Message to all anime viewers(NSFW): Cross Ange Tenshi to Ryu no Rondo

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

snip

Izangai-san, where is your post regarding Garo the Animation? It clearly shows a pregnant woman being burned alive, clear indications of women people raped and prostitution. I only mention that cause I am sure you will ignore the guy who was ripped in half by horses and the men who are stabbed multiple times. I await your post about another anime to warn people about. ^_^

I didn't hear about Garo the Animation until now and I didn't see anything about it until today so I didn't comment on it

Once again, sexual themes are not the issue, its the framing and delivery. Looking at ANN and any brief mention of the rape was from the person who was most vocal about Cross Ange who stated that "it was men pulling up their pants while walking out of a barn of shackled women". I have not seen the show but if the camera doesn't linger on breasts or ass like Cross Ange and if the show's scenes before and after that point are the same tone, I will have no problem. I might call the show indulgent in it's violence given your description but if the show doesn't just throw it in for the sake of violence and actually has a point then I can't make a complete call.

So, assumed rape, that didn't happen, is bad because it shows an ass but the aftermath of actual rape having clothes on is ok? Now I really question your logic.

Both acts are of fairly equal brutality: one having the fall of royalty via harsh physical and the other rape but anime is a visual media. If both scenes were written in a book with no images, I would get fairly the same reaction of disgust and hate but when you put that to image, how you show the scene is key to determining what the audience sees. In other words, if you focus on one thing during the shot, the audence is expected to focus on that. In Cross Ange, the shot was focused on the ass and panties which is a odd choice given what is supoosed to be a brutal scene so the scene becomes undercut in its execution. In Garo, if the shot focuses on the men walking away, we are expected to focus on what they have done.

It would be like if in a strangling during a movie how you would get a different reaction if the shot was on the breast or the face. Where the shot is focused can enhance or diminish the mood. In Cross Ange's case, it completely invalidates any attachment.

 

[burnout02urza]

I was going to skip this show at first, but now I think it's worth a second look.

I find the MORAL PANIC to be hilarious. What, was someone 'triggered' by this? Is it time to circle the wagons to coddle hurt feelings? Someone's mentioned that Garo: The Carved Seal of Flames has implied rape, torture, mutilation and the burning of a pregnant woman at the stake - Most of the episode involves a long sex scene with a female demon - but no complaints, so far.

Cross Ange is a fanservice mecha show. It's not like you don't know what you're getting into when watching it.

I'm just glad that Japan doesn't feel the urge to bow to the wave of political correctedness, the way the West seems so eager to cave in to it.

edit: Seriously, why does Rebecca Silverman still has a job? All she does is to whine that anime is sexist.

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

I was going to skip this show at first, but now I think it's worth a second look.

I find the MORAL PANIC to be hilarious. What, was someone 'triggered' by this? Is it time to circle the wagons to coddle hurt feelings? Someone's mentioned that Garo: The Carved Seal of Flames has implied rape, torture, mutilation and the burning of a pregnant woman at the stake - Most of the episode involves a long sex scene with a female demon - but no complaints, so far.

Cross Ange is a fanservice mecha show. It's not like you don't know what you're getting into when watching it.

I'm just glad that Japan doesn't feel the urge to bow to the wave of political correctedness, the way the West seems so eager to cave in to it.

Once again, my issue is the framing so the fact that we hang for a few secs on the panties and ass while in a scene that we are supposed to be shocked by really makes the tone inconsistent. Combined with the following scene with the suite full of naked lesbians and the former scene of Ange and her mother talking while in rather revealing night garb and the tonal dissonance is there and trust me, I'm not the only one who said that.

As for the edit: she probably has a Journalism degree, watched a lot of shows and can proabably back her reasons in writing. Also from what I see, it's mostly just a person tired of fanservice and stupid scenes involving women and I will have to concede that even though I like the human body, it still can get really stupid when it comes to fanservcie. Need I remind you of the matrix breasts from High School of The Dead

 

[SAMAS]

Having seen the episode/scene in question, while I agree the scene was done to convey Rape, I feel that it was done to invoke Ange's violation and loss, rather than titillating the audience. At least, that was the impression I walked away with.

Perhaps, but the framing of the scenes before and after it were what killed it for me and many others

Weren't the scene before her mother's death, and the scene after the closing credits?

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

Having seen the episode/scene in question, while I agree the scene was done to convey Rape, I feel that it was done to invoke Ange's violation and loss, rather than titillating the audience. At least, that was the impression I walked away with.

