Message to all anime viewers(NSFW): Cross Ange Tenshi to Ryu no Rondo
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I've seen you bring up Fate/Zero couple of times now. You know that show which actually has rape in it? It's even a child and we know that it goes on for years. Why is it okay for some shows to do it but not others?Izanagi009 said:
A) Good for you that its being streamed on crunchyroll. Ill take it back that youre pirating the series then. Still doesnt give you the right to act as if youre a moral police officer that gets to decide whats good and bad merely on your personal taste.Izanagi009 said:
If you ever want to amount to anything as a critic you should leave your personal tastes and morals and standards out of your reviews. Instead of telling everyone "you should not watch this because A, B and C and you should feel ashamed if you enjoy it still" (because that is how you come over with your "To all anime fans" nonsense in the titlem because quite clearly.. there are alot of anime fans who enjoy this kind of stuff)
and instead write something like this: "If you came into this series expecting to have an anime that focuses on robots vs dragons you might be turned off by the gratutious amount of fan service and the very graphical depiction of the main characters fall from the top of society to the lowest bottom."
There... in an instant you stopped apearing as an overbearing moral police officer just by that and without apearing to insult ANYONE or trying to shame anyone into compliance.
b) I never claimed that Valrave wasnt licensed. Yet there was a rape scene in it that in the context of the ongoing storyline made absolutely no sense what so freaking ever. It was established that the valraves where powered by "runes" found in peoples blood (wich somehow was their memories.. even thought memories are not stored in blood... ah whatev) So why would his hunger for blood make him rape one of his friends? And after he raped her it was just hand waved away and nearly forgotten in the following season. Yet no one seemed to care, maybe because there wasnt actually that much naked skin showed? Who knows...
c) no it didnt. It never does. Because unlike us moraly superior westerners its not a big deal in japan. Remember they where showing dance in the vampire bund on TV networks even thought that show has huuuuuge loli elements... dancing on the very edge towards pedophile.
d) And thats your opinion, doesnt mean that you get to decide whats acceptable and what is not. As was established earlier in this thread there are people who enjoy this kind of content and you have NO right to tell them that what they enjoy is wrong and that they should feel bad for it because said content just happens to offend your personal morals and standards.
e) Because the story said so? No seriously... that inbreeding nonsense started during the Roman empire or even earlier and kept its way allllllll the way up to the industrial revolution. Thats a damn long time for humans and yet royality never even wasted a thought that what they are doing is wrong. Know why? Because they where arrogant, because they where in power, and they sure as hell would not share that power with any "commoners".
Furthermore japan has an intense fascination with royality vs peasantry. There are countless anime and games that focus around the intricasies and interactions between the two roles. Heck Vandal hearts 2 an old game for PS 1 was all about said conflict and it can hardly be claimed as the first of its kind.
Japan likes to mix old with new. I could just easaly ask "Why monarchy? Havent they learned that monarchy is a terrible govermental system?`" Yet here we are... back to king and queens.
f) And yet they didnt because to the japanese market there is no "disonance". They made this anime for a special type of market. You are not said market so ofcourse you dislike it. But the people who like it have every right to get catered to without being harassed by the moral police aslong as it stays inside their head.
You dont like it... we get it... doesnt mean because youre offended that you should call for people to boycott it. That is not your job as a critic. Your job as a critic is to critize a piece of work not to call for people to ignore it because it offended your personal tastes, morals and standards.
You can't tell anyone to question their choice of entertainment. People can enjoy whatever they want for their fictional/fantasy needs - as long as it's not harming anyone and as long as it's law-abiding.NoeL said:
It's silly to bring up "unhealthy attitudes" (or as some others say, "the image of women") because those things are very much up to the individual to make up their mind on what attitude/image they want to hold. There are countless influencing factors everywhere (positive and negative) and it's up to individuals to decide what they want to enjoy or dislike.
Feel free to criticize all media, but don't tell anyone to stop (or question) what they enjoy in their fictional/fantasy entertainment. It amounts to judging people.
I agree with you for the most part, but the thing is, these 'personal tastes' can leak into reality, especially when people don't seem to understand that fiction and reality can be quite different...Aaron Sylvester said:
I've had the odd horrible thing done to me with little regard for what it's actually like to be on the recieving end of it, only to later find that the person doing these things had been watching a lot of porn, and had blindly assumed that stuff is fine to do in reality when it really, absolutely isn't.
I really loathe the idea of judging people ln what they enjoy as entertainment. (Even if it were something like lolicon or the like, I don't particularly want to judge a person on that).
But personal experience tells me some people don't understand what is real and what isn't, and drag their weird fantasies into reality, with horrific results.
Pornography in particular seems to confuse people.
