"Medicine" in America

[cthulhuspawn82]

This is the problem with universal health care. Those bills you mentioned don't go away. You don't pay them directly, but they still exist. This is good enough for some because if the sheep don't see the bill then they believe the bill doesn't exist.

So the problem isn't insurance companies a lack of a health care system. The problem is that those guys in the Ambulance, the doctors that treated you, and the hospital administrators, are all a bunch of greedy assholes. If the government wants to help us it should bring the hammer down on all the doctors and Ambulance drivers. Force them to do their job for a set price or go out of business.

Wait. I thought you were a Republican, Libertarian, or other-American-right-winger.

I'm a capitalist with respects to everything with the exception on Healthcare and Education. Capitalism runs off choice, and there is no choice in health care and education, you need those things and therefore cant refuse the high price. I think people who provide every other service should be left well enough alone because the hand of the free market will slap down bad business in those areas. Healthcare and Education, due to their necessity, are immune to the hand of the free market. They need an iron fist to crush them.

 

[Vegosiux]

An ambulance is not a fucking taxi and healthcare is not a money making enterprise. If you lived in a civilised country your healthcare would be paid for in taxes and government funding

"civilised"

http://imgur.com/isgYik4

It's funny how this meme is used to make fun of a claim. Seeing as how in the movie, Dr. Evil basically used air-quotes simply to draw attention to the names he thought up for his contraptions - he never used them ironically (the movie was a parody, of course, but as a character, Dr. Evil used them merely to emphasize the name).

If you want an ironic air-quote scene, use "Ah yes, 'Reapers'" instead.

 

[chikusho]

Poorly veiled strawman aside, the US's method is to give alternatives to those who can't afford basic health care.

On another note, no, you honestly aren't entitled to the 'latest and greatest breakthrough medical miracle' if either you or your backer(typically your insurance company or a charity) can't pay for it, and as long as medical research is still privately funded and medical degrees cost enough to take 20 years to pay off, none of that is going to change.

..

So, given the choice of letting everyone have the same, mediocre coverage and letting some have better than others, I'll take the later.

And why are you assuming universal healthcare is mediocre?
Or that US Healthcare is better than healthcare in other first world countries?
In fact, the US stack up rather shittily to other countries in multiple areas, and has among the highest rate of deaths from
conditions that could have been prevented or treated successfully.
http://www.commonwealthfund.org/Publications/In-the-Literature/2008/Jan/Measuring-the-Health-of-Nations--Updating-an-Earlier-Analysis.aspx

 

[Eggsnham]

This is the problem with universal health care. Those bills you mentioned don't go away. You don't pay them directly, but they still exist. This is good enough for some because if the sheep don't see the bill then they believe the bill doesn't exist.

So the problem isn't insurance companies a lack of a health care system. The problem is that those guys in the Ambulance, the doctors that treated you, and the hospital administrators, are all a bunch of greedy assholes. If the government wants to help us it should bring the hammer down on all the doctors and Ambulance drivers. Force them to do their job for a set price or go out of business.

1. Sure, the bills don't go away, they're just distributed to be paid among the masses. This is a sort "for better or worse" scenario, but generally speaking, I'd say that it's for the better. I'd rather pay higher taxes and receive healthcare that I desperately need than wait until I'm barely alive because of the fear of impending financial burden and pay out the ass for lifesaving treatment that I should have gotten years ago.

2. Insurance companies are businesses; designed to make profit. You're sorely mistake if you think they're there to do anything other than make a profit off of your health.

3. People in the healthcare industry are greedy, yes, just as all human beings are. That said, medicine and medical supplies cost money. Not to mention the fact that nobody would spend the time and money learning to become doctors if all they were paid was a pittance for their hard work. Anybody can become a manual laborer; there is literally no need for an education if you're going to dig ditches. However, if you've spent hundreds of thousands of dollars and 10+ years of your life studying medicine, you're going to want to be paid more than the guy digging ditches.

Not to mention the fact that our taxes largely pay for things such as weapons designed to kill others. If we cut back on the ridiculous funding our ridiculously huge military, we would easily be able to pay for things that, you know, actually benefit mankind.

