Michelle Rodriguez to Star in Gender-Reassignment Revenge Thriller
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I can see what you're saying, I just don't think its particularly realistic to consider this one thing off limits when basically nothing else is. The list of things done to people for reasons ranging from stupid to nonexistent in movies is so vast that I do think it is kind of silly to decry this because it isn't a positive example. Half of the reason that I'm starting to believe Hollywood has finally started to get over some of their race issues is that they are actually capable of having both positive and negative examples of black people in a film instead of all one or all the other.Happyninja42 said:
The Crying Game and Sleepaway Camp are actually examples of the crappy plot twist thing I was talking about, I didn't make it super clear now that I read back. The Crying Game example is a reference to the saying "Everything you need to know about The Crying Game". The only noteworthy thing about the movie is that a character turns out to be transgender - there is absolutely no reason to watch once you know the ending, because it is a relatively unexpected twist in an otherwise wholly mediocre film. Same thing with Sleepaway Camp. It is a firmly not great slasher flick in a decade of not great slasher flicks wherein the only noteworthy part is that Angela turns out to not be the sex we thought they were. Although I guess in relation to your second point, it is never explicitly stated, but there is a firm implication that the killer in the Sleepaway Camp was being forced to live as the opposite gender by their aunt for a not-explored reason. You are correct that the Crying Game falls through in that way though.
I mostly agree with this, except the likely response from the GLAAD would be something along the lines of "yes, but there aren't any (or very VERY few) positive examples of transgender in the public consciousness to balance it out." Like others have said, the most common pop culture concept of a transgender for a lot of people is Buffalo Bill. Which can't be called a positive example. xD Now, if we lived in a Hollywood world where there were a vast cross section of media examples of positive and negative transgender characters, then I would fully agree with your opinion that the outrage is unwarranted. But, I can't think of any examples, other than Nomi from Sense8, and the main character of the tv show Transparent (never watched the show, just heard about it). Considering that's only 2, that's not a big pool of samples to use. And yes, I would agree that it is an intentional effort on the part of GLAAD to try and drive the conversation, and public opinion a certain way. But personally I don't have a problem with it, given what their intention seems to be. So to try and make sure the majority of transgender examples in media are positive ones, seems a reasonable plan to me.EvilRoy said:
As to the idea of it being "off limits" while I agree with this in concept, that nothing should be taboo in storytelling, as long as it's done with respect to the source material (which I doubt this movie will). It's a lot easier to hold that opinion when you're not part of the group being mis-represented in such an un-realistic way. I personally find myself quite annoyed/angry when I see things that I consider my self-identifying traits, represented in a negative/stupid/simply wrong way. I usually keep it to myself, but I do at least acknowledge the feeling. When the lens is pointed at you, it's hard to not feel like you're under the scrutiny of another.
I hate to be the one to inform you but people do not need a reason to justify their prejudices. You are confusing justification for bigotry as a cause of bigotry. So, it's my opinion that I am not incorrect. The vast majority of people CAN in fact tell the difference between fantasy and reality. That does not mean that people who are transphobic, or homophobic, or any kind of bigot won't latch onto those things to justify feeling they cannot handle or are confused by. No, they will in fact use it as a confirmation bias about their feelings regarding it.MarsAtlas said:
So far as Buffalo Bill is concerned: People have created a world where villains are not allowed to be interesting or different. Because they are a villain AND they are trans/gay/etc, they are not allowed to exist. There is no reasonable person in the west who sees that as a true representation of a transgender person. If you did, that is a problem with you. But I am not going to sit here and say, "OK, because 0.01% of the population thinks this is an accurate representation of a given population, then no one should be allowed to see it". No, that is kindergarten politics. Do I think more normative roles for trans actors and trans characters are in order, don't get me wrong. But that does not automatically disqualify them as villains just because there is presently a disproportionate number of trans villains. I mean, is that not what this wreck of a movie is trying to do? Even if it is extremely heavy handed, it's putting a trans character in the role of a protagonist.
