ME3 Indoctrination theory analysis

[Steampunk Viking]

It must be nice to be able to just turn off all critical thinking skills and just react emotionally at everything. You're like a 16 year old girl on her sweet 16 when she doesn't get the car she wanted. Can you just for a second stop whining and try to analyze the ending? Maybe you'll actually contribute something useful to one of these topics for a change.

"Analyze" the ending? No!
I am not wasting my time on such wonky ass shit. The ending is the ending. Bioware cooked up some half-baked shit and served it on a plate. and everyone proceeded to cobble it up like a bunch of pigs.

To see fans go out of their way to make it better by "analyzing" is akin to watching children run repeatedly into a wall.

By analyze you simply mean "spin this until it feels better"

The tweets also mean nothing. There shipping their overpriced DLC. that much is obvious.

Yay, Zeel is back to moan about Bioware!

 

[boag]

As much as I hope it is the indoctrination theory, I can come up with some "Bioware-Quality" answers to some of the points I believe:
-Destroy is Red, Control is Blue:
Simply put, Destroy destroys the Reapers, yes, but it also Destroys EDI and the Geth, as well as any other synthetics out there. Killing your friends and possibly allies to destroy the Reapers is what Cerberus was doing - though it was killing its people to try and control the Reapers - and thus is represented as the Red option: You destroy the Reapers and all the Biological information they hold about the earlier species, you destroy an entire species - they Geth - themselves, and you destroy your friend and, to an extent, saviour: EDI.
Control is blue as it saves everyone and everything. The Reapers still exist, but are under Shepards control. As such, they stop harvesting Organic life, start defending it, and can help rebuild the Mass Relays. In addition, the Citadel is still intact, so the seat of Galactic power still exists for people to live on, and for the Council to govern from. We can assume it is also controlled by Shepard. From there, everyone lives. The biological data of the Species from previous cycles stored within the Reapers survives, the Geth survive, EDI survives. It offers a great chance for the galaxy to rebuild, with everyone maintaining their individuality, but still surviving. In addition, it has the best watch dog fleet to stop trouble from ruining it.
-The "One more Story" line must hint towards after end DLC:
Not necessarily. After that scene, you are told that you can now continue to build on Shepard's legend by continuing to play through the game, and through DLC. What that line implies is basically that the Stargazer tells another story about one of the other missions Shepard went on, so that as you finish up anything you hadn't done before attacking Cronos Station, it is merely the Stargazer telling another story and building on the legend of 'The Shepard'.
-Can someone write a script and ruin it completely in the last 5 minutes:
Yes, if rushed. I believe there was another planned ending, something to do with Dark Matter, but for some reason that didn't go ahead and they shoved this stuff in to work with what they already had and finish the game on time. Don't know what happened there, but I will hunt down and kill whoever forced the script change.
Also note that in DA2, whilst a different group - same publisher, Leliana lived no matter whether you killed her in DA:O, and rather than admit it was a bug, they said that it was perfectly intended that way and that the player didn't necessarily know, but she survived that incident. Even though you decapitated her.
-The child seems to be merely a manifestation of Shepard's fears or W/E, and thus that whole last section is likely in his head:
Whilst the child may be purely in his head (I fully agree with this), the child being in the final section is likely either his perception of the Catalyst, or how the Catalyst chooses to present itself to him.
-The Citadel exploded and Crashed to Earth or W/E, Shepard couldn't have survived that:
An unknown device fired a beam of energy that magically disintegrated all Reapers/Synthesised all Organics with Synthetics (Control is more understandable, but why the Relays blow up in it is beyond me) - Your argument is invalid.

I tend to favor the rumor that they changed the ending in the last few months because of the leaks

 

[Adam Jensen_v1legacy]

It must be nice to be able to just turn off all critical thinking skills and just react emotionally at everything. You're like a 16 year old girl on her sweet 16 when she doesn't get the car she wanted. Can you just for a second stop whining and try to analyze the ending? Maybe you'll actually contribute something useful to one of these topics for a change.

"Analyze" the ending? No!
I am not wasting my time on such wonky ass shit. The ending is the ending. Bioware cooked up some half-baked shit and served it on a plate. and everyone proceeded to cobble it up like a bunch of pigs.