It needs to be understood most porn is staged, and 'fake' (yes, it's real sex, but there is a lot of editing and acting involved that makes it look like something it actually isn't).
Because it's fake, it hides the fact that many of these acts are highly unpleasant, and really shouldn't be copied...
Yet some people don't realise this, and try to force these acts on their partners, and are then surprised their partners don't like it...
As long as you can maintain the seperation between fiction and reality, it's usually fine...
But when someone loses track of that, bad things start to happen.
To follow up what you are saying, as someone who has seen the episode which can be seen on crunchyroll.com if you want to see it, to compare this scene to Serbian Film or even Berserk would be like comparing hardcore porn to a primetime drama on NBC. The scene was around 3 mins long, where a woman, who is not considered human anymore, is striped, kicked in the gut then laid face down on a table as a person puts on a latex glove. There was no depiction of rape of any kind and most of what people are going on is either what others told them or what is assumed to have happened to the main character, but again, nothing was shown beyond that. This scene was blown way out of proportion IMO and it fit the context of the show.sumanoskae said:
I am guessing people skipped over Black Bullet which had 10 year old girls outcasted by society for being born with red eyes where people were more then fine with the police gunning them down and just outright blowing them up. Or is that fine since it didn't look like rape?
Well to be fair it sounds like you ran into a complete idiot. Porn had little to do with it :/CrystalShadow said:
If some people "lose track" between reality and fiction it's 99% their fault. As I said, it comes down to the individual.
So... why are we not in arms about death? I mean, death takes away that character's life forever, and they usually suffer in some terrible way before it happens. Everyone seems to think that things like Shiki, Tokyo Ghoul, End of Evangelion, Space Run Away Ideon, etc are instant classics or "deep", even though they feature heavily depression, mental torture/agony, suffering, and death, though, and some even call for the maturing of a series by having characters die, or that there's characterization through their mental trauma and watching their world be destroyed.
Tokyo Ghoul features the same sorts of suffering and torture, and that's almost on an episode by episode basis but I don't see anyone raising hell about it. I even see it in Top 10 lists for anime of 2014. So... tell me. Why is rape so much more horrible than death, or having someone being eaten by someone else while they scream in terror and pain? The only difference is the sexual aspect of the pain inflicted, and it looks like it was over pretty quickly. Not saying that rape isn't evil, it is, but I see people clamoring and demanding and cheering for even worse stuff to happen, and acting like it's positive (character growth, plot depth, lore, etc).
Watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGKtRtmiw8k#t=6m28s
I want you to watch that entire scene, front to back. Yet I see this anime, Shiki, on top 10 lists, over and over and over. It's almost a solid minute of pure agony, of screaming in terror, of suffering... yet I don't see anyone railing against it. Instead, everyone's raging about a one-off scene that implies rape. Priorities, people.
Tokyo Ghoul features the same sorts of suffering and torture, and that's almost on an episode by episode basis but I don't see anyone raising hell about it. I even see it in Top 10 lists for anime of 2014. So... tell me. Why is rape so much more horrible than death, or having someone being eaten by someone else while they scream in terror and pain? The only difference is the sexual aspect of the pain inflicted, and it looks like it was over pretty quickly. Not saying that rape isn't evil, it is, but I see people clamoring and demanding and cheering for even worse stuff to happen, and acting like it's positive (character growth, plot depth, lore, etc).
Watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGKtRtmiw8k#t=6m28s
I want you to watch that entire scene, front to back. Yet I see this anime, Shiki, on top 10 lists, over and over and over. It's almost a solid minute of pure agony, of screaming in terror, of suffering... yet I don't see anyone railing against it. Instead, everyone's raging about a one-off scene that implies rape. Priorities, people.
If you are referring to Sakura Mutou, it's because the scene is kept from a distance, the framing is to scare unlike with cross ange, and the camera was kept at a distance.SquallTheBlade said:
It's much more tasteful than the scene in Cross Ange so that's why it didn't bother me
A) Thank you, I have an issue with using overexaggerated rhetoric so thanks for brining it up.Karadalis said:
B) I hated the valvrave scene greatly for a different reason, it's a dark and harsh "big lipped alligator moment" that comes out of nowhere and has no bearing on the plot. It was stupid and pointless so there was no reason for it to be there
C)I suppose that would be an interesting point of contrast but the question is what are the times that these shows are put on. If the shows are on a late night block or a block where people don't watch normally, It would make sense that no complaints would be had but there is precedent of anime being forced to move to a different slot with Recently, My Sister is Unusual [http://www.crunchyroll.com/anime-news/2014/01/29-1/recently-my-sister-is-unusual-moved-to-late-night-broadcast-slot-in-japan] due to sexual content. So depending on the time slot, the reaction will be gauged that way. I do get your point though that perhaps I and many others am a bit too dramatic over it.
