Message to all anime viewers(NSFW): Cross Ange Tenshi to Ryu no Rondo

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

Stop Liking What I Don't Like: The Thread

While I admit that my rhetoric could be less commanding and more neutral in stating the opinion I possess, I don't believe that reducing all opinions counter to yours as "stop liking what I don't like" is very good for this discussion.

I will admit that i was a bit overly emotional with my intial post but after a few days, I can say three things

-This type of scene has an audience and I shouldn't impose on them to not watch the show

-In my personal opinion analyzing the show, the content combined with the tone of the scenes around it and the framing of said scene make it such that I can't recommend watching it despite the high production values and fun concept due to the dissonant tone of the episode and the overly blatant fanservice in even the worst times.

-This is the first episode so judgement should be held until the next two episodes before a full impression can be made.

If you have anything to contribute in terms of how you viewed that scene, that would be appreciated since I can't see any specific comment on that scene from you.

 

[SacremPyrobolum]

Stop Liking What I Don't Like: The Thread

I don't believe that reducing all opinions counter to yours as "stop liking what I don't like" is very good for this discussion.

This implies there is even a discussion here.

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

Stop Liking What I Don't Like: The Thread

I don't believe that reducing all opinions counter to yours as "stop liking what I don't like" is very good for this discussion.

This implies there is even a discussion here.

There is a discussion, whether the scene in question is in good standing and shot in a way that does not detract from the show or if it's framing and placement in the show make it tasteless and exploitative.

 

[VectorSlip]

Stop Liking What I Don't Like: The Thread

I don't believe that reducing all opinions counter to yours as "stop liking what I don't like" is very good for this discussion.

This implies there is even a discussion here.

See this is where I think you're wrong. I think there is a discussion to be had here. Especially considering how much izinagi and the way they articulated their position has changed over the past few days in this thread.

For example, at the risk of repeating myself, I don't think the fanservice we've seen so far has been anything but mild. Its more casual fanservice, being delivered primarily through shots and filming natural circumstances such as the royal women being in their expensive, glamorously revealing nightgowns right before bed. Its not gratuitous like something Maken ki would show along with all the convenient tripping, boobfalls and matrix tits that type of indulgent fanservice implies. I've also discussed with them how I think the controversial scene is well put together and fits the tone of the show and the few seconds of fanservice dont take away from that. I've also argued that the ending credits seem isn't as tonally dissonant as it may seem at first glance. My discussion and the many people like me who are actually talking with each other in this thread are even reflected in izanagi's more nuanced opinion and view of the show and that is a good thing.

It may not seem like it but things have changed over the course of this thread precisely because there is a discussion to be hand. I haven't contributed much more to this thread outside of my initial posts because i've largely said all that I had to say and more contribution from me at this point would largely come down to arguing opinions and perspectives, of which me and izanagi are of fundamently different spectrums on, and those are notoriously hard to actually argue with

(Edited for clarity)

 

[Otakun]

It just that, after two days of agonizing over this, it seems likely that Izanagi has probably spent more time thinking about this scene than anybody else on the planet, including the people that made it.

Seems counter productive.

Well, it's even more counter productive since he wanted people to not watch the show based on this one scene but by making it such a big deal has only gotten more people to watch it who would have over looked the anime as a simple fanservice anime.

Yeah a simple fanservice anime with a torture scene of a very dissonant tone in it.

Remind me again, why it shouldn't be brought up that the show is dissonant in tone and that it could be a sign of bad writing?

Well, I didn't find it to be poorly written. If you want to watch a show that is poorly written then watch Wixoss. It was showing that being branded as a Norma is a very bad thing and you are no longer treated like a human being which they conveyed pretty well in 3 mins. I found the drawn and quarter scene in Garo the Animation to be far more disturbing but it's an anime. I get over it.

 

[TakerFoxx]

Yeah a simple fanservice anime with a torture scene of a very dissonant tone in it.

Remind me again, why it shouldn't be brought up that the show is dissonant in tone and that it could be a sign of bad writing?

Here's the problem though: these sorts of reactions really are counter-productive. If you don't want people to watch this show, the worst thing you can do is loudly condemn it, because you're just giving them free publicity. I've never heard about this show before you made these threads, and even if I had, I would have just ignored it as "Not my thing." But because you've spent so much time going on at length over how bad it is, I kinda want to watch it now out of morbid curiosity just to see what all the fuss is about.

I mean, I'm probably not going to because I'm notoriously lazy, but the point remains. There's no such thing as bad publicity.