That said, there has been a few movies/shows that have used transgender people in roles where they are not represented as freaks. One show that comes to mind is Sense8, which I very much liked. An excellent movie that did that as well was Predestination. In both of these movies a trans person is the protagonist and they are not represented as freaks. But we can't just not make movies and shows with trans characters simply because it doesn't match some arbitrary set of standards for what is realistic.
People don't need this to justify their prejudices anyway. They have an ever burgeoning amount of reality TV shows that will more readily justify their prejudices against trans people than this movie ever will.
No, this is exploitation. THIS [http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3007302/?ref_=nm_flmg_act_11] is depiction. A lovely, touching movie with trans protagonist. See the difference?Lightknight said:
By lovely, I don't mean funny, btw. It's lovely bc of the way it handles the subject.
MarsAtlas said:
....I...heh, yeah, well, I find it funny that you try to use a character that is apparently a serial killer as a "positive" example of a transgender. I also find it funny that you try to make them sound like less of an evil person by saying. "Yeah she's a serial killer, but not a psychotic one" xD I'm not being sarcastic here, I genuinely found those amusing, while at the same time I disagree. I wouldn't call a character who is a serial killer as a positive example of any kind. Dexter for example, might be a fun protagonist in a show, but I wouldn't at all consider him a role model, or a good example of people with emotional disconnection issues due to PTSD. xD
On a different note, what is a "swimmer" ? You describe it as some kind of operation perhaps? I dunno, the context of it confuses me, and I'm not familiar with the lingo for the transgender community about operations and whatnot.
On a different note, what is a "swimmer" ? You describe it as some kind of operation perhaps? I dunno, the context of it confuses me, and I'm not familiar with the lingo for the transgender community about operations and whatnot.
Also, I think another thing, aside from the "trans people are always portrayed as villains/killers" is the other flip side of this of "trans people are always portrayed as mentally messed up" Forget the moral justification of a character killing others for one reason or another, the various examples (aside from the two I mentioned in my above post) of trans characters I can think of, all had a serious mental issue, usually linked to their gender issues in the movie. Now if you are constantly showing a group of people as being mentally unstable, and either due to ignorance, or intentional action, imply that it's because of their gender identity issues, you are again coloring the public narrative about the subject in a negative way. Which is what they are upset about. And if I hadn't seen first hand, examples of people who believe what they've seen on TV and movies as being reality, I would be less concerned with this. But I've met multiple people, who believe some frankly disturbing and terrifying things, because that's how they always see it on TV. So it must be true right? So what would they think if the only trans characters they see are either insane killers, or just regular crazy/insane without the body count?
Similar to the "Villains are always played by British people" trope, this might actually be something for Brits to ***** about, if there weren't plenty of other examples of British characters being upstanding people, or just regular people in general. There is a broad spectrum of examples of them, not just one type. But with trans characters, currently, there is very little diversity in representation in media. So yes, they are pushing to put more positive examples out there, to balance out the negative ones.
At what point will it be "ok" to represent them as whatever without causing a social tornado? Probably never. But I don't see that for any group really. No matter the demographic, when they see their group, specifically represented in a negative way, intentionally focusing on their groups aspect as part of the negativity, yeah it's going to upset them. This isn't a LGBTQ specific behavior, we all do this to some degree or other. If people made another "Trekkies" movie with the same level of inconsideration to the people represented, you can be damn sure that the Trek community will hit the social medias to say "We're not all like that! Stop showing us as being closeted, basement dwelling nerds!" *shrugs* That's just the reality of living in a world with global communication systems and free speech. People are going to say stuff that other people might not want to hear.
Sidenote: You should check out Sense8. I really enjoyed the show. I seem to be in a minority in that regard of people on this site, but I found the show quite enjoyable. Not sure if you are interested in transgender/LGBTQ subjects specifically, or just participating in the discussion, but if you do enjoy those types of characters, I would recommend it. I think they did a pretty good job with the gay and trans characters presented in the show. They let them have their sexual identity without it being the only aspect of who they are in the show. They also had some of the funniest bits in my opinion. xD
I'm sorry, I can't play that game where I break down every statement, it's not ever worth the time or effort, you should probably keep that in mind.MarsAtlas said:
1. Yes, some people are ignorant. I personally feel that most people are not though. That is my opinion and we may just have to agree to disagree. We can't have society run on what a few ignorant people will think when the majority understand the situation.
