like lie and tell TIM that jumping into the green beam was the Control solution. But nope, it HAD to be Shepard. Shepard did something no other organic was able to do, so it realized this continued cycle would not keep working.

TIM focused on segregation and superiority, much like the Protheans and Reapers, basically continuing the status quo.

Shepard on the other hand, focused on unifying everyone, much like what Synthesis was about. And Liara showcased as such with her version of the Prothean beacons in the Refusal ending, where eventually a later cycle was able to defeat them - sharing information to allow everyone to help each other and themselves.

 

[JellySlimerMan]

Combined from the evidence of the conduit at Ilos-or did that get destroyed?

Yes, that gets specifically mentioned in the second game.

When does that happen? The only times I can remember Ilos being mentioned in 2 were the gardener on the Citadel talking about it being used to bring back flowers, and a picture of it in Liara's apartemnt in Lair of the Shaodow Broker.

EDIT-Also they mentioned that Vigil stopped working, but I can't remeber the Conduit being mentioned.

http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Conduit

As described in the wiki, the only thing relevant about it after ME1 is that the public has become aware of some of the details of the Conduit, as a Presidium Groundskeeper recommends that Shepard look at some demael flowers across from the Conduit on the Presidium.

Ilos was never mentioned again after talking about it with the Council in ME2, and since ME3 plot needed to make people use the beam on London (That somehow is called The Conduit too even when its 2 different things and transport you to different locations) to get inside the Citadel and open up the arms, why not just use The Conduit on Ilos? the narrative didnt say anything about it being destroyed or not being able to be repaired if that was the case, and since its an object that we KNOW we can trust much better than the London Beam (who for all we know, it could send humans, alive or dead, to a chamber to be liquified. Or maybe instantly liquify you as soon you touch it) why not use it?

The Conduit of London clearly ISNT the same The Conduit of Ilos because we would have died instantly if we used it on foot: (see the wiki)

"When you get close enough the Conduit, it will automatically take the Mako and send it to the Citadel. Note that attempting to enter the Conduit on foot for whatever reason will result in instant death. "

http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Ilos:_Trench_Run

Speaking of Vigil, groups that ventured to Ilos following Shepard's visit found that Vigil had shut down (possibly due to full power loss). This allowed the Council to continue to believe that Sovereign was a geth ship, due partially to the lack of evidence that the Reapers existed.

http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Vigil

However, it doesnt say that it was destroyed or that it was impossible to restore, it just says that it shutted down because of power loss. So why not find another power source for Vigil to re start its circuits? Modern computers today dont lose data that was saved if there is an energy shortage and shuts down, you only need to turn it on again and all the crap will still be there, so why not do that? or why not scavenge its system/circuits to know how it can detect indoctrination, reverse ingenier it, and spread this anti-reaper measure to all galaxy OR AT LEAST to The Council, so they get to see the Derelict Reaper personaly without getting indoctrinated.[

I'm still the one who's having fun.

Life's too short to whine about things.

Then play Gears of Wars, its the game that ME tries and fails to emulate. And unlike Mass Effect, GoW has no delucions of "artistic integrity". You will have more fun that way.

Also, life may be short, but that doesnt mean that you have to reward lazy people and inferior products with your money, that will fuck the life of everyone else who did care about making observations and analizing the things you find meaningless.

 

[JellySlimerMan]

Shepard on the other hand, focused on unifying everyone, much like what Synthesis was about. And Liara showcased as such with her version of the Prothean beacons in the Refusal ending, where eventually a later cycle was able to defeat them - sharing information to allow everyone to help each other and themselves.

But using Synthesis (and all the other endings for that matter, except Refusal) is still means you are agreeing with the Reaper methods:

http://awtr.wikidot.com/long:this-is-not-a-pipe

 

[JellySlimerMan]

The ending, though... that's difficult. For one, I think the hype is understandable, but utterly ridiculous. Not the people, just the hype.

You sure its hype? let me copy pasta this, since i already know some loony is about to do it before i do:


Skip to 19:57

 

[JellySlimerMan]

The up spin of all this, though, is that the Catalyst is a Reaper. It's entirely possible it lied about a whole bunch of stuff. After all, with high enough EMS, Shepard survives. And, though we don't see any geth, or EDI, in the summary slideshow, we also don't hear any confirmation they died. So it's pretty easy for me to watch the destroy ending, see Shepard and the crew all survive and imagine that the geth at the very least made it too. EDI is an acceptable sacrifice for that ending, much as I grew to like her in 3.

Claiming the Catalyst is a Reaper despite it being blatantly obvious that the Catalyst is not "a Reaper" simply so one can pretend it is unreliable and that there really isn't any price to pay in the Destroy ending.

*facepalm*

This is the message that game developers might get from ending-bashers: if you make a game where victory through sacrifice is a major theme from the beginning to the end, then people will like that theme up until the very last moment when they will hate it just because it spoiled their sunshine-and-flowers happy ending.

But...he is. Basically.

