Mass Effect 3: It's not the endings, its the final battle (And synthesis)

DioWallachia

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AD-Stu said:
Obviously none of us can predict the future with any real degree of accuracy, but personally I expect it's going to be viewed in the future as a great game that had some serious flaws - in much the same way we view games like KOTOR2 now.
Fun Fact: Obsidian (the people who wrote KOTOR 2, not BW) WANTED to patch the game out of its issues and the rushed ending but Lucas Art didnt want it because who the fuck knows why?

ME3 however doesnt get that excuse because, as we all know, everything there was intended all along, even the endings.
 

DioWallachia

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DarkLordofPancakes said:
For me...Everything in ME3 fell flat on its fucking face:

The main plot itself is one huge Deus ex Machina..."Hey Guys we found the Reaper off button that the VI on illos forgot to mention."

The side quests make skyrims miscellaneous quests look like The Dark Knight, not to mention the journal is a fucking train-wreck

The devs choice to put Jessica Chobot and freddie prince junior in the game makes me contemplate suicide

The combat is inconsistent in difficulty (Cerberus troops that can be killed by a paintbrush but geth primes that take entire sniper rifle clips to the fucking face without dying) and the AI is worse than the holocaust

As for the endings....yeah their bad and it shows how rushed the game was, but its probably the games least serious problem.
Razorfist? is that you? (7:07)

 

TakeyB0y2

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UrinalDook said:
Agreed. Like I said earlier, I can tolerate Control being in the game. I can understand why some would pick it. But to me, it will always be a horrific choice that tramples all over the theme of co-operation just as badly as synthesis does. Its one advantage is that it's very easy to accept that using the Crucible as a massive reactor for power, and the Citadel and relays as a massive transmitter network could 'reprogram' the Reapers. Control, bizarrely, is probably the least 'space magic-y' of all the endings. Erm, if you ignore that Shepard uploads his consciousness by... grabbing a power cable and disintegrating, that is.
I like the control ending because it leaves the galaxy in the most "normal" state. I like to imagine my Shepard used his now uber-increased life-span to leave the galaxy and outright explore the universe. Frankly, I don't think anyone would really trust Shepard-reaper to just kinda hang around the galaxy, and I imagine communication with him would be a little bit dicey.

Soooo yeah, my Shep took control of the reapers and courted them out of the galaxy to explore the universe, because... Why the hell not?
 

Joccaren

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mad825 said:
The game sucked, full stop.

-less overall content
-crappy cameos
-No real point of "choice" existing
-Contrived story/plot
-Half-arsed (ripped-off) ending with no conclusion


Sure, there were some good things but those good things don't really stand against the crap.
Completely correct. The entire game was meh, and I could tell from the second I played the demo. It didn't feel Mass Effect, it felt like your average third person shooter. Dialogue was gone, the story was horribly cartoony - it was almost like a fusion between some over the top anime and Star Wars, which really didn't work, and it really felt like little effort was put into the game. Combat? Yeah, it was alright. Arguably the best its been. Level design? Also fairly good. Not quite great, but a fair site better than the corridors of 2, and the boxes of 1. Music? Its Mass Effect, does this even need an answer? Anything else? From terrible to slightly below average. The worst parts were anything with Kai Leng in them. That was just... bad.

romxxii said:
Because it's like complaining about last year's Superbowl results. It's done, it's been postmortem'd to death by people better than you or I, and frankly, I've run out of the requisite bile to keep my Bioware hate going.
Then don't come into the threads. Coming into the threads to say "Stop talking about this" is your choice, and adds nothing to the conversation at hand. Doesn't matter if the conversation has been done a thousand times before, there's still more some people want to talk about it. I know people who talk about the Original Red Dwarf series, and that's older than Mass Effect by decades. Just because conversations have been had before doesn't mean they can't be had again, and if you don't want to participate in them - don't. Nobody forces you to.