 

[Dark Knifer]

This was an interesting read. I come from australia so I don't know much about this but it seems that how good the USA's healthcare is depends on the insurance they have. My country has universal healthcare but we still do health insurance and stuff like that for non-emergency stuff.

Whatever works best for the country I suppose, universal care or otherwise.

 

[Dirty Hipsters]

This was an interesting read. I come from australia so I don't know much about this but it seems that how good the USA's healthcare is depends on the insurance they have. My country has universal healthcare but we still do health insurance and stuff like that for non-emergency stuff.

Whatever works best for the country I suppose, universal care or otherwise.

I would say that a lot of people in this thread are misrepresenting how the American health care system works.

I grant you that it is largely dependent on what insurance you have, and where you live, that tend to be deciding factors in how much cost you bear, but a lot of the people in this thread make it out like if you don't have health insurance you'll go bankrupt getting a few stitches or having to fix a broken arm, none of which is true.

The thing is, if you don't have health insurance and you feel that you are too poor to be able to afford medical care, that doesn't mean that you're screwed and have absolutely no way of getting the care you need. There are free clinics in the US for those who need medical care and cannot afford to pay. These usually aren't ideal, they tend to be understaffed so going to one could mean having to wait to be seen by a doctor for a day or more, but they're free and they are fine if you need treatment that isn't extremely urgent (kind of how healthcare tends to be in countries with universal health care, lots of waiting). If you do need immediate medical attention a hospital legally cannot turn you away, regardless of your ability to pay.

All in all the biggest problem with health care in the US is the fact that insurance companies can get away with not covering someone with preexisting conditions. This isn't so much a failure of the healthcare system as it is a failure of government regulation. That's all that the US really needs. We don't need a single payer system or universal healthcare, what we need is more government regulation of health insurance companies so that they can't screw people over on loopholes and technicalities.

 

[ten.to.ten]

There are free clinics in the US for those who need medical care and cannot afford to pay. These usually aren't ideal, they tend to be understaffed so going to one could mean having to wait to be seen by a doctor for a day or more, but they're free and they are fine if you need treatment that isn't extremely urgent (kind of how healthcare tends to be in countries with universal health care, lots of waiting). If you do need immediate medical attention a hospital legally cannot turn you away, regardless of your ability to pay.

I live in a single payer country. My last experience dealing with the healthcare system was a couple of months ago when I woke up with a killer ear infection. Without having made an appointment I walked to the clinic a couple of blocks away and within an hour I'd seen the doctor and gotten some antibiotics, the total cost being about $5. In terms of seeing a specialist, the longest I've ever had to wait was a week, and I've always gotten same-day results when I've needed blood tests or x-rays or things like that.

Purely anecotally of course, but my American mother-in-law, back when she did have private isurance, still had to wait months sometimes to see specialists or have elective proceedures done.

I've never understood where Americans get this myth from that universal healthcare means long waiting times and private healthcare means no waiting times.

I wouldn't complain, The United States is doing pretty damn well with healthcare compared to the rest of the third world.

I can't remember what show I stole that joke off.

"America's health care system is second only to Japan... Canada, Sweden, Great Britain... well, all of Europe. But you can thank your lucky stars we don't live in Paraguay!" - Homer Simpson

 

[Ryotknife]

There are free clinics in the US for those who need medical care and cannot afford to pay. These usually aren't ideal, they tend to be understaffed so going to one could mean having to wait to be seen by a doctor for a day or more, but they're free and they are fine if you need treatment that isn't extremely urgent (kind of how healthcare tends to be in countries with universal health care, lots of waiting). If you do need immediate medical attention a hospital legally cannot turn you away, regardless of your ability to pay.

I live in a single payer country. My last experience dealing with the healthcare system was a couple of months ago when I woke up with a killer ear infection. Without having made an appointment I walked to the clinic a couple of blocks away and within an hour I'd seen the doctor and gotten some antibiotics, the total cost being about $5. In terms of seeing a specialist, the longest I've ever had to wait was a week, and I've always gotten same-day results when I've needed blood tests or x-rays or things like that.

Purely anecotally of course, but my American mother-in-law, back when she did have private isurance, still had to wait months sometimes to see specialists or have elective proceedures done.

I've never understood where Americans get this myth from that universal healthcare means long waiting times and private healthcare means no waiting times.

