"Medicine" in America

[Daverson]

I don't see how anyone can justify a for-profit health service. It's like a for-profit police force, or a for-profit fire service.

"Sure, we'd love to find and arrest the person who burnt your house down, unfortunately your security insurance doesn't cover that."

Though... Actually, if we take that to it's logical extreme...

"Sure, we'd love to fend off the Cuban invasion, unfortunately your state's defence insurance doesn't cover that". BAM. World's best healthcare is now yours, for free. Problem solved.

 

[BlackStar42]

I don't see how anyone can justify a for-profit health service. It's like a for-profit police force, or a for-profit fire service.

"Sure, we'd love to find and arrest the person who burnt your house down, unfortunately your security insurance doesn't cover that."

Though... Actually, if we take that to it's logical extreme...

"Sure, we'd love to fend off the Cuban invasion, unfortunately your state's defence insurance doesn't cover that". BAM. World's best healthcare is now yours, for free. Problem solved.

I believe the Romans had a similar system.

"Oh, your house is on fire? Give me all your stuff and I'll put it out for you."

America's insanely expensive healthcare is one reason why I'd never want to live there. I like not being made bankrupt for health problems entirely out of my control.

 

[Grouchy Imp_v1legacy]

So I've learned two things today:

1: I suck at this "being an adult". Leave for a haircut this morning. 5 hours, a trip to the hospital and 6 stitches later, still no haircut.

2: "Medicine" must be code for "profiteering racket". Because in the ambulance on my way to the hospital, the technician is offering me a paid yearly ambulance subscription service so I don't have to pay to use the ambulance if I need it.

I'll give that a moment to sink in. I'm sitting here with some my meat hanging out - covered, but still not where it should be (I look a bit like uncooked chicken on the inside apparently) - and they're trying to sell me something. I know I'm going to have to pay out the ass for the Emergency Room, the Doctor, the Stitches and the Care........and now she is reminding that the very needed trip to the hospital isn't even free.

If we're not even getting people to the hospital without charging them............

Move to a civilised country where surgeons don't wield a scalpel in one hand and a begging bowl in the other. /joke

Ok, seriously - here in the UK healthcare is part of everyday life. A person's National Insurance is taken out of their pay check before the money even hits their account so it's nothing we need to worry about. Just like the fire service or the police these things are paid for by taxes and if you need attention from any emergency service you get it, free of charge. That's not to say our system is without it's faults - the NHS is almost criminally underfunded, but this is because our government diverts NI funds from the NHS for other projects (most likely their second homes in the country) but that's the fault of government policy, not a problem inherent in the system.

I've never figured out why Americans hold the police and fire service in such heroic regard when they are paid for by taxes but view a healthcare system funded by the same means to be a horrendous idea. By the tone of your post, you're coming to that same conclusion.

Crap, this post is becoming more serious than I had originally intended.

Err, why not Zoidberg?

(V)(;,,(V)

 

[Albino Boo]

I think you need to try to murder at least one ethnicity, and then if anyone complains, get defensive and so you were only doing it ironically, so you are above criticism.

Too much work. I preferred it when people called me a goth. All I had to do to live up to that was wear black occasionally.

...Seriously, I got asked a couple of hours ago why I always wear black. As I was standing in the hall of my building wearing a blue faux-tie-dye Hendrix shirt and blue lounge pants.

I think I've wander off the topic, which was...Why the stars shine at night!

No, wait.

Health care!

Last year the the non profit NHS made record provision for medical negligence of £22.7 billion out of annual budget of £108 billion.

And? I didn't say that people weren't going to sue. I didn't say that it wasn't going to cost. I'm

To have a free at the point of use health service you would need to shut down the entire defense budget and some other departments as well.

Or, you know...cost control.

The developed countries with a free a the point of use health care system spend between 10-12% of GDP on it. Taking the average of 11% of GDP that gives the US cost of running a free at the point of use health service at $1.2 trillion annually or roughly twice the US defence budget. You might be able to save as much $100 billion by cost control but not $600 billion. There is no management system in world that can cut cost by roughly the same size as the entire Belgian economy.