Lily Venus said:
Because of my choices, the krogan have a bright future ahead of them, the quarians and the geth have ended their hostility, the rachni have survived, and countless other people have been saved from death.

But if all those choices don't have a specific impact on the war for and activation of an ancient alien superweapon at the end of the game, then obviously those choices never had any impact.

BioWare shouldn't feel bad for disappointing people like you. You've deliberately adopted a completely illogical mindset disconnected from reality simply so you can have an excuse to complain about the game. They really should not have bothered with people who try their hardest to come up with pathetic reasons to cry about the ending.
Perhaps you missed a key word there; SATISFYING.
Of course, this is an inherently subjective thing, but a picture of a Krogan with a kid doesn't cut it as satisfying for me. It tells me little, and that was only after the extended cut at any rate. Before the extended cut I'd have to be asking for your evidence that the Krogan had a bright future, or that the Rachni did survive - though thankfully Bioware saw reason in that regard.
As for it not being a big deal about those choices not effecting the war, may I ask you: Why did you go around the galaxy gathering all those armies and fleets?
Was it to sit back and have a pre-emptive party whilst Shepard saved the galaxy, or was it so that they could help Shepard save the Galaxy?
The latter? Then they really should have, you know, played a part in saving the galaxy outside of a generic spaceship cutscene that showed 90% Alliance and Turian cruisers anyway. If they don't it kinda defeats the point of you gathering them and making those choices, as it doesn't impact anything with the reason of WHY you made those choices - unless you're metagaming and playing for a high score, in which case you are playing it wrong IMO.

Additionally, you're whole attitude against people who complain about the endings is hypocritical. You attack them for having their interpretation of what happened that supposedly isn't supported by facts, yet you do the same thing, and claim your opinion is fact despite the actual fact that a lot of your 'evidence' is subjective, and two people will see it differently - the whole satisfying thing I started off with as an example.
Now, you haven't spent a lot of time posting here, but you have been here since May last year, and its probably time you learn that The Escapist doesn't stand for insulting other people, and acting hostile towards others, even if you don't actively insult them, will not earn you any support. You state that others should provide arguments rational, logical and real arguments. You need to present your arguments in the same way, and also try to understand your opponents position. Pretty much nobody around here wanted a sunshine and bunnies ending - its why a number of people hate synthesis - so claiming its why everyone hates the ending hardly qualifies as a rational, logical or real statement.
TL;DR: Stop acting so hostile, and try not to break your glass house when you throw stones at others.
 

Bravo 21

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You know, this actually got me thinking, that maybe for the destruction ending, it works best without the Extended Cut. Mostly because it doesn't show any rebuilding, it merely shows an old man speaking to a small child. This suggests, to me, that Shepard's actions have scattered the species of the Galaxy, but in doing so, proved to be it's salvation. He destroyed the Relays, Reapers, and all Synthetics, and as a result, every planet has become isolated. However, he saved Humanity, and as a result, is idolized by the scattered humans throughout the galaxy as they dream of achieving what they lost.
 

SomebodyNowhere

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For me synthesis seemed to make the most sense since I had spent the entire game actively helping joker and edi get together, destroy would have negated that and control just didn't seem to make sense with my shepard.


I was thinking and one thing that did annoy me in London was the appearance of Morinth, pretty much every surviving character from the previous 2 games got some kind of "hey look it's me" fan-service moment and all she really gets is a banshee that's no different from any of the others that happens to have her name.
 

pandorum

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romxxii said:
Because it's like complaining about last year's Superbowl results. It's done, it's been postmortem'd to death by people better than you or I, and frankly, I've run out of the requisite bile to keep my Bioware hate going.
Listen if you do not like get off the forum.
 

pandorum

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SomebodyNowhere said:
For me synthesis seemed to make the most sense since I had spent the entire game actively helping joker and edi get together, destroy would have negated that and control just didn't seem to make sense with my shepard.


