In MGS2 there is a cutscene in which Raiden is tied up, naked, and tortured. He then escapes, naked, covering his genitals with his hands, and proceeds to run through the facility. At this point, the player can do a "summersault" move to avoid the attention of soldiers and guards. Is this sexual objectification? Is it pure fetish material, devoid of any contribution to the story or gameplay? What would be the reaction if this same sequence happened to a female character?
MGS2 Sexual Objectification?
- Thread starter Albetta
- Start date
If the games' industry didn't have a record of female titillation and nudity solely for the sake of sexual appeal, people might say it was a relevant and good idea. As it is, they're probably more likely to say it's just fetishizing because that's that's more typical.
I swear every day there's someone somewhere on here that's itching to start up yet another "X game is sexist" thread, I was told this crap was going to die down after a month or two but now it's been months since and I'm still seeing more Sexist/mysonginy threads than I am actual gaming, if it's to do with our reality and not the game itself (but using it as a mere staple to discuss here for a free pass) then why not clog up the off topic?, it's making it very difficult to come here and talk about actual gaming with all the gamer gate/SJW/sexist talk, this isn't the last bastion of a place to whoever wishes to think that, the internet is vast and infinite, there are plenty of "safe havens" to talk about GG.
I'm well aware, I'm wondering why you're asking it though, it's been years since the game, is the only way to talk about it through Sexual Objectification?, why does it have to be in the current rend that's sadly going on in the gaming topics?, why does it have to be something to do with it being sexist?.Albetta said:
The question i'm trying to beg is whether or not theres a double standard for male character's titillating scenes. I would argue there is. As is, this scene has been completely left out of the conversation. Make Raiden a woman, however, and the scene is a vile, gross piece of misogynistic trash. Thats an fundamentally unfair view, and one I think many of the people on these forums unfortunately have.Shadow-Phoenix said:
I think it's mostly because when the game came out, there was no talk of "sexism" and "misogyny" in games. We saw naked Raiden, pointed, laughed, and moved on with our lives. I'm pretty sure it's supposed to be funny, and that's it. There's no deeper social commentary, and we were not supposed to go off exploring the depths of the human condition.
In recent years, however, meddlers have been meddling. And they performed such a monumental meddling that there is now a complete and total fixation on the topic of *dun dun duunnnn* SEXISM IN VIDEO GAMES. Woe to any developer who wants to include any nudity in a game nowadays, as the whole thing is just a fucking minefield-- complete with rabid gangs just itching for a witch-hunt.
But I'll agree with you-- put a similar scene in a recent game, swap the character for a female, and you've got yourself a cataclysmic shitstorm. There IS a double-standard. But some folks are also a bit too high-strung. Hell, just have one dude sitting above another dude on the cover of your game, and people's heads will catch fire. I seriously think people need to chill out, and mind their own business. I don't give a shit if there's naked people doing acrobatics in any context of any game. I really don't. And I really think gaming would be better off if the rest of the world also didn't.
Edit: just added to and clarified my iron-clad argument(s).
In recent years, however, meddlers have been meddling. And they performed such a monumental meddling that there is now a complete and total fixation on the topic of *dun dun duunnnn* SEXISM IN VIDEO GAMES. Woe to any developer who wants to include any nudity in a game nowadays, as the whole thing is just a fucking minefield-- complete with rabid gangs just itching for a witch-hunt.
But I'll agree with you-- put a similar scene in a recent game, swap the character for a female, and you've got yourself a cataclysmic shitstorm. There IS a double-standard. But some folks are also a bit too high-strung. Hell, just have one dude sitting above another dude on the cover of your game, and people's heads will catch fire. I seriously think people need to chill out, and mind their own business. I don't give a shit if there's naked people doing acrobatics in any context of any game. I really don't. And I really think gaming would be better off if the rest of the world also didn't.
Edit: just added to and clarified my iron-clad argument(s).
YOU ARE SO RIGHT. I NEVER THOUGHT OF IT THAT WAY. CLEARLY EVERYTHING I HAVE EVER THOUGHT WAS A LIE. AND ALL I HAD TO DO TO COME TO THE REVELATION WAS NOTICE THIS ONE SEX JOKE IN A 10 YEAR OLD GAME. THANK YOU ALBETTA. YOU ARE TRULY THE HERO GAMING NEEDS.
Happy? No?