 

[Demongeneral109]

Honestly, I find the concept of Medicine and medical attention being a "Business" fucking abhorrent. You have to be a real Asshole to charge someone a ridiculous amount of money after saving their life.

Why? It is a business. No different whatsoever from lawyer, CEO or teacher.

Besides, you can imagine what's going through those doctors heads: "You deserve this. You went through 6 years of school so you could earn shitloads. You were reading books when the rest of your highschool class was getting drunk and laid. You're smarter than everyone else... etc etc"

He's saying that medical care shouldn't be considered a business, but something that exists to help others, not a profitable enterprise, but a sacrifice to help those in need. We don't pay teachers a fortune to place our very futures on their backs, why doctors for managing our present? If you say its because they have a tougher job, then BS, raise teacher salaries and standards to match, then we might get some achievers out of schools instead of unmotivated people with no drive to excel

 

[Areloch]

Honestly, I find the concept of Medicine and medical attention being a "Business" fucking abhorrent. You have to be a real Asshole to charge someone a ridiculous amount of money after saving their life.

Why? It is a business. No different whatsoever from lawyer, CEO or teacher.

Besides, you can imagine what's going through those doctors heads: "You deserve this. You went through 6 years of school so you could earn shitloads. You were reading books when the rest of your highschool class was getting drunk and laid. You're smarter than everyone else... etc etc"

He's saying that medical care shouldn't be considered a business, but something that exists to help others, not a profitable enterprise, but a sacrifice to help those in need. We don't pay teachers a fortune to place our very futures on their backs, why doctors for managing our present? If you say its because they have a tougher job, then BS, raise teacher salaries and standards to match, then we might get some achievers out of schools instead of unmotivated people with no drive to excel

...really?

No, seriously? Really?

You really want me to hold in the same regard someone who's job is to merely pass along and re-iterate consumable knowledge(knowledge where, if - sorry, when - faulty, I can get from a multitude of other sources, oftentimes better presented and more accurate) to a person who went through half a decade or more of highly specialized training in order to keep someone alive? I respect teachers for what they do, but they do NOT operate to the same standards or requirements as a good doctor.

 

[Filiecs]

A huge problem with our current system is that low-income patients without insurance can go to the Emergency Room for a bloody nose and don't need to pay a dime (the hospital just stops sending bills).

A much better system would be if the government funding was spent on giving everyone a doctor/health specialist to go to at a dramatically reduced price (like $0-$50 dollars per visit, the government would pay most of the bill) and those doctors focused on prevention and maintaining patient health.
This by itself would dramatically reduce the amount of expenses from unneeded emergency services as well as giving doctors/surgeons more time to care for ACTUAL emergencies.
Funding could also be used to reduce the prices of Urgent Care Clinics as well.

I believe that special treatment costs should stay high and almost always NEED to be paid eventually.
EMS should still be required to help those in need but I think that they should be a lot more strict on demanding repayment for their services, like school loans.

Insurance companies could focus on covering emergencies and special treatment instead of the doctors that they cover now. Insurance companies would also not have to worry so much about pre-existing conditions, smoking, drinking, or drug use because people would have doctors that they can go to in order to learn how to improve their lifestyle and prevent emergencies. As a result of everyone having doctors, hopefully insurance costs would go down.

Most Emergency Room visits can be prevented by simply visiting a doctor. If everyone had a doctor, millions of dollars in unnecessary emergency medical expenses could be saved and everyone would benefit.

Not everyone, however, needs Emergency Treatment and that is what most people have a problem with when it comes to paying for Universal Healthcare. If taxes didn't/rarely paid for EMS or special treatment then people wouldn't have a problem, especially so if everyone has the information necessary to prevent most medical issues from their doctor.