To see fans go out of their way to make it better by "analyzing" is akin to watching children run repeatedly into a wall.

By analyze you simply mean "spin this until it feels better"

The tweets also mean nothing. There shipping their overpriced DLC. that much is obvious.

We are not trying to make it better. Nothing will make it better. We are trying to understand it. If your only goal is to be angry, you can do it somewhere else.

This exchange is over.

 

[Neotericity]

You know what I think guys?

That Bioware is over at their HQ laughing about this ridiculous shit. sipping some fruity cosmos, while they braid eachothers hair.

I can just imagine it

Bioware prick: "they're flipping their shits over the shitty ending we made. What do we do?"
Casey Hudson: "Get a producer to leave a vague convoluted tweet and then strap them with useless overpriced DLC's."
Bioware prick: "will that work?"
Casey Hudson: "Come on? These are Bioware fanboys aren't they? We could piss in their open mouths and they'd find it acceptable."

and then they'd put on their black robes and dance the cha-cha to "Mo-Moneys, Mo-problems" by Notorious B.I.G

HAHAHAHA I'm not sure that's exactly how it went, but pretty funny nonetheless.

OP: I believe that there definitely is weight to this whole indoctrination theory, but that doesn't change the fact that there's no satisfying conclusions whatsoever and that we have to buy dlc to get the full ending. DEVELOPERS FINISH YOUR GAMES! I like expansions, but this is utterly ridiculous and the absolute tipping point for me into all the dlc problems that have plagued this industry.

 

[Adam Jensen_v1legacy]

You know what I think guys?

That Bioware is over at their HQ laughing about this ridiculous shit. sipping some fruity cosmos, while they braid eachothers hair.

I can just imagine it

Bioware prick: "they're flipping their shits over the shitty ending we made. What do we do?"
Casey Hudson: "Get a producer to leave a vague convoluted tweet and then strap them with useless overpriced DLC's."
Bioware prick: "will that work?"
Casey Hudson: "Come on? These are Bioware fanboys aren't they? We could piss in their open mouths and they'd find it acceptable."

and then they'd put on their black robes and dance the cha-cha to "Mo-Moneys, Mo-problems" by Notorious B.I.G

HAHAHAHA I'm not sure that's exactly how it went, but pretty funny nonetheless.

OP: I believe that there definitely is weight to this whole indoctrination theory, but that doesn't change the fact that there's no satisfying conclusions whatsoever and that we have to buy dlc to get the full ending. DEVELOPERS FINISH YOUR GAMES! I like expansions, but this is utterly ridiculous and the absolute tipping point for me into all the dlc problems that have plagued this industry.

According to this info (if it's legit) the DLC will be free: http://i.imgur.com/xjXdX.png
I doubt it, but without hope we may as well be machines, right?

 

[boag]

You know what I think guys?

That Bioware is over at their HQ laughing about this ridiculous shit. sipping some fruity cosmos, while they braid eachothers hair.

I can just imagine it

Bioware prick: "they're flipping their shits over the shitty ending we made. What do we do?"
Casey Hudson: "Get a producer to leave a vague convoluted tweet and then strap them with useless overpriced DLC's."
Bioware prick: "will that work?"
Casey Hudson: "Come on? These are Bioware fanboys aren't they? We could piss in their open mouths and they'd find it acceptable."

and then they'd put on their black robes and dance the cha-cha to "Mo-Moneys, Mo-problems" by Notorious B.I.G

HAHAHAHA I'm not sure that's exactly how it went, but pretty funny nonetheless.

OP: I believe that there definitely is weight to this whole indoctrination theory, but that doesn't change the fact that there's no satisfying conclusions whatsoever and that we have to buy dlc to get the full ending. DEVELOPERS FINISH YOUR GAMES! I like expansions, but this is utterly ridiculous and the absolute tipping point for me into all the dlc problems that have plagued this industry.

According to this info (if it's legit) the DLC will be free: http://i.imgur.com/xjXdX.png
I doubt it, but without hope we may as well be machines, right?

Put a grain of salt in that, its true that /v/ and /vg/ were right about a lot of the leaks, but sometimes a troll is just a troll.