He is a super advanced AI who controls the reapers thinking and actions; that basically makes him one if not in body.

Who's distorting the facts here again?

Excuse me good sir. I was just looking around this thread and i saw the oportunity of asking you something because i believe my ears have become too old to register proper sound.

In this video here, does the Catalyst say something like "I embody the collective intelligence of all Reapers" (3:38). And correct me if i am wrong but, doesnt the Catalyst use alot of the "WE" in his sentences? strange isnt it? he is using plural like there was more than one person....maybe its just my imagination.

 

[The Heik]

snip

No one is saying that because they think they're hilarious. They're saying that because they are genuinely sick and tired of hearing about it now. Seriously, ME3 has been out for almost a full year, and we've yet to have a single month without SEVERAL of these threads popping up like clockwork.

I honestly have to ask: Why did you bother to put this thread out into the forums in the first place?

This subject has been done to death. Literally every point you made in your argument has been covered dozens of times before on this site alone. At this point there is no aspect of the game's final hour that hasn't been referenced, cross referenced and analyzed to the point where there is no more dead horse left to beat anymore.

It is an utterly redundant subject, and the only reason I can garnered as to this thread's existence is to start a flame war, because when you say things like this

Because there's literally no way to talk about this without someone getting their panties in a twist I'll just leave this "disclaimer" here
-No, I don't want to argue about Bioware being dickheads
-No, I don't care about how its multiplayers fault
-No, The indoctrination theory is not a thing
-Yes, we get it, the endings really sucked to start with

and this

Anyway, I'm done, and since I know you can't talk about Mass Effect without having a big "SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP, WE WANT NO MORE" or "This thread again" posts by people who I'm sure think they're hilarious I'll just leave this here.

it seems very much like you're doing this just to bait people.

 

[PJGlenn]

I wanted the crucible to be a trap and for the entire Universe to be enslaved/die horribly

Long Live the Reapers

 

[JellySlimerMan]

About the Catalyst interfering - regardless of what everyone says regarding Starchild (a lot of which I more or less agree with), Starchild was not a Reaper. The Reapers knew NOTHING about him/it. NOTHING. They believed they were, as you put, immortal. That they had been born before time itself, or whatever Sovereign said when you spoke to him. Like the Geth, the Reapers very likely would've begun to question their existence had they known of a creator race. For the cycle to work, it would have been critical for the Catalyst to remain hidden from everyone. As for the options, as Lily Venus posted, that's not what the Catalyst necessarily created, nor wanted.

If "I embody the collective intelligence of all Reapers" doesnt make him a Reaper or at least a part of them, then what is?

I do believe Starchild/Catalyst even said that the Crucible was what made those options (ignoring Synthesis) possible. He also stated (and I remember this VERY clearly) that the reason he was helping "The" Shephard was due to the fact that he was the first organic to ever step foot there, proving that the cycle was starting to crumble and the final step might be taken.
(As many people have stated, Synthesis appears completely magickal, and I am repulsed by that option.)
So, yeah.

So by allowing Shep to choose he is accepting that he is wrong and there need to be another solution?? then why "The Crusible was detroyed" ending exist?


Why, after admiting that its solution doesnt work AND saying that Synthesis evolution of life and the ideal solution, he would destroy it? isnt this what he always wanted to unite everyone?

 

[Saviordd1]

-snip-

I'll answer in bullets, or points, whatever.
A. I am, despite how much I wish, not omnipotent. Therefor I haven't seen a lot of the arguments nor been in every discussion.
B. As I have said a few times, you opened this thread for yourself. It's not hard to ignore it and if your sick of seeing it then why put yourself in a position to read it. If it annoys you, leave and ignore it and allow people who want to discuss it actually discuss it.
C. Your idea about me purposely baiting people is ridiculous, why would I write out a full opinion and discuss my opinion with others if I was just trying to start shit? Further still why would I put a disclaimer that deliberately begs people to not start some shit if I actually wanted to start shit?

Logic, use it, for the love of god please use it.

The up spin of all this, though, is that the Catalyst is a Reaper. It's entirely possible it lied about a whole bunch of stuff. After all, with high enough EMS, Shepard survives. And, though we don't see any geth, or EDI, in the summary slideshow, we also don't hear any confirmation they died. So it's pretty easy for me to watch the destroy ending, see Shepard and the crew all survive and imagine that the geth at the very least made it too. EDI is an acceptable sacrifice for that ending, much as I grew to like her in 3.

Claiming the Catalyst is a Reaper despite it being blatantly obvious that the Catalyst is not "a Reaper" simply so one can pretend it is unreliable and that there really isn't any price to pay in the Destroy ending.

*facepalm*

This is the message that game developers might get from ending-bashers: if you make a game where victory through sacrifice is a major theme from the beginning to the end, then people will like that theme up until the very last moment when they will hate it just because it spoiled their sunshine-and-flowers happy ending.

But...he is. Basically.