 

[TheRealCJ]

So the problem isn't insurance companies a lack of a health care system. The problem is that those guys in the Ambulance, the doctors that treated you, and the hospital administrators, are all a bunch of greedy assholes. If the government wants to help us it should bring the hammer down on all the doctors and Ambulance drivers. Force them to do their job for a set price or go out of business.

Or the government step in and pay everyones healthcare with tax payers money. Sure you pay more tax but you know that when you go to hospital you dont have to pay a penny to get healthcare

The relevant question is this, why don't you pay for your healthcare out of your own pocket. You don't because you cant afford it. In America at least, the cost of healthcare is so high that nobody can afford to pay it. Nobody can afford to spend $2000 to sleep in a hospital bed for one night.

This is why universal healthcare wont work, at least for America. How is the government supposed to use our money to pay for something we cant afford? If their isn't enough money in our pockets to pay the bill then how can the government, which gets all of its money from our pockets, afford to pay the bill?

Er... one person has to pay 2000 dollars for a bed, or 200 million people each pay 5 dollars?

Let's use an example: Phone bills. Yes you pay for them every month, but what hurts more, 700 dollars for a new phone immediately, or ten dollars a month in repayments for two years? Which is easier to pay, even though you're paying MORE in the long run?

 

[TheRealCJ]

This is the problem with universal health care. Those bills you mentioned don't go away. You don't pay them directly, but they still exist. This is good enough for some because if the sheep don't see the bill then they believe the bill doesn't exist.

So the problem isn't insurance companies a lack of a health care system. The problem is that those guys in the Ambulance, the doctors that treated you, and the hospital administrators, are all a bunch of greedy assholes. If the government wants to help us it should bring the hammer down on all the doctors and Ambulance drivers. Force them to do their job for a set price or go out of business.

What you just described is universal healthcare. Not all universal healthcare follows the single payer method where everyone is a member of the government's public insurer which is funded by taxes. Most countries that do have universal healthcare use a system which consists of strict price controls and regulations on private insurers and hospitals, combined with private insurance being mandatory for each person with the government paying for the insurance of those who can't afford it, Kind of like Obamacare plus Medicaid/Medicare on steroids.

America's not so special that universal healthcare couldn't work if the government actually tried, instead of half-assing it like the current Obamacare.

Well, to be fair, they HAVE to half-ass it or else it would be rejected outright. The American populace as a collective apparently has Aspergers; Any change, no matter how much better it is for them, is met with fear and resistance.

 

[BlackStar42]

Honestly, I find the concept of Medicine and medical attention being a "Business" fucking abhorrent. You have to be a real Asshole to charge someone a ridiculous amount of money after saving their life.

Why? It is a business. No different whatsoever from lawyer, CEO or teacher.

Besides, you can imagine what's going through those doctors heads: "You deserve this. You went through 6 years of school so you could earn shitloads. You were reading books when the rest of your highschool class was getting drunk and laid. You're smarter than everyone else... etc etc"

He's saying that medical care shouldn't be considered a business, but something that exists to help others, not a profitable enterprise, but a sacrifice to help those in need. We don't pay teachers a fortune to place our very futures on their backs, why doctors for managing our present? If you say its because they have a tougher job, then BS, raise teacher salaries and standards to match, then we might get some achievers out of schools instead of unmotivated people with no drive to excel

...really?

No, seriously? Really?

You really want me to hold in the same regard someone who's job is to merely pass along and re-iterate consumable knowledge(knowledge where, if - sorry, when - faulty, I can get from a multitude of other sources, oftentimes better presented and more accurate) to a person who went through half a decade or more of highly specialized training in order to keep someone alive? I respect teachers for what they do, but they do NOT operate to the same standards or requirements as a good doctor.

Knowledge=/= skill. Any fool can look things up on the Internet, butw ould you trust a self-taught surgeon to operate on a tumour, or a self-taught lawyer to represent someone at trial? Don't get me wrong, the Internet is an invaluable tool for learning, but teachers are very, VERY important.