Perhaps, but the framing of the scenes before and after it were what killed it for me and many others

Weren't the scene before her mother's death, and the scene after the closing credits?

The lesbian scene with the suite was right after the torture with it happening seconds after in the beginning of the credits and the other scene was before the mothers death but still sets the tone of the show in a way.

If you don't have the dissonance, that's you but i had it and so did the critics it seems

 

[SAMAS]

Having seen the episode/scene in question, while I agree the scene was done to convey Rape, I feel that it was done to invoke Ange's violation and loss, rather than titillating the audience. At least, that was the impression I walked away with.

Perhaps, but the framing of the scenes before and after it were what killed it for me and many others

Weren't the scene before her mother's death, and the scene after the closing credits?

The lesbian scene with the suite was right after the torture with it happening seconds after in the beginning of the credits and the other scene was before the mothers death but still sets the tone of the show in a way.

If you don't have the dissonance, that's you but i had it and so did the critics it seems

There's no doubt the show as a whole is probably gonna be fanservice-heavy. The first minute of the show told us that.

But that particular scene was definitely all about breaking Ange down, and not in the Hentai way.

 

[CrystalShadow]

Spoiler: stuff...

I love how all the people defending this have anime avatars and their defense is usually "I've seen worse, so it's ok!" Priceless.

Anyway, I find "pornographic rape" to be pretty sickening and encourage people that enjoy it to question their choice of entertainment. Is it worse than the West's gore fetish? Hmm... inherently no, but socially yes. Rape porn is almost exclusively violence against women, so when pornographic rape is normalised in culture it can influence some very unhealthy attitudes towards women (and towards men, from the woman's perspective). It creates a divide between the genders. Gore in the West tends to be gender indiscriminate, so even when it becomes normalised in culture it isn't so divisive. There's still something to be said about a culture that glorifies blowing each other apart though, no doubt.

You can't tell anyone to question their choice of entertainment. People can enjoy whatever they want for their fictional/fantasy needs - as long as it's not harming anyone and as long as it's law-abiding.

It's silly to bring up "unhealthy attitudes" (or as some others say, "the image of women") because those things are very much up to the individual to make up their mind on what attitude/image they want to hold. There are countless influencing factors everywhere (positive and negative) and it's up to individuals to decide what they want to enjoy or dislike.

Feel free to criticize all media, but don't tell anyone to stop (or question) what they enjoy in their fictional/fantasy entertainment. It amounts to judging people.

I agree with you for the most part, but the thing is, these 'personal tastes' can leak into reality, especially when people don't seem to understand that fiction and reality can be quite different...

I've had the odd horrible thing done to me with little regard for what it's actually like to be on the recieving end of it, only to later find that the person doing these things had been watching a lot of porn, and had blindly assumed that stuff is fine to do in reality when it really, absolutely isn't.

I really loathe the idea of judging people ln what they enjoy as entertainment. (Even if it were something like lolicon or the like, I don't particularly want to judge a person on that).
But personal experience tells me some people don't understand what is real and what isn't, and drag their weird fantasies into reality, with horrific results.

Pornography in particular seems to confuse people.
It needs to be understood most porn is staged, and 'fake' (yes, it's real sex, but there is a lot of editing and acting involved that makes it look like something it actually isn't).
Because it's fake, it hides the fact that many of these acts are highly unpleasant, and really shouldn't be copied...
Yet some people don't realise this, and try to force these acts on their partners, and are then surprised their partners don't like it...

As long as you can maintain the seperation between fiction and reality, it's usually fine...
But when someone loses track of that, bad things start to happen.

Well to be fair it sounds like you ran into a complete idiot. Porn had little to do with it :/

If some people "lose track" between reality and fiction it's 99% their fault. As I said, it comes down to the individual.

You're right of course. I guess my point if any was that there was a clear relationship between what this person hqd been watching, and what they were trying to do.
Ultimately the real problem is their lack of understanding of fiction vs reality, but clearly, what they did wqs related to what they watched...

Still... That's no reason to be judgemental about people's interests in general...

 

[Travis Fischer]

I'm still confused. It's just some stupid fan service in a show I probably wouldn't watch anyway.

Why is this being brought to my attention?

 

[Karadalis]

I'm still confused. It's just some stupid fan service in a show I probably wouldn't watch anyway.

Why is this being brought to my attention?

Because!

Errr... Because it will influence you in a negative way if you watch it?

Because Izanagi was offended and thus decided that it is not worth anyones time and no one should watch it? And if you watch it.. what the hell is wrong with you?