 

[Karadalis]

Could we please not resort to accusations

I brought it to attention because I thought the scene was disturbing and not well written and that people should try to avoid it because it was highly exploitative.

Since then, I've calmed down and realized that the show itself would be better if the scene was shot different, that the show outside of that scene was fanservice laden but well animated and produced and that there is an audience for this sort of thing but I still stand by my opinion that that one scene in combination with the tone of scenes before and after it aren't exactly the most well written or comfortable

Fine by me.

But as you just said yourselfe. After all is said and done, all that remains is a scene of questionable quality in a fan service anime.

There is nothing left to discuss here.

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

Could we please not resort to accusations

I brought it to attention because I thought the scene was disturbing and not well written and that people should try to avoid it because it was highly exploitative.

Since then, I've calmed down and realized that the show itself would be better if the scene was shot different, that the show outside of that scene was fanservice laden but well animated and produced and that there is an audience for this sort of thing but I still stand by my opinion that that one scene in combination with the tone of scenes before and after it aren't exactly the most well written or comfortable

Fine by me.

But as you just said yourself, After all is said and done, all that remains is a scene of questionable quality in a fan service anime.

There is nothing left to discuss here.

The only question becomes why did they decide to put something like that in the show. I know they need to show a fall from grace for Ange but why did they have to make it with such imagery that makes the scene with very questionable framing and tone in relation to the rest of the show. I think we can agree that there are better ways to convey the effect they were looking for without resorting to making it look so much like rape to me and others.

Regardless, I will wait for the second and third episode to make a full judgement about the tone and framing but this first episode didn't exactly leave a good impression on me or many others.

 

[Karadalis]

Could we please not resort to accusations

I brought it to attention because I thought the scene was disturbing and not well written and that people should try to avoid it because it was highly exploitative.

Since then, I've calmed down and realized that the show itself would be better if the scene was shot different, that the show outside of that scene was fanservice laden but well animated and produced and that there is an audience for this sort of thing but I still stand by my opinion that that one scene in combination with the tone of scenes before and after it aren't exactly the most well written or comfortable

Fine by me.

But as you just said yourself, After all is said and done, all that remains is a scene of questionable quality in a fan service anime.

There is nothing left to discuss here.

The only question becomes why did they decide to put something like that in the show. I know they need to show a fall from grace for Ange but why did they have to make it with such imagery that makes the scene with very questionable framing and tone in relation to the rest of the show. I think we can agree that there are better ways to convey the effect they were looking for without resorting to making it look so much like rape to me and others.

Regardless, I will wait for the second and third episode to make a full judgement about the tone and framing but this first episode didn't exactly leave a good impression on me or many others.

Because they wanted to cater to a very specific market group ofcourse. You know.. the type that will buy the "sexy" model kits of the protagonist?

We allready established that there are people out there that like this kind of content.. so ofcourse its for them. If its heavy handed or poorly implemented *shrugs* thats what they went for in the end.

Heck i ask myselfe these things each time EA tries to screw over its customers even more... why the hell would they do that?

Most often the answer is: "Sounded like a good idea at the time" <---- managment

 

[grassgremlin]

I'm just gonna say that it doesn't matter what ACTUALLY happened in the scene.
It's sexualized a fetishized to the point that the creators intended to imply some sort of rape.

It's not satire either because the show starts with fan-service and sexualizing characters.
It's like ecchi anime that has milk being spilled on some girls. You can argue that it's just milk, but the frame work of the scene just implies it's something else.

If it's satire the joke is obvious. It kind of looks like she's being raped

 

[sonofliber]

And now i will have to see the anime, nice job TC

see this is what people dont understand, if you dont want people to watch it, DONT MENTIONE IT, if you do, people will want to see wtf is the problem, which will draw in more views/sales.

 

[Otakun]

I'm just gonna say that it doesn't matter what ACTUALLY happened in the scene.
It's sexualized a fetishized to the point that the creators intended to imply some sort of rape.

It's not satire either because the show starts with fan-service and sexualizing characters.
It's like ecchi anime that has milk being spilled on some girls. You can argue that it's just milk, but the frame work of the scene just implies it's something else.

If it's satire the joke is obvious. It kind of looks like she's being raped

Well, I have to disagree here. What is actually SHOWN does matter. You are assuming what the creators implied based on your own opinion. Unless you find a legitimate quote of the creator saying "I intended this to seem like rape" then you can say what you are saying but you are basing this off simply because you believe it was rape cause it's a fan service show. You saw the scene as implied rape but I saw it as a naive child falling from grace into hell. You take a rich girl and throw her in a harsh prison, I am sure you will see the same look on their face.