I was thinking and one thing that did annoy me in London was the appearance of Morinth, pretty much every surviving character from the previous 2 games got some kind of "hey look it's me" fan-service moment and all she really gets is a banshee that's no different from any of the others that happens to have her name.
Could you elaborate for me why you think synthesis is the right course of action? I'm interested because why would you do something that you stopped Searn and his vision of a machine organic combined race? Destruction makes the most sense as it has al ways been the goal of the games destroy the reapers.
 

JellySlimerMan

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mad825 said:
JellySlimerMan said:
Thou speaks highly of ME3 then.

It's a bad game, nothing more was said. Whine all you want.
Da fuk? wasn't the stupid modified voice of the Colin Moriarty video proof enough that i dont believe 2 shits about this "tecnicality" of ME3 having branching all along?

Should i have ended my post with a " :D " ?
 

King Billi

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JellySlimerMan said:
mad825 said:
JellySlimerMan said:
Thou speaks highly of ME3 then.

It's a bad game, nothing more was said. Whine all you want.
Da fuk? wasn't the stupid modified voice of the Colin Moriarty video proof enough that i dont believe 2 shits about this "tecnicality" of ME3 having branching all along?

Should i have ended my post with a " :D " ?
You should have used a more sarcastic font.
 

mad825

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JellySlimerMan said:
mad825 said:
JellySlimerMan said:
Thou speaks highly of ME3 then.

It's a bad game, nothing more was said. Whine all you want.
Da fuk? wasn't the stupid modified voice of the Colin Moriarty video proof enough that i dont believe 2 shits about this "tecnicality" of ME3 having branching all along?

Should i have ended my post with a " :D " ?
Watched video, found it to be very annoying and stopped watching.

It isn't wise of you to expect people to bother watching Youtube videos...While they are already watching Youtube videos. If you've got something to say then say it in the post.
 

JellySlimerMan

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Lily Venus said:
I imagine that people will continue to see the series as an excellent series and ignore the delusional complaints that trolls desperately want other people to believe. The overwhelming majority of people I've had intelligent conversations about the game with also have no idea where ending-bashers got anything they whine about from.
Mnn... should i tell him about the real intent of that post he replied?? nah. I will just leave this here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ConfirmationBias


The main plot itself is one huge Deus ex Machina..."Hey Guys we found the Reaper off button that the VI on illos forgot to mention."
Hooray, more people who have no clue what a deus ex machina is and only throw the term around because it sounds bad and they want to complain!
Research is your friend!:

It didn't feel Mass Effect, it felt like your average third person shooter.
And if it did, that's your fault for not using powers and melee. If anything, ME3 makes it far easier than the previous games to fight your battles without firing a single shot.
You missed the point of that complain, and you went to miss it even further by saying something like "Its not a shooter!! there are magic powers you can use. Your argument is invalid"

Mass Effect or ME1 was loved for a reason, and it was a success in the first place because people loved how it integrated those RPG elements with modern demand of 3rd person shooters. The series is mostly and RPG since that is what BW did since forever and they do best (or at least they DID). But remove that core experience and what is left is just a shooter with light RPG elements and not even a good one at that. I guess its BW way of saying "Sorry our dear fans, you helped build the Mass Effect brand but we have no use for you now. But, why not console yourself with this female Turian? can you actually fuck this chick with the right choices and PR score?? LOTS OF SPECULATIONS FROM EVERYONE!!"

There is not Deus Ex 1 quality of preparations and design, where the developers anticipated that some people wouldnt have certain skills to progress the plot if it isn't too high in X skill. For that reason, they had just enough ammount of explosives, The Keyring, normal doors without the need of a lockpick to open and password hidden on logs, to let players complete the game even when they put all their points in swimming.

You can even complete the game without using ANYTHING at all but the explosive crates and The Keyring.


Now, does Mass Effect 3 have that even when Deus Ex was one of the inspirations AND the favorite of our "artist" Casey Hudson?? nope.