Look Izanagi didnt liked that this mecha anime had (maybe to much) fanservice in it, and came here to make a big deal out of it. Completly ignoring the fact that there IS an audience for that kind of stuff and that this anime was not made for him or to cater to his tastes and standards... and that kinda ruffled his feathers.

Cause aparantly Izanagis standards should be everyones standards... hence his apeal that no one should watch this "crap"

 

[Travis Fischer]

It just that, after two days of agonizing over this, it seems likely that Izanagi has probably spent more time thinking about this scene than anybody else on the planet, including the people that made it.

Seems counter productive.

 

[Otakun]

It just that, after two days of agonizing over this, it seems likely that Izanagi has probably spent more time thinking about this scene than anybody else on the planet, including the people that made it.

Seems counter productive.

Well, it's even more counter productive since he wanted people to not watch the show based on this one scene but by making it such a big deal has only gotten more people to watch it who would have over looked the anime as a simple fanservice anime.

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

I'm still confused. It's just some stupid fan service in a show I probably wouldn't watch anyway.

Why is this being brought to my attention?

Because!

Errr... Because it will influence you in a negative way if you watch it?

Because Izanagi was offended and thus decided that it is not worth anyones time and no one should watch it? And if you watch it.. what the hell is wrong with you?

Look Izanagi didnt liked that this mecha anime had (maybe to much) fanservice in it, and came here to make a big deal out of it. Completly ignoring the fact that there IS an audience for that kind of stuff and that this anime was not made for him or to cater to his tastes and standards... and that kinda ruffled his feathers.

Cause aparantly Izanagis standards should be everyones standards... hence his apeal that no one should watch this "crap"

Could we please not resort to accusations

I brought it to attention because I thought the scene was disturbing and not well written and that people should try to avoid it because it was highly exploitative.

Since then, I've calmed down and realized that the show itself would be better if the scene was shot different, that the show outside of that scene was fanservice laden but well animated and produced and that there is an audience for this sort of thing but I still stand by my opinion that that one scene in combination with the tone of scenes before and after it aren't exactly the most well written or comfortable

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

It just that, after two days of agonizing over this, it seems likely that Izanagi has probably spent more time thinking about this scene than anybody else on the planet, including the people that made it.

Seems counter productive.

Well, it's even more counter productive since he wanted people to not watch the show based on this one scene but by making it such a big deal has only gotten more people to watch it who would have over looked the anime as a simple fanservice anime.

Yeah a simple fanservice anime with a torture scene of a very dissonant tone in it.

Remind me again, why it shouldn't be brought up that the show is dissonant in tone and that it could be a sign of bad writing?

 

[burnout02urza]

Because most people watching the show are in fact watching it for the fanservice and the angst.

Also, this feels like another pointless attempt at a moral panic/the universal search to find things offensive.

 

[SquallTheBlade]

Remind me again, why it shouldn't be brought up that the show is dissonant in tone and that it could be a sign of bad writing?

I don't think bad writing is any reason to say that "You shouldn't watch this. It has bad writing in it".

 

[the doom cannon]

If you don't like it, you have every right not to watch it. People get so sensationalist about things now it's kinda ridiculous

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

Because most people watching the show are in fact watching it for the fanservice and the angst.

Also, this feels like another pointless attempt at a moral panic/the universal search to find things offensive.

So we are basically reducing Sunrise, one of the older vanguards of anime and the people behind Gundam into just another studio with superficial angst and gratuitous fanservice?

Also, be aware that people before me were stating their issues with it before I even came along. And I've seen it and have to agree that the scene isn't exactly tasteful or well framed.

 

[piketheguy]

Oh boy.... I wounder how would Elfin Lied's First 10 Minutes get interpreted now. Oh well will just keep my eye on this one cause I got enough animes this season.

EDIT: Ok I started the show(its on CR) and well I found out its by Sunrise them pulling something questionable in one of the episodes is not beyond them. I mean you don't have to look that far to see Valvere the liberator about one year ago HAD A FUCKING RAPE SCENE. So yeah I am not surprised but digging this mecha design. So yeah guys nothing beyound WTF Japan and people who don't get it whining again about something that they should be used to by now or just not watch..

WTF Japan is not an excuse for me or many other people. Japan is not some abnormality in culture; the way it treats rape is almost the same as America does which is to say "you better be damn careful not to be tasteless". Also, if Sunrise has done this before, WHY WOULD THEY DO IT AGAIN, ITS GOING TO BACKFIRE.