2. We have come a long way from the 1950's. It was in '72 when homosexuality was taken out of the DSM, we have also moved significantly forward from that point. Even in light of how far we have progressed from those times, people still choose to believe that homosexual men are synonymous with child molesters. No amount of political correction in movies, television, books, the internet... will change those peoples minds.
I don't have to justify what ignorant people choose to believe, and that is really the main issue. They choose to believe it. If they want to see a more accurate depiction of any of the LGBT community, there are literally a bunch of alternate TV stations they could watch to see that. That means that no matter how much you wipe out bad depictions, they may simply choose to not watch the accurate depictions that exist because it doesn't fit their narrative or what they want to believe. And furthermore, media should not lower itself to creating content to correct the lowest common denominator, which in this case would be bigots who have chosen to ignore the truth and believe the fantasy. Should we make sure no one puts dragons in movies because there may be some people out there who think dragons are real because of it? No, that doesn't make any sense.
3. I never stated transgender in relation to the main character. The main character IS an unwilling participant in what turns them into a Transsexual. I completely understand the difference between the two. Gender and sex, while overlapping in some ways are not the same thing. You are the one who is misinformed here, not I. I intentionally typed that in that manner so as not to exclude anyone from my statement because it stands in both cases in my opinion.
4. When I stated reasonable people, that means they live their lives and make decisions based on reason. So, no, no reasonable person would see a bad depictions of of the LGBT community in a movie and think that is accurate. If they do, they are not using reason, therefore are not reasonable people.
5. A movie isn't going to make someone who thinks LGBT people are lesser people vote against them. Just like if we only were privy to truly accurate depictions of these people, then those same people would still not vote in favor of their rights.
Yeah, I've heard about that particular movie, and the issues with it. Never seen it myself, as I didn't find the story to be too interesting. Movies about sexual identity and coming to terms with who you are, aren't my kind of movie that I seek out. *shrugs* Has nothing to do with the persons orientation, I just don't find those kind of movies all that interesting.MarsAtlas said:
Probably is. Video games do tend to streamline characters down to a single characteristic even more than movies/tv do.MarsAtlas said:
Except for the fact that the ignorant are the majority. Just for example when the news comes out that I'm trans, the first three questions I generally get asked by a cisgender person are as follows: "Are you gay?". "If I saw you naked would I be able to tell?", and "Does this mean you're a pedophile/chomo?" In order they are, not that person's business, not that person's business and inappropriate, and a grievous insult along with being inappropriate and stupid. It's not a what a few ignorant people think, it's what can easily be crammed down the throats of the ignorant masses, because in fact the majority of people are ignorant on trans folk and trans issues. Period.Baresark said:
Except that the overtly bigoted preach to ignorant masses, who generally can be swayed with ignorant and hate hateful diatribes into voting for those bigots. When it comes to trans acceptance we haven't progressed much, and the L&G part of the LGBTIQ+ Community generally works against all parts that aren't directly the L&G factions. Infact trans acceptances has sort of back slid because of a constant assault from our supposed L&G allies.Baresark said:
1) You don't have to justify the opinion of anyone else, or your own for that matter. Still that doesn't mean you get free reign to decide if an issue important to the trans community is indeed important.Baresark said:
2) Alternative TV stations seem great, except they're generally not included in extended basic cable, which is what most people have, and most people don't know of their existance, let alone know if they want to watch them.
3) Your non-sequitur argument about adds nothing, because there aren't real dragons who get attacked in the streets by bigots using fictional depictions to weaponize their own hatred. Because it's not about believing a fantasy, it's about using fiction as a valid defense for one's own bias, which is generally accepted by the majority of people.