Take for example the Eva Core boss "fight", If you're playing with a New Game Plus and are using the pistol that fires sticky grenades, this boss fight is borderline Unwinnable, because she runs fast enough to reach you before any of the grenades explode.
With Adept, I'm using the Paladin. The fight starts off with you only having 3 shots in the Paladin, which isn't enough to kill her, meaning you have to reload. You don't have enough time to reload, you die, the autosave takes you back to the beginning of the sequence.

If this obligatory boss fight were well designed (or make your choice of class matter), there would be a way to either ignore it or use an universal method to kill her. Again in Deus Ex, there is a certain person that i am not going to spoil, that is chasing you around and finally gets you. But you can evade that fight or use certain knowledge you gained from a friend to permanently stop this chaser from ever bothering you, PERMANENTLY.

If BW feels like doing zero work, all they had to do is put one of those convenient Turret Sections that they love so much and make sure that the player can get there in time to kill Eva Core. The plot moves foward as usual and its a simple fix. But then again, given how they didnt even fixed the problem that the intro sequence has since March, it seems that we are asking too much apparently.

Before the extended cut I'd have to be asking for your evidence that the Krogan had a bright future, or that the Rachni did survive - though thankfully Bioware saw reason in that regard.
You'd already have the answers to that: your own choices in the game. The Extended Cut is essentially an "Ending for Dummies" that just reiterates information you were already told or tells you things that you can easily infer with the information you're given.
You do realize that just having a mail telling you that the Rachni are fine or betrayed you OFFSCREN doesnt count, right?? that is not what the developer said it would happen, they say that the Rachnni will help you in the last sequence (The Endgame on London) of the game. (14:38)


And the person you are quoting is asking something simple: What happened to those bunch of beloved poligons on the Pre-EC ending? because the explosion of the Relays made absolutely clear that all the galaxies are going to be wiped out by this explotion just like in Arrival DLC of ME2. Even the Catalyst that the Relays will be destroyed after releasing the energy of the Crusible.

Its not an "ending for dummies" when the ending and its choices are completely and fundamentaly broken.

You stopped Saren because he was indoctrinated, the Reapers were merely using him. The entire point of Saren was that he was a victim of the Reapers as well, someone genuinely trying to save the galaxy from death at their hands but who ultimately wound up a slave of the beings he sought to stop.

And saying destroying the Reapers has always been the goal of the series kinda ignores how the entire series makes it quite clear that destroying the Reapers isn't exactly simple.
It isnt simple but given the evidence, it can be done. We are just not given the option to fight conventionally by taking into account all the crap that i already said a thousand times but you never cared to respond (mass producing IFF, Thanix, Klendagon Weapon, Develop Anti-Indoctrination Measures by researching Shiala Hive Mind biology, and so on)
And the Refusal ending is the epithome of this frustration, because we are killed no matter how many war assets we got or how the fleet was destroyed even with all the adventajes we have (or WOULD have if the game actually cared for its own lore)

Here is an example of the Turian winning battles with conventional weapons and new strategies:
http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Codex/The_Reaper_War

The Battle of Palaven:

When Taetrus fell, the turians knew little about the Reapers except that they wanted to enrage the turians. Staying calm, the turians massed force around Palaven, their homeworld. Fleet Admiral Irix Coronati, in what became known as the "Fifteen-Minute Plan," stationed only two carriers, Undaunted and Resolute, near the system's relay. When the Reaper fleet emerged, the carriers launched swarms of unmanned fighters and spy drones. These were quickly destroyed, but the drones transmitted vital data on the Reapers' effective range, fleet composition, and exact location. The turians' other ships then deployed to defend the system in earnest.

Knowing that the Reapers' weapons had a longer effective range than any of his own, Coronati made a short, daring FTL jump--landing his dreadnoughts in the middle of the Reaper fleet. The dreadnoughts then turned to line up their main guns on the Reapers, which also needed to turn to fire on the turians. This ploy used the Reapers' size against them--because they could turn faster, and their concentrated firepower downed several Reaper capital ships.