 

[Neotericity]

You know what I think guys?

That Bioware is over at their HQ laughing about this ridiculous shit. sipping some fruity cosmos, while they braid eachothers hair.

I can just imagine it

Bioware prick: "they're flipping their shits over the shitty ending we made. What do we do?"
Casey Hudson: "Get a producer to leave a vague convoluted tweet and then strap them with useless overpriced DLC's."
Bioware prick: "will that work?"
Casey Hudson: "Come on? These are Bioware fanboys aren't they? We could piss in their open mouths and they'd find it acceptable."

and then they'd put on their black robes and dance the cha-cha to "Mo-Moneys, Mo-problems" by Notorious B.I.G

HAHAHAHA I'm not sure that's exactly how it went, but pretty funny nonetheless.

OP: I believe that there definitely is weight to this whole indoctrination theory, but that doesn't change the fact that there's no satisfying conclusions whatsoever and that we have to buy dlc to get the full ending. DEVELOPERS FINISH YOUR GAMES! I like expansions, but this is utterly ridiculous and the absolute tipping point for me into all the dlc problems that have plagued this industry.

According to this info (if it's legit) the DLC will be free: http://i.imgur.com/xjXdX.png
I doubt it, but without hope we may as well be machines, right?

Hope is dead.

 

[Xathos]

Sadly, I don't really like this theory. I mean, yeah it can work, but there isn't exactly a lot of foreshadowing for it in the game to support this (unless of course they add some in with DLC and make the Indoctrination an Ending).

Indoctrination was never some big dream sequence of a battle of wills; it simply made people sway to the Reaper side, and they would almost never know it. Sure, hearing voices or seeing something move on the wall when nothing is there would be probably signs, but having a whole Dream like event happen? Seems to slightly go against what has been established. Characters have shown being able to resist, but they always knew that the Reapers were pressing onto their minds and tried to stop them. Benezia from ME1 and Paul Grayson from the novels are prime examples.

Ugh, I'm having a real hard time trying to get my thoughts down correctly. Basically, a battle of wills against the Reapers Indoctrination or Harbinger himself I don't mind. However, I don't believe thinking it starts right when Harbinger fires his laser at you is the right way to go about it; nor thinking that the Reapers are tricking you with the 3 big choices. I would see it similar to the Morinth situation in ME2, where she tries to convince you to have meld with her and you have to pass Renegade/Paragon checks. Indoctrination would sort of be like that, though considering it is Reapers and not an Asari Vampire, it would probably be different.

I mean, there is nothing that says we can't have a level where we fight manifestations of Harbinger or other Reapers in the confines of our own mind, using the memories of what we have done so far like our choices and reactions to our friends as "ammo" for our weapon as we kick their ass as we work out way to try and make the Crucible work.

Again, sorry if I don't make sense. What I'm trying to say is that while I'm not AGAINST the idea, I just don't think it works given with what's currently been established, as well as what's in ME3 at the present time.

 

[boag]

Sadly, I don't really like this theory. I mean, yeah it can work, but there isn't exactly a lot of foreshadowing for it in the game to support this (unless of course they add some in with DLC and make the Indoctrination an Ending).

Indoctrination was never some big dream sequence of a battle of wills; it simply made people sway to the Reaper side, and they would almost never know it. Sure, hearing voices or seeing something move on the wall when nothing is there would be probably signs, but having a whole Dream like event happen? Seems to slightly go against what has been established. Characters have shown being able to resist, but they always knew that the Reapers were pressing onto their minds and tried to stop them. Benezia from ME1 and Paul Grayson from the novels are prime examples.

Ugh, I'm having a real hard time trying to get my thoughts down correctly. Basically, a battle of wills against the Reapers Indoctrination or Harbinger himself I don't mind. However, I don't believe thinking it starts right when Harbinger fires his laser at you is the right way to go about it; nor thinking that the Reapers are tricking you with the 3 big choices. I would see it similar to the Morinth situation in ME2, where she tries to convince you to have meld with her and you have to pass Renegade/Paragon checks. Indoctrination would sort of be like that, though considering it is Reapers and not an Asari Vampire, it would probably be different.