 

[VanQ]

And now i will have to see the anime, nice job TC

see this is what people dont understand, if you dont want people to watch it, DONT MENTIONE IT, if you do, people will want to see wtf is the problem, which will draw in more views/sales.

Not necessarily. If someone tells me to avoid something and gives me good reason to do so then I'll usually listen. OP here has just started flailing his arms yelling "implied rape! oh the horror!" for 7 pages. He's done nothing but convince me that if this show is worth 7 pages of complaining then it's probably worth at least watching the first episode.

EDIT: And as a side note, as of writing, this thread has over 10,300 views. That means he's exposed this show to a possible amount of people as the views this thread has that may otherwise have never heard about or watched the show. A classic case of "no publicity is bad publicity". OP really should work as a PR agent.

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

And now i will have to see the anime, nice job TC

see this is what people dont understand, if you dont want people to watch it, DONT MENTIONE IT, if you do, people will want to see wtf is the problem, which will draw in more views/sales.

Not necessarily. If someone tells me to avoid something and gives me good reason to do so then I'll usually listen. OP here has just started flailing his arms yelling "implied rape! oh the horror!" for 7 pages. He's done nothing but convince me that if this show is worth 7 pages of complaining then it's probably worth at least watching the first episode.

EDIT: And as a side note, as of writing, this thread has over 10,300 views. That means he's exposed this show to a possible amount of people as the views this thread has that may otherwise have never heard about or watched the show. A classic case of "no publicity is bad publicity". OP really should work as a PR agent.

I suppose I should have calmed down and stated the reason as the following: The show is a textbook case of dissonance with the first few scenes having standard fanserivce of people in exposing night garb. It however then descends into a scene with implied rape but with framing of the ass and panties being present in the scenes in such a way that the purpose of the scene becomes confused. After that, we have an image of a suite full of naked girls and two of them in a softcore lesbian scene before a cut to the broken protagonist. The scene in reference to the rest of the show was highly different in tone and even within the scene had very questionable framing. If you can stomach it, go for it but I and a few others have issues with it.

Edit: in reference to your edit, that It suppose it is somewhat ironic that in my effort to reduce views of the show, I increased visibility. I guess I forgot about the Streisand effect and I usually am aware of psychological and social phenomina. I guess stuff happens.

 

[SAMAS]

It just that, after two days of agonizing over this, it seems likely that Izanagi has probably spent more time thinking about this scene than anybody else on the planet, including the people that made it.

Seems counter productive.

Well, it's even more counter productive since he wanted people to not watch the show based on this one scene but by making it such a big deal has only gotten more people to watch it who would have over looked the anime as a simple fanservice anime.

Yeah a simple fanservice anime with a torture scene of a very dissonant tone in it.

Remind me again, why it shouldn't be brought up that the show is dissonant in tone and that it could be a sign of bad writing?

Dissonance in and of itself is not a bad thing. And it's fairly obvious they're trying to go for that.

I mean, let's take a further back look at the same episode, where we are introduced to our Heroine. We see a graceful, Oujou-like girl, skilled in sports but graceful in defeat.

Five minutes later, we see her tell a woman whose child is forcibly being taken away that her baby was not human, and next time, she should try to have a real baby. With that same goddamned gracious smile on her face (It's one of the best examples of the hypocrisy inherent in racism I have ever seen in any medium).

Then the hammer falls. Turns out, SHE'S an "abomination", too. Suddenly, she's not just fallen, but considered an enemy of society, just for existing. For a crime she never even knew she committed. And suddenly the only person willing to stand for her is taken from her too. They even cut to the still-distraught mother from before, going through sorrow and schadenfreude in equal measure, as she sees the girl who has come to personify her grief undergo the same pain she had put her through.

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

It just that, after two days of agonizing over this, it seems likely that Izanagi has probably spent more time thinking about this scene than anybody else on the planet, including the people that made it.

Seems counter productive.

Well, it's even more counter productive since he wanted people to not watch the show based on this one scene but by making it such a big deal has only gotten more people to watch it who would have over looked the anime as a simple fanservice anime.

Yeah a simple fanservice anime with a torture scene of a very dissonant tone in it.

Remind me again, why it shouldn't be brought up that the show is dissonant in tone and that it could be a sign of bad writing?

