Mass Grave of Over 200 Children Found at Former Canadian Residential School

tstorm823

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It's not goddamn "speculation" that it wasn't recorded or reported. We're just finding out about it now. You cannot find out about something if you already knew it.

Poor people in incidents of mass-death historically ended up in mass-graves... during plagues and famines in the Middle Ages, or in severely lagging developing countries, or under authoritarian juntas. This was in a relatively wealthy (colonial) Western country in 1890 onwards. In those circumstances, such things pretty much only happened to native groups.
I linked you an article of a mass grave from the 1918 flu pandemic. From a place almost walking distance from where I group up. Those were not natives. How about this:
https://greatwarcentre.com/2017/05/26/forgotten-casualties-canadas-spanish-influenza-epidemic/
"Undertakers did not have enough room to store the bodies of those who had died, and in many cases flu victims were buried in unmarked or mass graves. Walk deep enough into an old city graveyard in Canada and you will likely find unnamed flu victims."
Like, you're not going to convince him.
Or win the argument in the first place. Especially with someone who doesn't understand the point. It's not that a mass unmarked grave of children is ever not bad. It's always bad. But historically, it's not always someone's fault, and especially not always the immediate caregivers' fault. The argument has already shifted from "beating children to death for their religion" to "well, maybe they should have kept better notes and said they were sorry", I'm pretty sure this thread is moving my direction.
 
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Buyetyen

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Or win the argument in the first place. Especially with someone who doesn't understand the point. It's not that a mass unmarked grave of children is ever not bad. It's always bad. But historically, it's not always someone's fault, and especially not always the immediate caregivers' fault. The argument has already shifted from "beating children to death for their religion" to "well, maybe they should have kept better notes and said they were sorry", I'm pretty sure this thread is moving my direction.
Question: Why do you want so badly for no one to be responsible for this?
 

Cheetodust

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I linked you an article of a mass grave from the 1918 flu pandemic. From a place almost walking distance from where I group up. Those were not natives. How about this:
https://greatwarcentre.com/2017/05/26/forgotten-casualties-canadas-spanish-influenza-epidemic/
"Undertakers did not have enough room to store the bodies of those who had died, and in many cases flu victims were buried in unmarked or mass graves. Walk deep enough into an old city graveyard in Canada and you will likely find unnamed flu victims."

Or win the argument in the first place. Especially with someone who doesn't understand the point. It's not that a mass unmarked grave of children is ever not bad. It's always bad. But historically, it's not always someone's fault, and especially not always the immediate caregivers' fault. The argument has already shifted from "beating children to death for their religion" to "well, maybe they should have kept better notes and said they were sorry", I'm pretty sure this thread is moving my direction.
This orange is tasty and my cat likes scratches.
 
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tstorm823

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Question: Why do you want so badly for no one to be responsible for this?
I don't think that nobody is responsible for this. I think the government that took children away and then neglected them, left them malnourished and then studied it as a curiosity, and then threw contagious sick children on top is very much responsible. My issue is that the people who were handed all these children to care for in impossible circumstances are being blamed for the outcome, especially as though it were a deliberate outcome caused by religious bigotry.
 
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crimson5pheonix

It took 6 months to read my title.
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“Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. They may be more likely to go to Heaven yet at the same time likelier to make a Hell of earth. This very kindness stings with intolerable insult. To be "cured" against one's will and cured of states which we may not regard as disease is to be put on a level of those who have not yet reached the age of reason or those who never will; to be classed with infants, imbeciles, and domestic animals.”

-C.S. Lewis, on why tstorm's argument is bullshit (literally, it's amazing he wrote this even before tstorm was born)
 
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Buyetyen

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I don't think that nobody is responsible for this. I think the government that took children away and then neglected them, left them malnourished and then studied it as a curiosity, and then threw contagious sick children on top is very much responsible. My issue is that the people who were handed all these children to care for in impossible circumstances are being blamed for the outcome, especially as though it were a deliberate outcome caused by religious bigotry.
Okay, so why do you want the Catholic church to be innocent in all this? At the very least, they were complicit.
 