He is a super advanced AI who controls the reapers thinking and actions; that basically makes him one if not in body.

Who's distorting the facts here again?

Excuse me good sir. I was just looking around this thread and i saw the oportunity of asking you something because i believe my ears have become too old to register proper sound.

In this video here, does the Catalyst say something like "I embody the collective intelligence of all Reapers" (3:38). And correct me if i am wrong but, doesnt the Catalyst use alot of the "WE" in his sentences? strange isnt it? he is using plural like there was more than one person....maybe its just my imagination.

I am not seeing your point, maybe that makes me an idiot but I can't for the life of me decipher what point your making because your tip towing around it like a ballerina, make it please.

 

[JellySlimerMan]

Why not? Just because they aren't omnipotent, doesn't mean they can't have a backup plan in place. In fact, the lack of one just makes them look incompetent.

More incompetent than the fact that they didnt pick up The Citadel ASAP when they entered the galaxy to shut down the Relay network (like they always do but this time do it manually like Sovereing did it)? or more incompentent than the fact that only went after The Citadel when TIM told the Reapers about the Crusible?

15:17 onwards.

And then you have to account for the fact that if someone did manage to discover the reapers early nobody would believe them. If people aren't willing to believe the reapers exist after they attack the damn citadel, what difference would this make? They aren't willing to trust a spectre (And a savior of the citidel/galaxy)so what makes you think they'll trust some nobody scientist or treasure hunter?

They may not believe the Reapers but they DO believe in what they saw in the battle of the Citadel. Sovereing destroyed everything without problem, and all Shep needed to do is demostrate that there is more than one of those Squidships to gather all the galaxy under this menace.

The plot had the chance to do this with The Derelict Reaper. TIM even suggested Shepard to even call the Council for help if Shep thinks it is needed. Sadly, the railroady plot magically forced the Reaper shields to conveniently activate when you enter, forcing you to blow up the core to escape but also destroying the Reaper itself.

If you are afraid that showing the Derelict Reaper may end up indoctrinate the Council, there should have been the option to:

1)Use one of those robots that you can ASSUME DIRECT CONTROL on The Arrival DLC. Judging on how these robots can perfectly emulate the pose and manerism that Shepard use when being him/herself, it is safe to assume that these robots can be used to do Scientific Research without being directly exposed to the Reaper itself

2)Research the hive mind biology develop by Shiala, who became immune to indoctrination after The Thorian died. If we only had the chance to actually let Mordin make a vaccine or a method to mass produce anti-indoctrination measures, we could be neard those Reapers without worring about being mind controlled.

 

[JellySlimerMan]

Excuse me good sir. I was just looking around this thread and i saw the oportunity of asking you something because i believe my ears have become too old to register proper sound.

In this video here, does the Catalyst say something like "I embody the collective intelligence of all Reapers" (3:38). And correct me if i am wrong but, doesnt the Catalyst use alot of the "WE" in his sentences? strange isnt it? he is using plural like there was more than one person....maybe its just my imagination.

I am not seeing your point, maybe that makes me an idiot but I can't for the life of me decipher what point your making because your tip towing around it like a ballerina, make it please.

That its just weird how a video with dialog (and even sound) can be not enough evidence for some people *COUGH*Lily Venus*COUGH*. Catalyst IS the Reapers, the embodiment. And if Catalyst had nothing to do with the Reapers, then it wont be using the "WE" in his sentences, referring to himself and the Reapers (who are a part of him)

I am asking you, are we bullshiting our facts?? because that is dialog from the game itself, right? i am asking because it seems so painfully obvious that i cannot conceive how people still deny what is in front of their eyes.

Then again, maybe that is the reason The Indoctrination Theory exist.

 

[JellySlimerMan]

Why not? Just because they aren't omnipotent, doesn't mean they can't have a backup plan in place. In fact, the lack of one just makes them look incompetent.

They did have a backup plan.

Which gets thwarted, either by Shepard or the Alliance (the events of the Arrival DLC).

That is a backup plan that its pretty inferior to just have something more simple, like a purely synthetic robot to receive the signal when the Keepers dont respond to opening the relays. After all, The Protheans may have changed the signal from the Keepers but i doubt they know The Citadel completely and neither does this cycle. The people dont know where even the Keepers come from or where do they send the corpses of dead people on The Citadel, so it seems that having a back up synthetic race from previous cycles for the Reapers to send back up orders and open the relays wouldnt be so far feched.

Alpha was only benefit is that you can use it to jump from Dark Space >> Alpha >> The Citadel directly instead of just jumping from relay to relay until they finally hit The Citadel and shut down the network for easy harvesting.

But that, in the end, is asking too much from these Reapers. They only cared about the Citadel when TIM told them about The Crusible by the endgame (when you invade Cerberus Base), and then send The Citadel to Earth. And yet they forgot to shutdown the relays anyway, specialy the Charon Relay on Sol System that was used by the Sword Fleet to warp in.

They are not incompetent, they are downright stupid by ME3.