Dissonance in and of itself is not a bad thing. And it's fairly obvious they're trying to go for that.

I mean, let's take a further back look at the same episode, where we are introduced to our Heroine. We see a graceful, Oujou-like girl, skilled in sports but graceful in defeat.

Five minutes later, we see her tell a woman whose child is forcibly being taken away that her baby was not human, and next time, she should try to have a real baby. With that same goddamned gracious smile on her face (It's one of the best examples of the hypocrisy inherent in racism I have ever seen in any medium).

Then the hammer falls. Turns out, SHE'S an "abomination", too. Suddenly, she's not just fallen, but considered an enemy of society, just for existing. For a crime she never even knew she committed. And suddenly the only person willing to stand for her is taken from her too. They even cut to the still-distraught mother from before, going through sorrow and schadenfreude in equal measure, as she sees the girl who has come to personify her grief undergo the same pain she had put her through.

I guess but did the dissonance have to be present during the torture scene? seeing her ass and panties for the few seconds they were on is enough for me to say that the purpose of the scene is confused.

 

[grassgremlin]

I'm just gonna say that it doesn't matter what ACTUALLY happened in the scene.
It's sexualized a fetishized to the point that the creators intended to imply some sort of rape.

It's not satire either because the show starts with fan-service and sexualizing characters.
It's like ecchi anime that has milk being spilled on some girls. You can argue that it's just milk, but the frame work of the scene just implies it's something else.

If it's satire the joke is obvious. It kind of looks like she's being raped

Well, I have to disagree here. What is actually SHOWN does matter. You are assuming what the creators implied based on your own opinion. Unless you find a legitimate quote of the creator saying "I intended this to seem like rape" then you can say what you are saying but you are basing this off simply because you believe it was rape cause it's a fan service show. You saw the scene as implied rape but I saw it as a naive child falling from grace into hell. You take a rich girl and throw her in a harsh prison, I am sure you will see the same look on their face.

That's great if the scene was framed that way, but, it's kind of strange to linger on her ass and then have one of the characters rip off her panties. It's still technically rape if it's implied that she shoved something up her butt.

You can rape someone without the part where you're actually having intercourse. I'm not saying you can't have rape in a scene for story reasons, but it's the framing. She gets violated and and it's framed in a very similar manner to hentai porn.

Here's the jist, if it's a horrible rape scene, then show that it's horrible, but this was a bit too eroticized for it's own good and completely out of context.

 

[Karadalis]

I'm just gonna say that it doesn't matter what ACTUALLY happened in the scene.
It's sexualized a fetishized to the point that the creators intended to imply some sort of rape.

It's not satire either because the show starts with fan-service and sexualizing characters.
It's like ecchi anime that has milk being spilled on some girls. You can argue that it's just milk, but the frame work of the scene just implies it's something else.

If it's satire the joke is obvious. It kind of looks like she's being raped

Well, I have to disagree here. What is actually SHOWN does matter. You are assuming what the creators implied based on your own opinion. Unless you find a legitimate quote of the creator saying "I intended this to seem like rape" then you can say what you are saying but you are basing this off simply because you believe it was rape cause it's a fan service show. You saw the scene as implied rape but I saw it as a naive child falling from grace into hell. You take a rich girl and throw her in a harsh prison, I am sure you will see the same look on their face.

That's great if the scene was framed that way, but, it's kind of strange to linger on her ass and then have one of the characters rip off her panties. It's still technically rape if it's implied that she shoved something up her butt.

You can rape someone without the part where you're actually having intercourse. I'm not saying you can't have rape in a scene for story reasons, but it's the framing. She gets violated and and it's framed in a very similar manner to hentai porn.

Here's the jist, if it's a horrible rape scene, then show that it's horrible, but this was a bit too eroticized for it's own good and completely out of context.

Ugh.. i swear to god...

No its not strange...

No its not a pure coincidence that they framed the shot like that... its fanservice.. blatant at that...

No its not "the worst thing evar!!!!!" because they did it... infact its rather tame compared to other stuff thats airing on their TV networks.

No this anime is not for you if you find this "offensive"... so dont watch it

But stop making a huge fuss about it and simply MOVE ON. The world will still be moving tomorrow, womens rights in the west are not endangered because of this scene and the japanese really... REALLY dont give a fuck what we think anyways. They still hunt whales even thought the international outcry is much larger then against this run of the mill fanservice anime.