I wouldn't complain, The United States is doing pretty damn well with healthcare compared to the rest of the third world.

I can't remember what show I stole that joke off.

"America's health care system is second only to Japan... Canada, Sweden, Great Britain... well, all of Europe. But you can thank your lucky stars we don't live in Paraguay!" - Homer Simpson

cant speak for everyone, but most of the stories I hear about with universal healthcare and long waits comes from our neighbor to the north.

"well, that's not fair! That is only one country"

Yea well, the average American has little to no exposure to people from EU.

 

[Dark Knifer]

This was an interesting read. I come from australia so I don't know much about this but it seems that how good the USA's healthcare is depends on the insurance they have. My country has universal healthcare but we still do health insurance and stuff like that for non-emergency stuff.

Whatever works best for the country I suppose, universal care or otherwise.

I would say that a lot of people in this thread are misrepresenting how the American health care system works.

I grant you that it is largely dependent on what insurance you have, and where you live, that tend to be deciding factors in how much cost you bear, but a lot of the people in this thread make it out like if you don't have health insurance you'll go bankrupt getting a few stitches or having to fix a broken arm, none of which is true.

The thing is, if you don't have health insurance and you feel that you are too poor to be able to afford medical care, that doesn't mean that you're screwed and have absolutely no way of getting the care you need. There are free clinics in the US for those who need medical care and cannot afford to pay. These usually aren't ideal, they tend to be understaffed so going to one could mean having to wait to be seen by a doctor for a day or more, but they're free and they are fine if you need treatment that isn't extremely urgent (kind of how healthcare tends to be in countries with universal health care, lots of waiting). If you do need immediate medical attention a hospital legally cannot turn you away, regardless of your ability to pay.

All in all the biggest problem with health care in the US is the fact that insurance companies can get away with not covering someone with preexisting conditions. This isn't so much a failure of the healthcare system as it is a failure of government regulation. That's all that the US really needs. We don't need a single payer system or universal healthcare, what we need is more government regulation of health insurance companies so that they can't screw people over on loopholes and technicalities.

Yeah I wouldn't be too surprised if it was insurance companies fucking it up for people. But system doesn't sound anywhere near as bad as some people have said to me.

Though I'll still probably make jokes about it for fun.

 

[ten.to.ten]

cant speak for everyone, but most of the stories I hear about with universal healthcare and long waits comes from our neighbor to the north.

"well, that's not fair! That is only one country"

Yea well, the average American has little to no exposure to people from EU.

First of all, I'm not from the EU either, in fact lots of countries in Asia and the Pacific, like Japan, Singapore, Hong Kong, Taiwan, South Korea, Australia and New Zealand have universal healthcare too.

Secondly, it's unwise to pooh-pooh universal healthcare because you're confusing one model in one country with the concept of universal healthcare as a whole. If America doesn't move to a "Medicare for all" system like Australia or Taiwan, it could still achieve universal healthcare through another method, like taking the basic idea of Obamacare and improving it.

 

[Ryotknife]

cant speak for everyone, but most of the stories I hear about with universal healthcare and long waits comes from our neighbor to the north.

"well, that's not fair! That is only one country"

Yea well, the average American has little to no exposure to people from EU.

First of all, I'm not from the EU either, in fact lots of countries in Asia and the Pacific, like Japan, Singapore, Hong Kong, Taiwan, South Korea, Australia and New Zealand have universal healthcare too.

Secondly, it's unwise to pooh-pooh universal healthcare because you're confusing one model in one country with the concept of universal healthcare as a whole. If America doesn't move to a "Medicare for all" system like Australia or Taiwan, it could still achieve universal healthcare through another method, like taking the basic idea of Obamacare and improving it.

that's nice...we have little contact with them too. Don't know if you have noticed, but we have a big ass ocean on one side, and a big ass ocean on the other.

As this thread has mentioned, no we can not move towards a universal healthcare without fixing a few hard issues first. Of course, if these pre-req issues were solved so that we could begin to implement UH, chances are we will no longer need to implement UH.

A roundbout way of saying that many of the aspects that gimp our current system will also gimp universal healthcare.

 

[Danial]

cant speak for everyone, but most of the stories I hear about with universal healthcare and long waits comes from our neighbor to the north.