 

[major_chaos]

My family can barely handle the taxes we have now, so I won't support socialized medicine unless the government can somehow come up with the money for it without raising taxes(protip: not gonna happen). Also it would be nice if it could happen without doctors taking a paycut, seeing as they have some of the most expensive schooling and the worst jobs I kinda think they deserve to make good money. Additionally after hearing someone tell the story of how their grandmother died on a waiting list for a procedure (not a transplant) I don't really trust government run healthcare to be prompt.

 

[Irridium]

If many Americans weren't so damn gung ho about paying less taxes, then it wouldn't be an issue.

It's 2013 and they still have no universal healthcare. It boggles the mind that a first world country lacks such a system.

Here's a thought.

You know that obscenely huge military they have? You know, the big one.

Take like 5% of that budget, and there's your universal healthcare. No extra taxes, just the money redistributed elsewhere.

You should probably look after the people in your own country before making something to kill the populace of another.

But... but then the terrorists will win! And if we take 5% off of the military's budget, what's to stop them from taking another 5% and maybe re-jiggering our joke of an education system a bit?!?! Are you saying you'd rather have free healthcare and better schools over an obscenely huge military budget?!?!?!?!?!?! YOU DIRTY FUCKING SOCIALIST HIPPIE LIBERAL SCUM!!

Christ, this country sometimes...

 

[Areloch]

Knowledge=/= skill. Any fool can look things up on the Internet, butw ould you trust a self-taught surgeon to operate on a tumour, or a self-taught lawyer to represent someone at trial? Don't get me wrong, the Internet is an invaluable tool for learning, but teachers are very, VERY important.

I should probably clarify my stance on this.
Yes, teachers are very important. As I said, I respect teachers for what they do. However, a majority of teachers are going to be teaching specific, re-iterative knowledge. Math class, for example. Exactly nothing stops you from going online, googling around, and learning how to do any given form of math.

Something like structural engineering, medical professors or the like, which need to be AT LEAST as versed as the people I was talking about being in a different tier from your average high school teacher are a totally different story, I agree completely.

Like everything, there's shades. As much as I respect your standard grade school/high school teachers and the like(and I really liked a lot of the ones I had), what they can provide - even at the top of their game - is distinctly apart from what a brain surgeon will do on a regular basis, or(as you validly point out) the people that train them will do.

On a whole, however, the service that doctors provide will largely warrant better pay and benefits compared to teachers.

 

[Ruley]

America needs to take another look at Healthcare. I mean, maybe its a cultural thing, but i find it obscene to be charging for medical services. For things you have no control of - falling off a ladder, catching a virus, etc... Are you seriously asking for a credit card before you board the ambulance?

Here in the UK, we pay our taxes and healthcare is all covered by the NHS. Its just natural in this country. Hence my mention of it possibly being a cultural thing?

America puts so much money into everything else, as already has been mentioned, the military. If they really want to protect their people, surely America would bolster its healthcare for all?

 

[Ren3004]

Even though I suck at economics (I just can't figure out how that gentleman who e-mailed me can use the ?1000 I gave him to get his own money back), this is the way I see things:

1) Healthcare is incredibly expensive. So expensive that most middle-class people probably couldn't afford a trip to the ER that involves getting a CT scan, or a surgery (last I heard, just keeping the OR functioning cost about ?1000 a day).

2) Unlike consoles, cars, or fancy clothes, healthcare isn't something you can really choose not to get. If you're sick, you either get care, or risk having a serious disease that kills you.

3) Anyone can get sick, and you can't predict when or where. Poor people possibly get sick more often and have less resources to get treatment.

So, here's what most countries do. Everyone pays a little money for healthcare, less that what treatments actually cost. That way, if you get sick, you know that you can get care and won't be left dying on the sidewalk because you forgot your credit card.