A few more points

-Why go through the rectum to operate on the spine? There are several inches between the rectum and the very tip of the spine and that's not taking into account the twisting nature of the lower intestine and the thickness of the intestine wall. Also, why the lower spine? If you want good neurological signals, the back of the neck or the brain are better signal receiving areas.

-Why is there a scene of naked women fondling each other after the credits? I know that being stuck what is essentially a prison with other women around you will lead to circumstances but why did it have to be on screen? Is it to show how society has changed like in Brave New World or Shin Sekai Yori because I am very doubtful of that.

-What is so intrinsic to women that only they are norma? Is it the extra x chromosome because that would imply recessive traits which would be eliminated by now given how long these programs have probably been going.

-Why would the brother mate with his own sister? History has shown that repeated intermixing of family members like this leads to deformities and also make it easy for the families to die off. If it's just for "i'm evil", then there are better ways of doing it than sodding inbreeding.

This show is not worth making excuses, it's just tasteless. it's spiteful and hateful and deserves to be in the garbage.

as someone who lives in Japan, yeah WTF Japan is an excuse, rape is not a big deal here unless it is in an international discussion at which point they run damage control to protect international relationships. Japanese culture cares two shits for women. Young girls are routinely kidnapped and filmed in rape porn which is released at major pornography distributors. Since family honor would be slighted if the girl admitted to being raped, they do not report it. The Japanese people (as well as a good portion of the world, just in case you havent ever lived in a country outside the US) does NOT care about women, its all media bullshit to ensure positive relations with countries who do respect women. The US and most of civilized Europe are the ONLY countries who care about gender equality as a people. Look at India for a good example of people who international advocate womens rights yet ignore it internally.

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

Oh boy.... I wounder how would Elfin Lied's First 10 Minutes get interpreted now. Oh well will just keep my eye on this one cause I got enough animes this season.

EDIT: Ok I started the show(its on CR) and well I found out its by Sunrise them pulling something questionable in one of the episodes is not beyond them. I mean you don't have to look that far to see Valvere the liberator about one year ago HAD A FUCKING RAPE SCENE. So yeah I am not surprised but digging this mecha design. So yeah guys nothing beyound WTF Japan and people who don't get it whining again about something that they should be used to by now or just not watch..

WTF Japan is not an excuse for me or many other people. Japan is not some abnormality in culture; the way it treats rape is almost the same as America does which is to say "you better be damn careful not to be tasteless". Also, if Sunrise has done this before, WHY WOULD THEY DO IT AGAIN, ITS GOING TO BACKFIRE.

A few more points

-Why go through the rectum to operate on the spine? There are several inches between the rectum and the very tip of the spine and that's not taking into account the twisting nature of the lower intestine and the thickness of the intestine wall. Also, why the lower spine? If you want good neurological signals, the back of the neck or the brain are better signal receiving areas.

-Why is there a scene of naked women fondling each other after the credits? I know that being stuck what is essentially a prison with other women around you will lead to circumstances but why did it have to be on screen? Is it to show how society has changed like in Brave New World or Shin Sekai Yori because I am very doubtful of that.

-What is so intrinsic to women that only they are norma? Is it the extra x chromosome because that would imply recessive traits which would be eliminated by now given how long these programs have probably been going.

-Why would the brother mate with his own sister? History has shown that repeated intermixing of family members like this leads to deformities and also make it easy for the families to die off. If it's just for "i'm evil", then there are better ways of doing it than sodding inbreeding.

This show is not worth making excuses, it's just tasteless. it's spiteful and hateful and deserves to be in the garbage.

as someone who lives in Japan, yeah WTF Japan is an excuse, rape is not a big deal here unless it is in an international discussion at which point they run damage control to protect international relationships. Japanese culture cares two shits for women. Young girls are routinely kidnapped and filmed in rape porn which is released at major pornography distributors. Since family honor would be slighted if the girl admitted to being raped, they do not report it. The Japanese people (as well as a good portion of the world, just in case you havent ever lived in a country outside the US) does NOT care about women, its all media bullshit to ensure positive relations with countries who do respect women. The US and most of civilized Europe are the ONLY countries who care about gender equality as a people. Look at India for a good example of people who international advocate womens rights yet ignore it internally.

So what, I'm supposed to just handwave the scene away with a pat on the back like it's a day to day thing?

That's ignorant and you know it. Also, if Japan is like this, they better shape the hell up before something really big happens to damage the country on the world stage

 

[SacremPyrobolum]

Stop Liking What I Don't Like: The Thread