D) again, thank you for bringing it to my attention
E) I suppose so but if it's just a cheap ploy to make us hate the brother instead of having a well developed character, I will call the incest angle cheap
F) thank you for bringing my rhetoric and speech to my attention, I will improve at a steady pace but only time will tell. Also I suppose I'm not the audience but the scene still feels poorly framed and written to me but I guess opinions will vary.
I suppose a final assessment of Cross Ange is "Has potencial with it's fun dragons vs mecha concept and high production values but the first episode comes with excessive fanservice and a graphic assault so only time will tell if this is an omen for the writing or a hiccup".
I'm sorry, but I feel like Izanagi has slightly misrepresented the scene. First, the camara did not linger on her wiggling backside for more than a couple of seconds. That combined with the speach and expression of the Norma guard and the slightly disturbed look of the regular officer indicated that this was outside of normal procedure and done explicitely to put her in her place and degrade her. Keep in mind this was initiated by the Norma Guard, who theoretically would have had to endure similar treatment, to a former princess who had just recently and publicly called normas mutants who sohould be eliminated.
As for her bleeding from her rectum, um no she wasn't. If Izanagi weren't so set on judging the scene, he/she would have realized the blood was on the dress from when the queen was shot and not some rectal discharge.
As to the framing of the scene with regards to the ending credits, well I just call bullshit on that one. What the hell do the credits have to do with the content that preceded them? I can't even count the number of times that there has been disonance between an anime episodes content and the credits. This example smacks of artificial inflation of an issue to make a point.
Now all this being said, I honestly don't think Izanagi meant to be misleading. The problem is that when you go into something with a particular opinion or mindset then that colors everything you experience as you tend to evaluate everything by those terms. We all do it, and it would not be an issue if people didn't then go out and either push their interpretation as the valid one or judge others by it. It's not fair. The easiest solution is to keep and open mind and be aware that your interpretation or opinion while valid and relevant (if only to you) are not the end all and be all. This applies to all of us. Thanks for listening to what ultimately, Just my opinion.
As for her bleeding from her rectum, um no she wasn't. If Izanagi weren't so set on judging the scene, he/she would have realized the blood was on the dress from when the queen was shot and not some rectal discharge.
As to the framing of the scene with regards to the ending credits, well I just call bullshit on that one. What the hell do the credits have to do with the content that preceded them? I can't even count the number of times that there has been disonance between an anime episodes content and the credits. This example smacks of artificial inflation of an issue to make a point.
Now all this being said, I honestly don't think Izanagi meant to be misleading. The problem is that when you go into something with a particular opinion or mindset then that colors everything you experience as you tend to evaluate everything by those terms. We all do it, and it would not be an issue if people didn't then go out and either push their interpretation as the valid one or judge others by it. It's not fair. The easiest solution is to keep and open mind and be aware that your interpretation or opinion while valid and relevant (if only to you) are not the end all and be all. This applies to all of us. Thanks for listening to what ultimately, Just my opinion.
I suppose that would be the case(the breach of protocol, the blood being from the mother) but the credit scene with the naked girls and the suite also had a show of Ange lying on the ground broken a sec after. I would say that would be a bit dissonant. I wasn't referring to the actual credits but the little scenes leading up but I understand your point otherwise.ronin504 said:
I also understand that this is just an extreme interpretation so how would you explain the fact that 4 out of 5 critics said that the scene was troubling. I will note that the fifth critic said the show was good but the writing was not distinct and the balance of fanservice is to be determined.
I will say that the show, without that one scene, would probably be good for me. I would say it would probably be gratuitous with lesbianism but when you have a show with a concept of girls piloting mechs against dragons, it will probably be there one way or another so I would be more lenient on that. With the scene though, the tonal shift feel very off and it kills the show for me. You want to watch it, I suppose go right ahead but I will be keeping an eye to see if the tone doesn't become so jarring at later points.
I've seen enough anime to bet that those scenes leading up to the credits are actually a part of the credits but we'll have to wait and see. As for 4 critics finding the scene disturbing, well I would say that it's supposed to be disturbing since it's hinted that that treatment, while extreme in the case of the princess, is still par for the couse for norma. In other words this is how people who are not considered human are treated. In this particular instance someone who arguably would have suffered something similair was able to now inflict this on a member of the ruling class who had just recently espoused views that allowed the perpetuation of that treatment. The whole scene smacks of Break the Haughty to me.
distrubing yes, but the framing and tonal shift is what most people including myself seem to have an issue with. I can understand if you aren't affected but I and many others areronin504 said:
P.S if you wish to reply back, do quote me, make it easier to see that you replyed
What is this tastefulness you speak of? What makes a scene tasteful and another scene tasteless? Why is one of these better than the other?Izanagi009 said:
Izangai-san, where is your post regarding Garo the Animation? It clearly shows a pregnant woman being burned alive, clear indications of women people raped and prostitution. I only mention that cause I am sure you will ignore the guy who was ripped in half by horses and the men who are stabbed multiple times. I await your post about another anime to warn people about. ^_^Izanagi009 said:
Don't forget Violence Jack, Icchi the Killer, M.D. Geist, Genocyber, Apocalypse Zero, Ninja Scroll...so on and so forth. How many times have we watched an anime where a woman's about to get raped before the protagonist jumps in?