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Silvanus

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I linked you an article of a mass grave from the 1918 flu pandemic. From a place almost walking distance from where I group up. Those were not natives. How about this:
https://greatwarcentre.com/2017/05/26/forgotten-casualties-canadas-spanish-influenza-epidemic/
"Undertakers did not have enough room to store the bodies of those who had died, and in many cases flu victims were buried in unmarked or mass graves. Walk deep enough into an old city graveyard in Canada and you will likely find unnamed flu victims."
Right, so you think Canada at the time was in a comparable situation to the 1918 pandemic? The stresses and death toll caused by the 1918 pandemic were many magnitudes higher.

kept better notes and said they were sorry
No, I'm not letting you just downplay what happened in a passing comment. It's not "kept better notes". It's "documented or reported it in any way". It's not "said they were sorry". It's "mentioned it to anyone".
 

tstorm823

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Right, so you think Canada at the time was in a comparable situation to the 1918 pandemic? The stresses and death toll caused by the 1918 pandemic were many magnitudes higher.
Yes, I do think Canada in 1918 was comparable to Canada in 1918. The schools we are talking about were made compulsory in 1894. I'm not just saying the situation was comparable to the 1918 pandemic, I'm saying they were literally concurrent with that pandemic and other epidemics. This mass grave could very well be from literally that pandemic, though I don't believe the graves have any estimated date, as they were just found with ground penetrating radar. They could be newer or older than that, nobody knows yet.
No, I'm not letting you just downplay what happened in a passing comment. It's not "kept better notes". It's "documented or reported it in any way". It's not "said they were sorry". It's "mentioned it to anyone".
You don't know it wasn't mentioned to anyone. There were over 4000 children whose deaths were recorded in these schools. These could very well be among the children whose deaths were recorded and reported. We can't currently know if that's the case, what we're finding out now is that they were buried at this specific spot. The mass grave from the flu in Pennsylvania I linked you was a plot where locals said there were graves, and the people buried there were certainly known to be dead, but there just wasn't a record of where they were buried.
“Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. They may be more likely to go to Heaven yet at the same time likelier to make a Hell of earth. This very kindness stings with intolerable insult. To be "cured" against one's will and cured of states which we may not regard as disease is to be put on a level of those who have not yet reached the age of reason or those who never will; to be classed with infants, imbeciles, and domestic animals.”

-C.S. Lewis, on why tstorm's argument is bullshit (literally, it's amazing he wrote this even before tstorm was born)
I do appreciate the effort of quoting CS Lewis at me. I do like quoting CS Lewis. I'm not sure how that quote applies to my arguments here. Like, if you're applying that to the Canadian government trying to "cure" indigenous people of their culture, that seems appropriate, but I agree that was wrong. I'm not defending that practice. I'm just defending the Catholic missions establishing schools which were later repurposed by the government for bad purposes.
Okay, so why do you want the Catholic church to be innocent in all this? At the very least, they were complicit.
You mean why do I believe them to be mostly innocent? Because basically the same thing played out in the US. Children from reservations taken away to boarding schools, deprived of their parents, frequently abused, and who frequently died of disease. The difference is, in Canada, they dropped the children into existing Catholic Schools, where in the US the government was antagonistic to the Catholic Church and built their own boarding schools, further from their homes and with more military style discipline. The Catholic nature of the schools was not the problem, and the next country south of Canada is the exact counter-example where the same thing was done in spite of the Catholic Schools rather than with them.
 