I mean, there is nothing that says we can't have a level where we fight manifestations of Harbinger or other Reapers in the confines of our own mind, using the memories of what we have done so far like our choices and reactions to our friends as "ammo" for our weapon as we kick their ass as we work out way to try and make the Crucible work.

Again, sorry if I don't make sense. What I'm trying to say is that while I'm not AGAINST the idea, I just don't think it works given with what's currently been established, as well as what's in ME3 at the present time.

Remember the Indoctrinated Salarians in Virmire?

how most of them went nuts?

Remember that scientist assistant you met on Eden Prime, how he was raving about a crazy dream?

Remember the Codex?

Reaper "indoctrination" is an insidious means of corrupting organic minds, "reprogramming" the brain through physical and psychological conditioning using electromagnetic fields, infrasonic and ultrasonic noise, and other subliminal methods. The Reaper's resulting control over the limbic system leaves the victim highly susceptible to its suggestions.

Organics undergoing indoctrination may complain of headaches and buzzing or ringing in their ears. As time passes, they have feelings of "being watched" and hallucinations of "ghostly" presences. Ultimately, the Reaper gains the ability to use the victim's body to amplify its signals, manifesting as "alien" voices in the mind.

Indoctrination can create perfect deep cover agents. A Reaper's "suggestions" can manipulate victims into betraying friends, trusting enemies, or viewing the Reaper itself with superstitious awe. Should a Reaper subvert a well-placed political or military leader, the resulting chaos can bring down nations.

Long-term physical effects of the manipulation are unsustainable, Higher mental functioning decays, ultimately leaving the victim a gibbering animal. Rapid indoctrination is possible, but causes this decay in days or weeks. Slow, patient indoctrination allows the thrall to last for months or years.

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

I just recalled that the "Bringing down the sky" DLC was entirely free and it was just as big as most DLC for ME2 (Lair of the Shadow Broker excluded)... You know, just to fuel the hope of a free DLC to revisit the ending in a proper way.

Captcha: oh yes.

 

[Flailing Escapist]

Michael Gamble- "Hardest. Day. Ever. Seriously, if you people knew all the stuff we are planning...you'd, we'll - hold onto your copy of me3 forever."

Maybe you should've just held on to it until you were finished, no?

 

[GoddyofAus]

You know what I think guys?

That Bioware is over at their HQ laughing about this ridiculous shit. sipping some fruity cosmos, while they braid eachothers hair.

I can just imagine it

Bioware prick: "they're flipping their shits over the shitty ending we made. What do we do?"
Casey Hudson: "Get a producer to leave a vague convoluted tweet and then strap them with useless overpriced DLC's."
Bioware prick: "will that work?"
Casey Hudson: "Come on? These are Bioware fanboys aren't they? We could piss in their open mouths and they'd find it acceptable."

and then they'd put on their black robes and dance the cha-cha to "Mo-Moneys, Mo-problems" by Notorious B.I.G

HAHAHAHA I'm not sure that's exactly how it went, but pretty funny nonetheless.

OP: I believe that there definitely is weight to this whole indoctrination theory, but that doesn't change the fact that there's no satisfying conclusions whatsoever and that we have to buy dlc to get the full ending. DEVELOPERS FINISH YOUR GAMES! I like expansions, but this is utterly ridiculous and the absolute tipping point for me into all the dlc problems that have plagued this industry.

According to this info (if it's legit) the DLC will be free: http://i.imgur.com/xjXdX.png
I doubt it, but without hope we may as well be machines, right?

EA games giving out content for free? AHAHHAHSHAHHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

Micheal Jackson is more likely to rise from the grave than EA games giving us free DLC's.

It's called "Bringing down the Sky", and "The Normandy Crashsite", you stupid insect.

 

[hazabaza1]

The more I think about it the more plausible it seems.
Plus, remember guys. "Even you are partly synthetic". By all accounts, if this was real, Shepard should be dead. Dead dead. But I'unno.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

http://www.thevine.com.au/life/tech/mass-effect-3-and-the-ending-debacle20120314.aspx

When you read all those twitter responses in a row it's pretty easy to let the speculative part of your brain go crazy.