It gives me this familiar feeling that I got when I heard the reaction to Lady-Thor. The one where I feel like everyone shitting bricks just came out of cryo stasis.
It gives me this familiar feeling that I got when I heard the reaction to Lady-Thor. The one where I feel like everyone shitting bricks just came out of cryo stasis.
Sorry, it's not often that I post and even rarer when I quote.Izanagi009 said:
I get it, stuff like this isn't for everyone and that's ok. However, some people enjoy it and that's ok too. Different strokes and all, just live and let live. Inform people of the content without holding judgement and let them make their own decisions. Honestly it's the judging and implied derision that people take offence to in these arguements. It may not be intentional on your part and it could even be because of the issue of reading tone over the internet but that's how it comes across and no one likes to be judged.
So, after watching the first episode, I have to say my thoughts on the show so far can summed up as "Eh". The mech vs dragon action in the beginning is nice, but beyond that I didn't really see anything that was particularly interesting, but then again, it IS only the first episode.
On the whole "controversial" scenes, I have to say that while it felt a bit more in-your-face than what I'd generally expect from Sunrise(apparently Valvrave is the same? I don't know, dropped that after 1st Ep. too), it's not something I find particularly outrageous.
TBH, the only thing that I'd take out would be that couple seconds of ass shaking, the fan-service intention was a bit too obvious, the scene probably would flow better without it. Otherwise, the rest of it, brutality and all, doesn't bother me one bit - as far as I can see the events that took place seems to be consistent with the world that the story is taking place in. That's usually my main criteria: are the events taking place in the story internally consistent with the setting. As long as that's the case, I'm generally fine with whatever the writers put out.
It's obvious that they're going for the whole elite/privileged MC knocked down to the lowest peg of society, and then work their way/redeem themselves back up thing. Hell, they already showed you that the (now former) Princess will recover and be well on her way at the very start of the show.
It's not looking to be a particularly original or interesting setup, but that really depends on how they execute the plot going forward. There wasn't really any mention of the dragons during the actual story, so maybe the catalyst for her redemption would be the extra-dimensional magic dragon invasion? I dunno, maybe the Normas will be the only ones capable of fighting against the dragons and stuff, because reasons
On the whole "controversial" scenes, I have to say that while it felt a bit more in-your-face than what I'd generally expect from Sunrise(apparently Valvrave is the same? I don't know, dropped that after 1st Ep. too), it's not something I find particularly outrageous.
TBH, the only thing that I'd take out would be that couple seconds of ass shaking, the fan-service intention was a bit too obvious, the scene probably would flow better without it. Otherwise, the rest of it, brutality and all, doesn't bother me one bit - as far as I can see the events that took place seems to be consistent with the world that the story is taking place in. That's usually my main criteria: are the events taking place in the story internally consistent with the setting. As long as that's the case, I'm generally fine with whatever the writers put out.
It's obvious that they're going for the whole elite/privileged MC knocked down to the lowest peg of society, and then work their way/redeem themselves back up thing. Hell, they already showed you that the (now former) Princess will recover and be well on her way at the very start of the show.
It's not looking to be a particularly original or interesting setup, but that really depends on how they execute the plot going forward. There wasn't really any mention of the dragons during the actual story, so maybe the catalyst for her redemption would be the extra-dimensional magic dragon invasion? I dunno, maybe the Normas will be the only ones capable of fighting against the dragons and stuff, because reasons
I didn't hear about Garo the Animation until now and I didn't see anything about it until today so I didn't comment on itOtakun said:
Once again, sexual themes are not the issue, its the framing and delivery. Looking at ANN and any brief mention of the rape was from the person who was most vocal about Cross Ange who stated that "it was men pulling up their pants while walking out of a barn of shackled women". I have not seen the show but if the camera doesn't linger on breasts or ass like Cross Ange and if the show's scenes before and after that point are the same tone, I will have no problem. I might call the show indulgent in it's violence given your description but if the show doesn't just throw it in for the sake of violence and actually has a point then I can't make a complete call.