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crimson5pheonix

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I do appreciate the effort of quoting CS Lewis at me. I do like quoting CS Lewis. I'm not sure how that quote applies to my arguments here. Like, if you're applying that to the Canadian government trying to "cure" indigenous people of their culture, that seems appropriate, but I agree that was wrong. I'm not defending that practice. I'm just defending the Catholic missions establishing schools which were later repurposed by the government for bad purposes.
The Catholics were the ones curing the natives of their culture. They are the Lewis quote. And their spirit lives on today in you, go forth missionary of Christ and fight the real red menace!
 

tstorm823

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The Catholics were the ones curing the natives of their culture. They are the Lewis quote. And their spirit lives on today in you, go forth missionary of Christ and fight the real red menace!
Catholic missionaries have successfully molded themselves into every culture on the planet, including indigenous peoples. People all over the world convert to Catholicism while keeping their language, their artforms, their celebrations, etc. Just with more Jesus. Hell, there are people who self-identify as Catholic Buddhists. Mexico has a lot of Catholics. Italy has a lot of Catholics. Angola has a lot of Catholics. South Korea has a good number of Catholics. The Catholic Church did not erase the cultures of any of these places, but rather supplemented them. The Catholic Church was not trying to replace indigenous cultures, the governments were.
 
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crimson5pheonix

It took 6 months to read my title.
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Catholic missionaries have successfully molded themselves into every culture on the planet, including indigenous peoples. People all over the world convert to Catholicism while keeping their language, their artforms, their celebrations, etc. Just with more Jesus. Hell, there are people who self-identify as Catholic Buddhists. Mexico has a lot of Catholics. Italy has a lot of Catholics. Angola has a lot of Catholics. South Korea has a good number of Catholics. The Catholic Church did not erase the cultures of any of these places, but rather supplemented them. The Catholic Church was not trying to replace indigenous cultures, the governments were.
You're always comedy gold.

The church is literally built on decisions that outlawed other religions. Day 1 of what would become catholicism is suppression of other cultures.
 
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tstorm823

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You're always comedy gold.

The church is literally built on decisions that outlawed other religions. Day 1 of what would become catholicism is suppression of other cultures.
You mean this Day 1? First Church Council: do new converts who aren't Jewish need to adopt our culture. Answer? Nahhhhh.
 

crimson5pheonix

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You mean this Day 1? First Church Council: do new converts who aren't Jewish need to adopt our culture. Answer? Nahhhhh.
I mean that Constantine 1 made christianity the state religion of the Roman empire and Constantine 2 immediately had the old pagan religions outlawed since that's what the christians wanted. This of course was after Constantine 1 pillaged the old temples, forbade building new ones, and the church stamping out all the other forms of christianity (that couldn't defend themselves militarily) at the time.
 
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Silvanus

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Yes, I do think Canada in 1918 was comparable to Canada in 1918. The schools we are talking about were made compulsory in 1894. I'm not just saying the situation was comparable to the 1918 pandemic, I'm saying they were literally concurrent with that pandemic and other epidemics. This mass grave could very well be from literally that pandemic, though I don't believe the graves have any estimated date, as they were just found with ground penetrating radar. They could be newer or older than that, nobody knows yet.
But this is assumption on your part. That's the point. More on the cause of death question below...

You don't know it wasn't mentioned to anyone. There were over 4000 children whose deaths were recorded in these schools. These could very well be among the children whose deaths were recorded and reported. We can't currently know if that's the case, what we're finding out now is that they were buried at this specific spot. The mass grave from the flu in Pennsylvania I linked you was a plot where locals said there were graves, and the people buried there were certainly known to be dead, but there just wasn't a record of where they were buried.
There are official records of 51 deaths among the children at this specific school from 1900 - 1971. So no, it's not really possible for these 215 to be some of the ~4000.

And on a side-note, the 4100 figure is from the Truth and Reconciliation Commission report. And the Commission notes that for about half of those, cause of death was not recorded by the authorities. Among those that were, tuberculosis was the leading cause of death-- killing more than four times as many as Influenza. Influenza also places behind "other unknown illness".

Details which go flatly against the idea that 1) these deaths were recorded; and 2) these deaths were likely a result of the 1918 pandemic.

Let's look at some of the other sections from the Commission's report...

TRC said:
In 1914 a departmental official said “fifty per cent of the children who passed through these schools did not live to benet from the education which they had received therein".
So, four years before the pandemic, half of the children going into the so-called "Indian Residential Schools" system were not making it out alive.

On how deaths were reported...