The problem that the character isn't transsexual, transsexuals are ones who actively seek sexual reassignment surgery, getting the surgery actually doesn't have a baring. The character is mutilated by a rogue surgeon. Still this is going to be used to reinforce the bias of many loud bigots with political platforms, the utilization will undoubtedly splash back badly on the trans community, there is no question about this. It's been done with too many other bad representations, it'll be done with this one, and like in the past, this method still works.Baresark said:
A person is reasonable, people are not, besides the methods that are going to be used in conjunction with attacks using this bad representation are not going to be appeals to reason. Because attacks on the LGBTIQ+ community, especially the trans community are never reasonable, they usually rely on faith, and they generally work. Because when it comes right down to it, ignorance spawns fear, fear is unreasonable, and it's not hard to exploit that, even with blatant lies.Baresark said:
The problem is that a the representation by it self is not the key problem, it's how it's going to be added to an assortment of weapons that are being used to deny a segment of the population rights. The trans community is actively denied rights too, companies can refuse to hire me, I can be refused service at any business, I can be refused housing, and so on, all because I'm trans and it's still legal to discriminate against trans folk. A bad, or good representation is not going to change anyone's mind, but it's effective as another tool against, or for the subject in question.Baresark said:
On Topic: Well this figures. It's a stupid plot, with stupid ideas about what it takes to transition, and it's being used in a blatantly offensive matter that people will fail to fully wrap their heads around. While this is going to be just another tool for the anti-trans types, it's not the worst thing that ever happened to the trans community. Still it's massively insulting, while at the same time it highlights the nasty shortsighted transphobic notions still being clung to in film and television. That last part is the worst part, that media still refuses to take us seriously, which in turn helps everyone not take us seriously either. It's really depressing and frustrating that the trans community is still a joke and an easily exploited stereotype to so many.
If you think people are so bad, that is your burden to bear, but it's an ignorant opinion. People are far more accepting of alternate lifestyles than people like give them credit for. If you don't see that, that is on you. I never said there were hurdles to go over, or problems to fix, but to say what you say wreaks of ignorance of the significant changes that have occurred only the last 30 years.KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime said:
Considering that I have gay and lesbian friends who have lost jobs and housing for their sexuality, considering that I was slowly tortured to keep a job because I was out as trans before my identification caught up to me... That very situation lost me my job... Oh and it being illegal to discriminate on the grounds of sexuality, or really anything else in housing and work? Well guess what? That requires taking legal action, which most people in the LGBTIQ+ community cannot afford. It didn't stop many of my friends, or my self for that matter, from losing jobs, or/and becoming homeless... It hasn't stopped many of the friends I have who lead alternative life styles from being beaten, or persecuted by their friends and families when they came out. The significant changes you cite, are a fiction... You call me, someone whose lived such experiences, someone who knows many, many others who have lived similar and worse experiences ignorant? No, you're the one being ignorant here. If you think the mistreatment has ended because a few laws have passed and a few celebrities are out and in the open with it... You're spouting the same line as people who say racism is over, and it's a line of total and complete isolation from, as well as ignorance of the issues that face people in reality.Baresark said:
The issue is that you refuse to accept how much better it has gotten and how it's getting better all the time. In Nigeria that number is 97%, which is most likely what the number was in the US in 1950. Now, more than 3/4's of the US are fully accepting of gay lifestyles and gay rights. But yeah, lets concentrate on the 25% who are literally powerless to stop gay rights because they are in the minority. And as people like you move forward and your lifestyle and situation falls into the more normative spectrum for the average person, it will get better and easier. You raging against a bunch of people on a forum is not going to improve your life though.MarsAtlas said:
No one has ever said that it's easy. That said, I literally had never heard of that Buffalo Bill thing till you brought it up, I read up on it, and I commented on it. Makes me think that you might be spending too much time looking at things that are aimed at hurting you.
I don't care if you are transgender. It literally doesn't mean anything to me. I'm sorry you have to go through the things you have to go through. You should understand that your experiences are not representative of everyone. It's also disingenuous to heap these issues on a few movies over the last 60 years and say that people see those things and believe them as fact. You give too much power to a few movies when the responsibility of those things sits on the shoulders of the bigots who have a problem with people like yourself. I have a large group of friends and I don't know anyone who hates gay people, or dislikes transgender people as a whole.