The Reapers countered instantly. Their destroyers performed a jump of their own to the skies above Palaven, beginning orbital strikes of turian cities. The turians, forced to defend the planet, found themselves in a pitched battle far from the relay, from which emerged a seemingly endless line of Reaper ships. After massive casualties, Coronati ordered retreat.


Sure, the Reapers countered that, just like ANY race (human or alien) fighting in a war would. But this ilustrates how poorly thought was the Reaper design on their own universe. They are so fucking large that they take forever to turn around, but instead of attacking the ships on their back by, you know, using the finger beams that Sovereing had on ME1, they prefer just to turn around and THEN use the main cannon (not the finger beams): (5:16)


So much for "Independent, free of all weakness" when your entire races cant even lift a finger to shoot back.

But i know what you are going to say: "Ah yes, "FACTS". We already dismissed that claim"
 

JellySlimerMan

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mad825 said:
JellySlimerMan said:
mad825 said:
JellySlimerMan said:
Thou speaks highly of ME3 then.

It's a bad game, nothing more was said. Whine all you want.
Da fuk? wasn't the stupid modified voice of the Colin Moriarty video proof enough that i dont believe 2 shits about this "tecnicality" of ME3 having branching all along?

Should i have ended my post with a " :D " ?
Watched video, found it to be very annoying and stopped watching.

It isn't wise of you to expect people to bother watching Youtube videos...While they are already watching Youtube videos. If you've got something to say then say it in the post.
I already say it. I "paraphrase" what a detractor would say about the whiny entitled gamers that say "your choices dont matter". I am still waiting a response from you about this bullshit technicallity that apparently is the thread killer in most instances.

Almost like if that was supposed to make sense. Its like saying "Well, EA is a company that wants to make money, so you cant complain about its dubious practices because that it is what is supposed to do" People expect that such claim would cease all discussion like it was a good thing.

Same here for the "branching narrative" of ME3. Since it "tecnically" does branch just a bit, that somehow makes the problem and the point of "your choices dont have any inpact" moot. But, as someone here already ilustrated, its a bad bussiness practive even for EA, to make inferior products to the competition. And also is not what the developers say it would happen. So, for me, i dont see how that defense is being used over and over when there is nowhere to stand.

What would YOU say if someone pulled that bullshit on you?

EDIT: Of course the video was annoying, that was the point. It basically what Colin Moriarty said but more exagerated.

But if you dont like watching that then how about a nice wall of text?
awtr.ca/long:mass-effect-3-and-the-art-of-criticism-or-why-colin-mor
http://awtr.ca/long:everyone-shut-up-so-i-can-hear-myself-decide-what-art-i
 

SomebodyNowhere

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pandorum said:
SomebodyNowhere said:
For me synthesis seemed to make the most sense since I had spent the entire game actively helping joker and edi get together, destroy would have negated that and control just didn't seem to make sense with my shepard.


I was thinking and one thing that did annoy me in London was the appearance of Morinth, pretty much every surviving character from the previous 2 games got some kind of "hey look it's me" fan-service moment and all she really gets is a banshee that's no different from any of the others that happens to have her name.
Could you elaborate for me why you think synthesis is the right course of action? I'm interested because why would you do something that you stopped Searn and his vision of a machine organic combined race? Destruction makes the most sense as it has al ways been the goal of the games destroy the reapers.
It has been a while since I played through it so some of my memory of what happened is a bit hazy, but I'll do my best to explain.
The only way I can really explain it is that I was really engaged in the Joker/Edi relationship by the end of the third game. I think that their relationship(as unconventional as it might be) was something more tangible to me than "destroying the reaper threat by any means". Maybe deep down I'm more of a romantic than I let myself believe.
In the long run I realized I wasn't willing to sacrifice Edi, the geth and the rest of technology to win what was explained as a constant cycle. To me the best solution was to put an end to the cycle with synthesis.
 