"well, that's not fair! That is only one country"

Yea well, the average American has little to no exposure to people from EU.

First of all, I'm not from the EU either, in fact lots of countries in Asia and the Pacific, like Japan, Singapore, Hong Kong, Taiwan, South Korea, Australia and New Zealand have universal healthcare too.

Secondly, it's unwise to pooh-pooh universal healthcare because you're confusing one model in one country with the concept of universal healthcare as a whole. If America doesn't move to a "Medicare for all" system like Australia or Taiwan, it could still achieve universal healthcare through another method, like taking the basic idea of Obamacare and improving it.

that's nice...we have little contact with them too. Don't know if you have noticed, but we have a big ass ocean on one side, and a big ass ocean on the other.

Can't help but notice I'm still talking to you over said 'Big ass ocean', apparently we have some kind of 'interconnected network of information' we can access these days, and i hear the average american has free access to it as well! No idea what it's called mind.

Sorry but that point REALLY doesn't stand. 20 years ago it would but these days, no not at all.

 

[Vault Citizen]

This is the problem with universal health care. Those bills you mentioned don't go away. You don't pay them directly, but they still exist. This is good enough for some because if the sheep don't see the bill then they believe the bill doesn't exist.

So the problem isn't

Yes and no. On he home hand the NHS is paid for with taxes and so people pay for it way. However not all taxes go towards the NHS and every citizen, not just those who pay taxes can use its services without paying directly for them. If by sme tragedy I become completely broke I will still have access to the services offered by the NHS. The same couldn't be said of a system where medicine is a business.

 

[Godhead]

This thread makes me very sad face. What part of free market equals competition equals reduction in price has been forgotten?

It's called price fixing. It's when two or more businesses agree to set the prices for competing products.

OT: I don't think it's as simple as just cutting military funds in America.

 

[RhombusHatesYou]

I think we need to ask ourselves if there's really a problem laughing at Americans who die from lack of medical care.

 

[StevieC]

America had 40 years of spindoctoring to purge that mindset out of the public. The non-mentally handicapped way of looking at Healthcare would be seeing it as a fire department or a police force, a public enterprise for the greater good.

Nowadays, public healthcare is just seen as communism and the people that hate the concept are the ones that stand to benefit from it the most.

Speaking as an autistic adult, I find your use of the term "non-mentally handicapped" insulting. Not just for how ableist it is, but because even IF that prejudice were reasonable (which it's not), even THEN it STILL is self-evident to anyone and everyone that it makes SENSE to treat healthcare like firefighting, a police force, or like another thing: Ever heard of the NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE? You know, the people who issue tornado watches and warnings? That's done by the government, yet I don't hear any of those people living in bible-belt trailer-parks complaining about that being "communism"!

 

[Ryotknife]

America had 40 years of spindoctoring to purge that mindset out of the public. The non-mentally handicapped way of looking at Healthcare would be seeing it as a fire department or a police force, a public enterprise for the greater good.

Nowadays, public healthcare is just seen as communism and the people that hate the concept are the ones that stand to benefit from it the most.

Speaking as an autistic adult, I find your use of the term "non-mentally handicapped" insulting. Not just for how ableist it is, but because even IF that prejudice were reasonable (which it's not), even THEN it STILL is self-evident to anyone and everyone that it makes SENSE to treat healthcare like firefighting, a police force, or like another thing: Ever heard of the NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE? You know, the people who issue tornado watches and warnings? That's done by the government, yet I don't hear any of those people living in bible-belt trailer-parks complaining about that being "communism"!

The National Weather Service costs under a billion dollars, universal healthcare will cost....well lets just say significantly more. Probably comparable to our military budget

Also, you are not winning any points by bringing up the police force as there are many areas in which you are completely on your own if you are in trouble, and many of them are experiencing budget cuts.

 

[generals3]

The National Weather Service costs under a billion dollars, universal healthcare will cost....well lets just say significantly more. Probably comparable to our military budget

Also, you are not winning any points by bringing up the police force as there are many areas in which you are completely on your own if you are in trouble, and many of them are experiencing budget cuts.

While a universal healthcare system will cost the state more it will probably cost America less. The great thing about a universal healthcare system is that govt tends to also police pricing abuses. That's why France manages to have a healthcare which costs half per capita than the US while being much cheaper, having more beds per inhabitants and more physicians per inhabitants. It's basically superior on every single aspect.