So you guys comming here complaining to US that this show is oh so horrible is a complete waste of time and just shows that this internet social justice nonsense is just one huge puff of smoke.

Cause unlike in the west no one in japan will get fired or reprimanded because someone in the US is offended over... Something.

This discussion is entirely pointless....

You guys come here and say "this scene is horrible!!" to wich everyone answers "SO WHAT?" to wich you keep answering "BUT ITS SO HORRIBLE!"

We... get... it...

Now let it go...

 

[Baron Teapot]

You can say the same out of context gibberish about Berserk too. Doesn't mean it's not one of the best things ever. Why do you need to sound the alarm? To protect people's sensitive sensibilities? Sounds kinda silly to me.

Dreiko, Casca's rape in Berserk is a huge part of the story. This proud, strong woman, and Guts' first love, is destroyed purely to provoke Guts. Her rape is what fuels Guts' rage, and serves to illustrate how far Griffith has fallen, resorting to inhuman acts of cruelty, all for the sake of his dream.

It leads the audience to question whether his ambition is worth it, and places us squarely on Guts' side, seeing Griffith as a monster whose Faustian deal has cost him his humanity and left him a cold-hearted monster. It fits perfectly with the characters' identities and the themes of the manga.

There is a difference between change of tone and just writing bullshit for shock value or masturbation material, if you find this fap material good writing you can masturbate to it all you want. I also recommend avengers 200 you might like it.

I understand what you're saying. Truly, I feel that these sorts of publicity stunts, where content creators add something controversial not because it serves the story or the characters, but for the sake of stirring up controversy and shallow news reports, are absolutely pathetic to me.

I don't want to watch this anime, because I now know that the creators are goons who are incapable of enticing me with a beautifully-written story and engaging characters - they wouldn't have had to insert such inconsequential dreck if it were any good. Simple as that, really.

 

[Baron Teapot]

So what?

It's an incredibly poor argument, to join a discussion forum and, to anything you don't like or don't understand, demand that everyone "move on" because "nobody cares". If you don't want to discuss this, then please don't.

I'm just gonna say that it doesn't matter what ACTUALLY happened in the scene.
It's sexualized a fetishized to the point that the creators intended to imply some sort of rape.

It's not satire either because the show starts with fan-service and sexualizing characters.
It's like ecchi anime that has milk being spilled on some girls. You can argue that it's just milk, but the frame work of the scene just implies it's something else.

If it's satire the joke is obvious. It kind of looks like she's being raped

Well, I have to disagree here. What is actually SHOWN does matter. You are assuming what the creators implied based on your own opinion. Unless you find a legitimate quote of the creator saying "I intended this to seem like rape" then you can say what you are saying but you are basing this off simply because you believe it was rape cause it's a fan service show. You saw the scene as implied rape but I saw it as a naive child falling from grace into hell. You take a rich girl and throw her in a harsh prison, I am sure you will see the same look on their face.

That's great if the scene was framed that way, but, it's kind of strange to linger on her ass and then have one of the characters rip off her panties. It's still technically rape if it's implied that she shoved something up her butt.

You can rape someone without the part where you're actually having intercourse. I'm not saying you can't have rape in a scene for story reasons, but it's the framing. She gets violated and and it's framed in a very similar manner to hentai porn.

Here's the jist, if it's a horrible rape scene, then show that it's horrible, but this was a bit too eroticized for it's own good and completely out of context.

Ugh.. i swear to god...

No its not strange...

No its not a pure coincidence that they framed the shot like that... its fanservice.. blatant at that...

No its not "the worst thing evar!!!!!" because they did it... infact its rather tame compared to other stuff thats airing on their TV networks.

No this anime is not for you if you find this "offensive"... so dont watch it

But stop making a huge fuss about it and simply MOVE ON. The world will still be moving tomorrow, womens rights in the west are not endangered because of this scene and the japanese really... REALLY dont give a fuck what we think anyways. They still hunt whales even thought the international outcry is much larger then against this run of the mill fanservice anime.

So you guys comming here complaining to US that this show is oh so horrible is a complete waste of time and just shows that this internet social justice nonsense is just one huge puff of smoke.

Cause unlike in the west no one in japan will get fired or reprimanded because someone in the US is offended over... Something.

This discussion is entirely pointless....

You guys come here and say "this scene is horrible!!" to wich everyone answers "SO WHAT?" to wich you keep answering "BUT ITS SO HORRIBLE!"

We... get... it...

Now let it go...