I still say it's a long shot, but the fact I'm willing to entertain the idea at all shows how compelling the whole thing is.

 

[KingParappa]

Sadly, I don't really like this theory. I mean, yeah it can work, but there isn't exactly a lot of foreshadowing for it in the game to support this (unless of course they add some in with DLC and make the Indoctrination an Ending).

Indoctrination was never some big dream sequence of a battle of wills; it simply made people sway to the Reaper side, and they would almost never know it. Sure, hearing voices or seeing something move on the wall when nothing is there would be probably signs, but having a whole Dream like event happen? Seems to slightly go against what has been established. Characters have shown being able to resist, but they always knew that the Reapers were pressing onto their minds and tried to stop them. Benezia from ME1 and Paul Grayson from the novels are prime examples.

Ugh, I'm having a real hard time trying to get my thoughts down correctly. Basically, a battle of wills against the Reapers Indoctrination or Harbinger himself I don't mind. However, I don't believe thinking it starts right when Harbinger fires his laser at you is the right way to go about it; nor thinking that the Reapers are tricking you with the 3 big choices. I would see it similar to the Morinth situation in ME2, where she tries to convince you to have meld with her and you have to pass Renegade/Paragon checks. Indoctrination would sort of be like that, though considering it is Reapers and not an Asari Vampire, it would probably be different.

I mean, there is nothing that says we can't have a level where we fight manifestations of Harbinger or other Reapers in the confines of our own mind, using the memories of what we have done so far like our choices and reactions to our friends as "ammo" for our weapon as we kick their ass as we work out way to try and make the Crucible work.

Again, sorry if I don't make sense. What I'm trying to say is that while I'm not AGAINST the idea, I just don't think it works given with what's currently been established, as well as what's in ME3 at the present time.

Remember the Indoctrinated Salarians in Virmire?

how most of them went nuts?

Remember that scientist assistant you met on Eden Prime, how he was raving about a crazy dream?

Remember the Codex?

Reaper "indoctrination" is an insidious means of corrupting organic minds, "reprogramming" the brain through physical and psychological conditioning using electromagnetic fields, infrasonic and ultrasonic noise, and other subliminal methods. The Reaper's resulting control over the limbic system leaves the victim highly susceptible to its suggestions.

Organics undergoing indoctrination may complain of headaches and buzzing or ringing in their ears. As time passes, they have feelings of "being watched" and hallucinations of "ghostly" presences. Ultimately, the Reaper gains the ability to use the victim's body to amplify its signals, manifesting as "alien" voices in the mind.

Indoctrination can create perfect deep cover agents. A Reaper's "suggestions" can manipulate victims into betraying friends, trusting enemies, or viewing the Reaper itself with superstitious awe. Should a Reaper subvert a well-placed political or military leader, the resulting chaos can bring down nations.

Long-term physical effects of the manipulation are unsustainable, Higher mental functioning decays, ultimately leaving the victim a gibbering animal. Rapid indoctrination is possible, but causes this decay in days or weeks. Slow, patient indoctrination allows the thrall to last for months or years.

There's hints to this all game.

 

[Neonsilver]

The one thing I wonder about the indoctrination theory is how come, if you have a particularly low point score of War Assets, you only get the destroy ending? Unless the Reapers have porridge istead of brains, why would they only offer Shepard the ability to destroy them all? Makes no sense.

I'm not sure but I think that you get either the control or destroy ending depending on what choice you made at the end of ME2, if you have to few War Assets.

 

[Carboncrown]

During the Illusive Man conversation, indoctrination is obviously trying to taking place.

But what keeps me sceptical about this theory is the middle option. You need 2,800 war assets to get it, so it's a "reward" for doing well, but how exactly does it fit in this theory? It's the next best thing to Shepard surviving war assets-wise, so clearly preferable to destroy-but-Shepard-dies.

Might also be that I'm biased. You've got a very clear choise of going the way of the Illusive man or Cpt. Anderson ...until you mention the possibility of just fixing everything with green space-magic. I was very weary of indoctrination and doubting the legitimacy of the control option until that whole symbiosis thing totally sidetracked me. Not that the ending of Beast Machines really fits into the ME universe anyways.