"But", I hear you say with my superhuman hearing and ability to ask imaginary questions, "What if I don't get sick? Then I'm just giving my hard-earned money for some other schmuck who couldn't even stay healthy! He may be a murderer, or a sex offender, or even... *shudder* an illegal immigrant!"
Well, sir, congratulations on not getting sick this year! Now go ahead and try to do it for 30 to 80 more years, depending on the life expectancy in your country. If you think that's easy, please refer to point 3) above.
When you do get sick, I'm guessing you won't want other people judging whether or not you deserve to get healthcare.

And here's what the US did. Instead of paying a little more taxes, you have to pay for healthcare out of your pocket. Since most people can't afford that, private companies built smaller versions of the system above, called insurance. A lot of people pay for health insurance every year even if they don't get sick, so that if they they do, the company will have enough money to pay for them. This would be great if companies didn't overcharge or outright deny coverage for people who don't have a lot of money, or already have some disease. You'll recognize these groups as those who will most likely need healthcare. So, those rich, healthy folks have access to great healthcare (until they actually need it, when the insurance company will probably start charging them more) while that poor family has no money for a 6-month long TB treatment and all those elderly with diabetes and hypertension won't even get aspirin if they have a heart attack. It's better than having to pay for everything out of your pocket, but not by much.

Now, I don't know about you, but as a patient, I'd rather know that I can get medical treatment when I need to. As a doctor, I'd rather not have to resort to trickery to help people or refuse them treatment outright. Even if it means giving a little part of my money every year that other people use to not die.

 

[Norithics]

America needs to take another look at Healthcare. I mean, maybe its a cultural thing, but i find it obscene to be charging for medical services. For things you have no control of - falling off a ladder, catching a virus, etc... Are you seriously asking for a credit card before you board the ambulance?

It's a cultural problem, entirely. We don't have object permanence when it comes to money- if we see it going away now, we assume it'll never come back. Similarly, if we don't spend it now, we assume it'll go away anyway, because from the cradle to the grave we have a million different people trying to bleed us dry. So what comes out of that is an insular and paranoid misunderstanding about how public services work. When Jethro is told we'd like to take a little money from him in taxes, he screams that this will mean he can't buy medicine for his daughter- not realizing that he could never buy medicine for his daughter, and only paying that little bit into the system can give him the ability to give her that medicine.

Because that's what government does. It leverages against anarchy as best it can.

Captcha: "Ready when you need it." Exactly.

 

[Blood Brain Barrier]

Honestly, I find the concept of Medicine and medical attention being a "Business" fucking abhorrent. You have to be a real Asshole to charge someone a ridiculous amount of money after saving their life.

Why? It is a business. No different whatsoever from lawyer, CEO or teacher.

Besides, you can imagine what's going through those doctors heads: "You deserve this. You went through 6 years of school so you could earn shitloads. You were reading books when the rest of your highschool class was getting drunk and laid. You're smarter than everyone else... etc etc"

He's saying that medical care shouldn't be considered a business, but something that exists to help others, not a profitable enterprise, but a sacrifice to help those in need. We don't pay teachers a fortune to place our very futures on their backs, why doctors for managing our present? If you say its because they have a tougher job, then BS, raise teacher salaries and standards to match, then we might get some achievers out of schools instead of unmotivated people with no drive to excel

Who is "we"? Doctors in communist countries get paid the same as teachers. It's nothing to do with helping people - all jobs help people, from drug dealer to politician. Otherwise they wouldn't be jobs.

The idea that a doctor is somehow helping people more than some other profession is revolting to me. There's no charity or sacrifice there - never was and never will be. They may not realize this at the time they are in the process of qualifying, but they do 10 or 20 years later, so they see nothing wrong with earning obscene fees. And there is nothing wrong with it. It's just supply and demand.

 

[Macgyvercas]

If many Americans weren't so damn gung ho about paying less taxes, then it wouldn't be an issue.

It's 2013 and they still have no universal healthcare. It boggles the mind that a first world country lacks such a system.

Here's a thought.

You know that obscenely huge military they have? You know, the big one.

Take like 5% of that budget, and there's your universal healthcare. No extra taxes, just the money redistributed elsewhere.