 

[Seydaman]

So the problem isn't insurance companies a lack of a health care system. The problem is that those guys in the Ambulance, the doctors that treated you, and the hospital administrators, are all a bunch of greedy assholes. If the government wants to help us it should bring the hammer down on all the doctors and Ambulance drivers. Force them to do their job for a set price or go out of business.

Or the government step in and pay everyones healthcare with tax payers money. Sure you pay more tax but you know that when you go to hospital you dont have to pay a penny to get healthcare

The relevant question is this, why don't you pay for your healthcare out of your own pocket. You don't because you cant afford it. In America at least, the cost of healthcare is so high that nobody can afford to pay it. Nobody can afford to spend $2000 to sleep in a hospital bed for one night.

This is why universal healthcare wont work, at least for America. How is the government supposed to use our money to pay for something we cant afford? If their isn't enough money in our pockets to pay the bill then how can the government, which gets all of its money from our pockets, afford to pay the bill?

Shit. Well, I can imagine it like this, the government would force hospitals, doctors etc, to either take the smaller paycheck, or get nothing at all. I can imagine that the bare minimum cost to continue operating (With current standards) is far less than what we actually pay, (including a reasonable paycheck).

Yea, I bet there will be some "I can no longer afford my allotted three cars a month! I've had to reduce to only one brand new Mercedes a month!" protest, but I think that's worth it.

Edit: Also cut our retarded overarmed and armored military. Seriously, we're not in any major wars we do not need 389 fully functional aircraft carriers, it's such a fucking waste.

 

[Verigan]

First of all, I should let you all know I'm not interested in debating, so I don't intend to respond to any replies. I just feel that the libertarian position on the issue has not been properly represented in this thread. Please don't make the mistake of thinking your existing beliefs are infallible. If I present information or ideas you've never heard of or seen explained well, research it properly. Whether you find you agree with me or not, you owe that much to yourself.

Libertarianism in America, as you likely know it from TV, is a philosophy of "every man for himself." That's totally wrong. Real libertarian philosophy is based on the non-aggression principle. It is an opposition to coercion and the use of force, except for defensive purposes. That includes coercion by government when it attempts to do things that would be unacceptable for private citizens to do, such as taking someone else's money without consent (taxation) and attacking or imprisoning those who have not harmed others.

It is the belief of libertarians that the free market, when self-regulated by its active participants, provides better solutions to problems than any government could hope to achieve. In the case of health care, we have observed how government intervention has caused prices to increase and the quality of services to decrease at every stage.

In the years before Medicare and Medicaid were introduced, poor people were admitted to hospitals and granted care across the US at the same rate as they are now. However, back then, it was accepted and understood that not everyone was capable of paying for their care. You know what doctors did about it back then? They did it for free.

After adjusting for inflation, prices for health care services were still only a fraction of what they are now. Government intervention and the rise of government-sponsored health insurance (HMOs are the best example) caused a systemic increase in costs because it complicated the system and added a lot of new bureaucrats to the mix who all had to be paid for every person's health care. Insurance companies are also prohibited from selling their products across state lines, which keeps the biggest (and most well-connected) providers from being undercut by more efficient competitors.

On top of that, government deals with pharmaceutical companies stifle competition and allow those businesses to run roughshod over their customers, putting unsafe products on the market at exorbitant prices, which often cause side effects that require even more expensive drugs to suppress.

There are a lot more instances of government corruption and collusion with private enterprise in the health care industry for mutual gain that you should be aware of, but I'll just start to wrap up now. If I got your attention, hopefully you'll do some more reading on your own.

Governments are not impartial entities with the well-being of all their subjects at heart. They are composed of individuals, and those individuals, by the very nature of all those who seek power over others, are easily corruptible. Such people work for their own interests, and that generally boils down to solidifying, consolidating, and/or expanding their power.

Conversely, the people actually involved in the medical industry care about their patients. Very few doctors would want to let a patient go untreated, and if it were in their power to help poor people, they would. The problem is the layers of bureaucracy that stand between those in need and the charitable souls who want nothing more than to provide for those needs.

As a libertarian, I believe people want to be good, and if given the chance, most of us would be.