JellySlimerMan

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Lily Venus said:
And plenty of people loved Mass Effect 2, which was an RPG, no matter how much you want to pretend it wasn't.

And plenty of people loved Mass Effect 3, which was an RPG, no matter how much you want to pretend it wasn't. Heck, it had far more RPG elements than the minimalist-RPG that was ME2.

Your rant is based solely on BioWare making a type of game that you don't approve of, yet millions of people clearly did. Just a hissy-fit over BioWare taking their series in a direction that players loved, but a few crybabies on the internet didn't.

Long story short, you're whining not about BioWare making a bad game, but BioWare making a game that you don't approve of. Just like about every other ME3-basher.
Loving how you ignored everything else just to delude yourself with more Confirmantion Bias. No need to focus on fact, just focus on just ONE negative aspect (not several, just one) and its all you need to convince yourself that its just whining. And then you wonder why the moderators are giving you warnings.

By your logic, i can call anything as a fully funtional RPG even when it clearly isnt. Its like saying that "Hotline Miami" is a RPG because of multiple endings or that it lets you choose what mask and weapon you will use in each mission, thus playing a specific role for that mission.

Hell, you could call Call of Duty Black Ops 2 as a RPG by your standard because it has multiple endings:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/VideoGame/CallOfDutyBlackOps2

But we all know that isnt how it works. If you forget already, i mentioned that the RPG on ME1 reasembles more to the RPG that Bioware ALWAYS did in the past. Once again, Baldur's Gate, Knights of The Old Republic, are the mayor reason why people loved Bioware in the first place (and are in bussiness for it). So of course people expect BW to do the same product over and over with improvements on the core experience WITHOUT sacrifing it, in the same way that you go to an Electronic Store to buy a TV. You expect they develop a better TV that its still does the same thing as the previous one but better, but instead they make a product that has less features than the previous one, but its also not a TV, its a Wafer.


I believe that someone in this thread compared this to having Batman using guns and killing people, instead of, you know, doing NEITHER of those things because otherwise he may as well be named The Punisher.

They are both superheroes, sure, but when one of those betrays his own beliefs, what is so special about him then? its now a hypocrite that dresses in a bat suit and fight criminals with guns and its underwear.

But hey, at least they expanded their audience so that same audience can come here and say that MILLIONS of people like it. Therefore, any negative criticism its wrong by the power of El Popolo. Apparently BW (and its new audience) dont recognice the fact that one doesnt need to expand the audience when brand recognition ALONE can give you all the money you want. That is why the next Star Wars movie will sell like hotcakes regardless if even Uwe Boll or J.J Abrams directs it.
 

DarkhoIlow

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Totally agree with your points there. The whole Starchild bullshit had me very disappointed, but in the end I rolled with it.

I didn't find the battle on Earth being that epic, like you said, no krogans charging or Jack's students helping out or anything really took me out.

Regarding the Synthesis ending being proclaimed "best ending". Since when? That completely nullifies the whole point of Shepard's goals from the beginning. Does no one remember Saren? Yeah, that went very well.

Destroy is in my eyes the only canon ending, because this was the whole point from the beginning of the game. I don't agree that the fact after making peace between Quarians and Geth, the Geth will be completely destroyed along with EDI as well (which compared to some I really liked) did bother me, but "sacrificing millions so that billions may live" was the best decision for me.
 
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JellySlimerMan said:

And the person you are quoting is asking something simple: What happened to those bunch of beloved poligons on the Pre-EC ending? because the explosion of the Relays made absolutely clear that all the galaxies are going to be wiped out by this explotion just like in Arrival DLC of ME2. Even the Catalyst that the Relays will be destroyed after releasing the energy of the Crusible.
god dammit, after a year i had finally gotten over the damn game and all it's shitty plot holes/fucking up with the previous games, and you go and post that, and it re awakens all that illogical bullshit i hated when i first played the game. bah, i really hate how it retroactively ruins a ton of shit that you had just played (hell, even making peace between the quarians and geth as a big one)