TRC said:
Prior to 1915, Indian Affairs’ annual reports reproduced a detailed report from each principal that often contained information on the health conditions and the number of students who had died in the previous year. But, after 1915, Indian Affairs stopped publishing principals’ reports. Subsequent reports did not provide information on student deaths in any regularized format. It was not until 1935 that Indian Affairs adopted a formal policy on how deaths at the schools were to be reported and investigated.
TRC said:
In many cases, neither the gender nor the name of a deceased student was recorded
So, we have a gap of 20 years with little-to-no reliable reporting of this, despite the fact that officials in 1914 had already identified that it was happening on a mass scale. And when reporting is done, they frequently leave out even the absolute basics, like somebody's name.

How much more evidence do we need of gross negligence?

TRC said:
As can be seen, until the 1950s, Aboriginal children in residential schools died at a far higher rate than school-aged children in the general population.
Huh, so the stresses of the 1918 pandemic didn't have the same scale of impact on non-native children...

Here's a final section I find particularly telling;

TRC said:
In 1895, Indian agent D. L. Clink decided not to return a runaway boy to the Red Deer, Alberta, industrial school. He wrote, “I felt if I left the boy he would be abused.” Clink wrote that the actions of one teacher “would not be tolerated in a white school for a single day in any part of Canada".
 

Trunkage

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Is that really your position? If a child dies at a school, it should be shut down and people should go to jail? Like, if a kid fell on the stairs and broke their neck, you'd put people in prison? I think you're taking a purely emotional gut reaction here, and not actually thinking things through, particularly in the context of an era with tuberculosis epidemics, before measles had a vaccine, etc.
Yes. 200+ kids fell down the stairs. Sure

This could have been an epidemic. It could have been a Spanish Flu. Got any evidence one way or the other?

This would be my stance for today, and not necessarily back then, if 200 kids died to Covid at one school last, the school should be shut down and at least the principal being held on charges of negilent manslaughter. You know what, I might consider taking back that proviso I said at the start of the paragraph

But then I think a lot of govenors from both sides of the spectrum and Trump should be charged for negligent. The Hancock/Cummings (royal commission?) Hearings are VERY interesting with all the blaming going on. When they both know they are guilty. If you've heard anything about Victoria here in Australia, I think there is bunch of blame that goes to our PM, Premier, Victorian police for refusing to do their job and security companies that had to replace them ad hoc.
 

tstorm823

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But this is assumption on your part. That's the point. More on the cause of death question below...
This is your response to "they could be newer or older, nobody knows yet". I concede that most declarative statements require a certain level of assumption, "nobody knows yet" is pretty close to as far from not assuming as I could get. Imma casually skip past most of this post, since you're arguing against a specific possibility as though is refutes the general point.
So no, it's not really possible for these 215 to be some of the ~4000.
Over 4000. Why do I say over 4000? Because we know there are more that were recorded at the time. They have specific evidence of at least 51 deaths, but that's from knowingly incomplete records. And that isn't "incomplete" as in the schools didn't report the deaths. That's "incomplete" as in "we know that the government purged volumes of funeral records so we don't have them anymore."
Huh, so the stresses of the 1918 pandemic didn't have the same scale of impact on non-native children...
I don't think the higher death rate among children at the schools is just down to one pandemic, but funny enough, the 1918 pandemic was factually much worse on indigenous peoples. Likely for the same reasons that every disease brought to the Americas for centuries after Europeans arrived had a bigger impact on indigenous people.
This could have been an epidemic. It could have been a Spanish Flu. Got any evidence one way or the other?
There are volumes written about children in these schools dying of disease. Not as a defense of the schools, but in condemnation of them. Feel free to google for yourself.
 

Silvanus

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This is your response to "they could be newer or older, nobody knows yet". I concede that most declarative statements require a certain level of assumption, "nobody knows yet" is pretty close to as far from not assuming as I could get. Imma casually skip past most of this post, since you're arguing against a specific possibility as though is refutes the general point.
Yes, that's very convenient. You've skipped right past the point about four times as many deaths being down to tuberculosis than to influenza, which makes your hypothesis pretty rickety. And the bit about half the children in such institutions not making it out alive four years before the 1918 pandemic.