Raiden was a defined character, not an object. He was given motivations, a character arc, and a justification for why he was in the situation he was. The same cannot be said for, I don't know, Ivy from Soul Caliber, the holy bondage virgin. I'm not joking about that last part either. Ivy, who runs around in bondage gear, is explained to be a virgin who is totally uninterested in sex. A character who exists solely to spout innuendos, who is completely uninterested in the actual act of rubbing genitals. She is sexy (as much as you can call a crazy bondage virgin sexy) solely to gratify the player, not for any other discernible reason. Similar things could be said for most females in that series, or numerous other fighting games. That is sexual objectification, throwing in random bits of sexual gratification with no justification through characterization, and it isn't just wrong, it's fucking lazy.
As for other examples, how about the B&B squad? Why the hell does that exist? I mean, you get to see them do a sexy little dance for you, and then you hear about how they murdered everyone they love? And you can hypnotize them with J-pop? Man, that's what I call a strong female character!
Or perhaps we could talk about the French chick from Peacewalker, their resident sex joke. She just shows up and talks about birds and gets moist for snake.
But no, Raiden getting tortured by Ocelot (like every other character in the series) and then stripped naked for a couple screens as one part joke, one part theme reinforcement, is the real sexism. Poor, poor, crazy ninja Raiden. I hear it even rained on the day he was born.
Happy? No?
Raiden was a defined character, not an object. He was given motivations, a character arc, and a justification for why he was in the situation he was. The same cannot be said for, I don't know, Ivy from Soul Caliber, the holy bondage virgin. I'm not joking about that last part either. Ivy, who runs around in bondage gear, is explained to be a virgin who is totally uninterested in sex. A character who exists solely to spout innuendos, who is completely uninterested in the actual act of rubbing genitals. She is sexy (as much as you can call a crazy bondage virgin sexy) solely to gratify the player, not for any other discernible reason. Similar things could be said for most females in that series, or numerous other fighting games. That is sexual objectification, throwing in random bits of sexual gratification with no justification through characterization, and it isn't just wrong, it's fucking lazy.
As for other examples, how about the B&B squad? Why the hell does that exist? I mean, you get to see them do a sexy little dance for you, and then you hear about how they murdered everyone they love? And you can hypnotize them with J-pop? Man, that's what I call a strong female character!
Or perhaps we could talk about the French chick from Peacewalker, their resident sex joke. She just shows up and talks about birds and gets moist for snake.
But no, Raiden getting tortured by Ocelot (like every other character in the series) and then stripped naked for a couple screens as one part joke, one part theme reinforcement, is the real sexism. Poor, poor, crazy ninja Raiden. I hear it even rained on the day he was born.
Hmm... It's an interesting point. Do a degree, it may be.
In MGS1, there's a sequence where you have to identify your (female) contact by staring at the asses of the patrolling soldiers as you search for the *ahem* shapeliest one. It's an odd mix of practicality and objectification. Obviously the male soldiers won't have the anatomic features of your female contact; but the only reason you know what you're looking for is because of a moment where Snake was staring at her ass.
Raiden, by the same token, was very much designed to be a 'pretty boy'; thus may have been intended to draw in a larger audience. It could very well have been that the sequence you're describing was supposed to be the 'icing on the cake' for female fans while still maintaining that odd mix of practicality and objectification.
In MGS1, there's a sequence where you have to identify your (female) contact by staring at the asses of the patrolling soldiers as you search for the *ahem* shapeliest one. It's an odd mix of practicality and objectification. Obviously the male soldiers won't have the anatomic features of your female contact; but the only reason you know what you're looking for is because of a moment where Snake was staring at her ass.
Raiden, by the same token, was very much designed to be a 'pretty boy'; thus may have been intended to draw in a larger audience. It could very well have been that the sequence you're describing was supposed to be the 'icing on the cake' for female fans while still maintaining that odd mix of practicality and objectification.
"The House of Valentine was once one of the most wealthy families in London. Isabella 'Ivy' Valentine had been raised with love by her parents. However, her father, Earl Valentine, was driven insane by his pursuit for what was called the "Key to Eternal Youth." By the time of his death, his efforts to search for immortality had drained his family's fortunes and left one of London's most distinguished families in ruins. As if to pursue her husband into death, the Countess fell ill and passed away soon after Earl Valentine's death. This left Ivy as the sole surviving member of the Valentine family.Revnak said:
In reality, Ivy was not a true Valentine by birth. The Earl and Countess found her abandoned in front of their mansion when she was an infant, and she was taken into the family as an adopted child. Ivy discovered this secret only after reading a will left behind by the Countess in her death. But this did not matter to her, for the Valentines were the only parents she knew.