Also, the fact that it's rogue surgeons giving unwanted sex reassignment surgeries to people doesn't change what it is. They went from male to female. No matter how you spin it, that is a person who is a transsexual (I literally never ever ever said transgender, as there is a well established difference). The fact that the person is an unwilling participant shows just how incredibly contrived the whole plot actually is. I can't help but feel it's not for anything but shock value.
Edit: Oh, I see. I thought you were saying you were transgender. My bad. Clearly my arguments aren't going to change but it's good that I actually understand who you are talking about.
I never claimed to understand you. I don't claim to understand anything that other people go through. For the record, no one I know would ever do that to someone. I work at a company that doesn't discriminate as there is literally about 20 gay people and one transgender person who works in my building alone (we are a multinational corporation). Hell, at my local diner there is this huge transwoman who is newly out post surgery and she lives a perfectly normal social life (though I can't speak for her home life, clearly). I only know what I see. I'm sorry you and your friends have to go through that. But I am not ready to sit here and label everyone monsters at the word of a single person. I am old enough that I have seen the change happen, seen the improvement, though I know that doesn't mean much to you now, maybe one day it will.KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime said:
Technically couldn't the Ace Ventura movie with the American football and the dolphins be described as a "Gender reassignment revenge thriller?"
Well your experiences are, at the very least, anecdotal, furthermore they represent a scarce minority of people. Twenty two people in total a scientific sample size does not make. Further more you don't even know their day to day issues, the issues that tempt people to put a knife to their arm and cut straight up their ulnar artery. Just because things have become marginally better does not, by any stretch of the imagination, mean that they're good... The progress you cite does not stop trans folk from being raped in alley ways, form being beaten near to death, or out right murdered in cold blood, all just for being trans. It doesn't stop parents from sending their children to "corrective therapy" camps where their children are blatantly tortured, many times to the point of suicide.Baresark said:
Is gay acceptance up? Sure, so is tolerance of gay folk, but that doesn't mean they have it good by any stretch, especially when many still openly discriminate against them. Trans acceptance is far worse off, and trans tolerance doesn't lead acceptance by a significant margin either. To put it in clear terms, a 30 second barf take in response to the outing of a trans person is still considered perfectly fine. For that matter accusing trans people of being rapists, just for being trans, is totally fine. To make a road side freak show in the media of a trans person is totally fine. It's also totally fine that the gay and lesbian community routinely throw the trans community under the bus for their own political needs... In case you missed it, our own supposed allies will betray us at the drop of a hat for a tiny droplet more of tolerance. Not to mention that a huge number of prominent feminists are rabidly against trans folk...
I was amazingly extremely lucky that I happened to have not only understanding family, but a vast majority of accepting friends too, along with access to an accepting and understand psychologist in my young years. Do you know how many other trans people I've met with who had the first two factors, excluding other trans folk they'd met mind you, absolutely none... I don't know a single trans person who is out who hasn't been emotionally, or/and physically abused by their friends and family for being trans. Regarding the ones who aren't out, I don't know a single one who could honestly say their closest friends and family wouldn't at least abandon them for being trans, at very best. That includes friends I know in person and friends I know online.
You came here and dismissed the rampant open transphobia of film and television as not a problem, well it might not be, but it's a symptom of a far larger problem. Not a year has passed for me when at least one trans person I knew committed suicide due to the despair of being isolated from their family and long time friends has caused. Not a year has passed when at least one trans person I know was murdered in cold blood and the perpetrator got off the charges on a gay/transpanic defense. I am so sick of people trying to tell me things are better, because while it might be true, it's not nearly good enough. Every call to me saying that things are better, is a call to shut the mouths of people are suffering for daring to be them selves. Gay and lesbian tolerance is better off now than ever, yet a horrifying number of my homosexual friends have been abandoned and disowned by their friends and family. I scarcely know a trans person who has contact with their family and every, last, single one of them got acceptance years after they were abandoned. That's just regarding the ones that are out. Half of those I know that are still in the closet face possible death at the hands of family members if they come out...
Better simply is not good enough, it's not anywhere remotely close to good enough.