It's quite clear that these schools were entirely failing to protect their charges regardless of the influenza pandemic. So you cannot ascribe it to extraordinary, unavoidable pressure resulting from that pandemic.

Over 4000. Why do I say over 4000? Because we know there are more that were recorded at the time. They have specific evidence of at least 51 deaths, but that's from knowingly incomplete records. And that isn't "incomplete" as in the schools didn't report the deaths. That's "incomplete" as in "we know that the government purged volumes of funeral records so we don't have them anymore."
It's directly stated in the report that schools frequently didn't report the kids' names or genders even when they did report the death. It's directly stated that they had no reliable system in place for reporting for 20 years of their operation. The people who've done the most research into it by far have stated categorically that, yes, a big part of the reason the records are so utterly substandard is down to the poor documentation and reporting of the schools.

You're literally ignoring the evidence put forward by the Commission, at this point.

I don't think the higher death rate among children at the schools is just down to one pandemic, but funny enough, the 1918 pandemic was factually much worse on indigenous peoples. Likely for the same reasons that every disease brought to the Americas for centuries after Europeans arrived had a bigger impact on indigenous people.
Ah, I assume you're implying it's all down to the relative lack of immunity in indigenous communities, given that diseases such as influenza were foreign to them.

You know what else exacerbates the infection rate and mortality of tuberculosis? Poor sanitation & airflow, such as is characteristic of badly-maintained buildings or neglectful institutions.
 

Agema

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Catholic missionaries have successfully molded themselves into every culture on the planet, including indigenous peoples. People all over the world convert to Catholicism while keeping their language, their artforms, their celebrations, etc. Just with more Jesus. Hell, there are people who self-identify as Catholic Buddhists. Mexico has a lot of Catholics. Italy has a lot of Catholics. Angola has a lot of Catholics. South Korea has a good number of Catholics. The Catholic Church did not erase the cultures of any of these places, but rather supplemented them. The Catholic Church was not trying to replace indigenous cultures, the governments were.
Mm. I remember I visted a native Mexican village. They are, I guess, in a way sort of Catholic - in the sense they replaced their old gods with Catholic figures (Jesus, Mary, various saints). So it may be presumed, they were conquered, so their conquerors' "gods" were superior: but they simply kept their old traditions, and assigned the facets of existence (fertility, death, war etc.) once ascribed to their old gods to the new.

Apparently a Catholic priest assigned to them a couple of centuries ago attempted to correct their distinctly, let's say, "idiosyncratic" religion that he considered completely blasphemous... so they killed him. And thereafter the Church left them to it to it.

The Catholic Church and other churches were totally and absolutely out to replace indigenous cultures - at least in the sense of religion. And it has gone further, because I think it would be deeply misguided to not realise that churches have worked hand in hand with colonial and post-colonial governments on a general shared project of "civilising" natives. One may argue that this didn't necessarily come from the Vatican, but it would have come from the local clergy - who were essentially the same class and ethnicity as the colonists, and hand-in-glove with their worldview.
 

tstorm823

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And it has gone further, because I think it would be deeply misguided to not realise that churches have worked hand in hand with colonial and post-colonial governments on a general shared project of "civilising" natives.
Personally, I find it deeply misguided to not distinguish between people who declare themselves the law of the world, believe they're ethnically superior, and go out conquering with those who go out and join every culture on the planet wherever the people may be is to teach people their religion. Seems like a terrifyingly dishonest equivalency. I get it's muddled in times and places where the aggressive invaders declared it God's will that they rule over everyone, but that's really not missionary work.
It's quite clear that these schools were entirely failing to protect their charges regardless of the influenza pandemic. So you cannot ascribe it to extraordinary, unavoidable pressure resulting from that pandemic.
Not only have you honestly failed to make this case, there's still no point in you making it. I never said that all the extraordinary death at the schools was the 1918 pandemic. You're arguing against nobody.