Searching through her parents' possessions, Ivy found her father's diary. In it, she discovered that the "Key to Eternal Youth" her father had been pursuing was a sword called Soul Edge. He had also been obsessed with the art of alchemy. To honor her father, Ivy chose to become an alchemist and investigate Soul Edge.
During this investigation, she uncovered the true nature of the sword?it was an evil blade that feasted on souls. Vercci, Adams, Captain Cervantes; the more she read of the fates of those who had come into contact with Soul Edge, the more she became convinced of her suspicions.
"My father was driven mad by such a loathsome thing...this evil sword!"
Filled with rage and despair, Ivy vowed to avenge the death of her father by using all of her knowledge to destroy Soul Edge. Ivy realized she needed to create a weapon powerful enough to destroy Soul Edge. Her knowledge led her to successfully create a weapon capable of shifting back and forth from a whip to a sword. This weapon was merely mechanical though, and Ivy believed the only thing which could stand against a living weapon is another living weapon. She attempted to use alchemy and her own blood to give the sword life, but all attempts were unsuccessful.
Finding her alchemic skills useless, she turned to studying ancient sorcery. Every midnight, she would attempt summoning rituals, hoping to call upon a being who would grant her sword life. With every failed attempt, Ivy became more desperate and angry.
At last, one night, a large malformed arm emerged from her summoning circle. The arm, sensing her attachment to her weapon, proceeded to touch the whip sword. Ivy heard a soundless voice seemingly coming from the arm.
"I, Cross of the Pledge, shall confer upon thee the Point in the Escutcheon of Destruction - Dexter Purpure."
The ceremony came to an end and the mysterious being vanished. Under the moonlight, Ivy's sanity began to crack. She finally had the weapon she had sought to create; a living sword which would obey her every command. Calling her weapon the 'Ivy Blade', she set out on her journey to find and destroy Soul Edge."
From the Soul Calibur Wiki.
Thats a long, in depth backstory for a meaningless sex object.
Wouldn't that kind of prove that the only people getting mad about sexual objectification are the people against the objectification of only female characters? It looks hypocritical to me. I never once read anyone having a problem with that part in MGS2. It is not like there aren't many many games that have huge muscular half naked men in them as well... and you don't really hear much complaining about it. Seems to me, that developers are just putting what they think people WANT to see. So they think most guys want to see scantilly clad, large busted women, and females want to see muscular men. Obviously, there seems to be much more "objectified" women, than men...Albetta said:
The whole "problem" is getting old though.
I don't see it as objectification. I saw it as demonstrating the nature of the skeleton suit, that it's the only protection Raiden has. Then he reaches Snake, who cracks a joke at his expense. When stripped of his gear, Raiden is helpless, whereas on Shadow Moses Snake was able to escape through his own ingenuity. It's another case of the game showing how Raiden is "Snake lite" (as per the design of the Patriots) until he comes into his own at the very end.
But that's just my take.
But that's just my take.
Never thought about this, great point. I suppose this is why I always thought the whole sex/videogame thing was a nonissue.
It might be sexual objectification. However, it isn't problematic because it's a deviation from the norm.
But yeah, it sounds mostly fucking stupid.Johnny Novgorod said:
If you're trying to argue that there is a double standard in the gaming industry about nude scenes in video games you're going to have to try a lot harder then picking a nude scene from a game made 13 years ago and saying "hey look no one gave a shit when they did that!".Albetta said:
First off, you have no idea what people would say if Raiden was female, hell maybe having a female lead would have been seen as a progressive step? I don't know, and you sure as hell don't.
Second off, you're creating these phantom forum denizens fit your argument, most who argue for change (including Anita) don't say games with nude scenes are vile, they say the finer nuances of objectification and roll of female characters are having a negative impact and more varied and evolved female characters will make better games overall.
Third off, you do a horrible job arguing MGS2 is sexist in the first place, if you can't argue that correctly in the first place your entire point goes to shit.
And there are so many justifications in there for her looking like she just stepped off of her client's testicles. I never claimed that she lacked characterization (aside from the phrasing in around sexual innuendos where I made some admittedly poor word choice), I said that there was no justification for her sexualization. It is there just to pander. She may do more, but the sexualization has no context.Albetta said:
Also, I could come up with all the backstory in the world for a character I made, but if all they do is shove their dick down other people's throats I wouldn't be surprised if people just called the character "that one rapist dude." While I don't think this argument is necessary for my particular point, I'll still throw it out there.