You should probably look after the people in your own country before making something to kill the populace of another.

Daystar, we spend more on defense than the next 26 countries on the list combined, 24 of which are allies. We could cut the defense budget in half and be fine.

Also, according to some people I went to school with, apparently believing that we should focus on healthcare and education rather than socking all spare money into the military makes me a filthy liberal. If so...fucking guilty as charged.

And guess who would be hurt first if we cut our military spending: our allies. The first thing to go if we were to significantly scale back our military would be our foreign bases which not only bring in a ton of money for the local economies, but also provide de facto defense, meaning more of the ally's resources are freed up for other things. I'm thinking we're in a time where the last one doesn't matter as much in some places like Germany due to the peaceful status quo and the ally country wouldn't feel the need to divert funds to fill the hole left by American forces. Besides the votes people in congress get by pretending to be pro-military and filling up its budget every year, they really don't want to deal with the political fallout that would ensue if we started pulling up stakes in other countries, no matter how much I wish they'd bite the bullet and do it.

Personally, I don't understand why we feel the need to be the world's police force when all we primarily should be concerned about is our own borders.

 

[Ryotknife]

If many Americans weren't so damn gung ho about paying less taxes, then it wouldn't be an issue.

It's 2013 and they still have no universal healthcare. It boggles the mind that a first world country lacks such a system.

Here's a thought.

You know that obscenely huge military they have? You know, the big one.

Take like 5% of that budget, and there's your universal healthcare. No extra taxes, just the money redistributed elsewhere.

You should probably look after the people in your own country before making something to kill the populace of another.

Daystar, we spend more on defense than the next 26 countries on the list combined, 24 of which are allies. We could cut the defense budget in half and be fine.

Also, according to some people I went to school with, apparently believing that we should focus on healthcare and education rather than socking all spare money into the military makes me a filthy liberal. If so...fucking guilty as charged.

And guess who would be hurt first if we cut our military spending: our allies. The first thing to go if we were to significantly scale back our military would be our foreign bases which not only bring in a ton of money for the local economies, but also provide de facto defense, meaning more of the ally's resources are freed up for other things. I'm thinking we're in a time where the last one doesn't matter as much in some places like Germany due to the peaceful status quo and the ally country wouldn't feel the need to divert funds to fill the hole left by American forces. Besides the votes people in congress get by pretending to be pro-military and filling up its budget every year, they really don't want to deal with the political fallout that would ensue if we started pulling up stakes in other countries, no matter how much I wish they'd bite the bullet and do it.

Personally, I don't understand why we feel the need to be the world's police force when all we primarily should be concerned about is our own borders.

Because we are the best candidate for the job? If the US pulled back into its borders, who will keep China in check? Australia? Not bloody likely. China would then probably invade Taiwan and Japan seeing how its still holding a massive grudge against both (not to mention lucrative targets who wont be able to put up much of a fight).

Not to mention we are probably the only country that can have an army in any location in the world within a week. The UK is the only other country who might be able to fit the bill. Even the French in the Mali intervention needed the US help to get there.

Hey, I would not mind if the UN was actually capable of intervening in conflicts without mostly relying on the US or UK.

 

[BOOM headshot65]

Part of it is we don't have set prices. A surgery in San Francisco can cost 5 times what it would cost in Alabama, even if both doctors are equally trained and skilled.

Which is something that I was going to point out myself. Her in my home state of Kansas, some of these surguries that everyone complains about being so expensive are less than $5,000 if you are really unlucky. And my brother has had to get stiches and such plenty of times because of sports and cutting himself with knives because he was being a F**king moron, and they have never been more than $500, tops. Hardly breaking the bank. It all depends on where you live. If you live in San Francisco, where it cost about $4,000 for an apartment that is barely bigger than a jail-cell (seriously), then you can expect a hospital bill of $100,000, because the cost of living is so high, where as if you live in a state like Kansas, were everything is Dirt Cheap and that $4,000 could pay the morgage on a McMansion, you can expect low cost(on everything actually).