Misandry

[lacktheknack]

Women do this too. A lot. The only difference is because it's so much easier for them to be a PUAs they don't need a discussion page. Shitty people whom use others, especially for sex, will always exist. They have always been shitty misogynists/misandrists whom hold distorted viewpoints on the other gender. This is not news.

But he's talking about people who hold distorted viewpoints on their OWN gender. Which is something that could be explored more thoroughly.

 

[Bocaj2000]

Women do this too. A lot. The only difference is because it's so much easier for them to be a PUAs they don't need a discussion page. Shitty people whom use others, especially for sex, will always exist. They have always been shitty misogynists/misandrists whom hold distorted viewpoints on the other gender. This is not news.

But he's talking about people who hold distorted viewpoints on their OWN gender. Which is something that could be explored more thoroughly.

What was quoted by OP was self loathing. Self-loathing is not the same as misandry.

 

[Bocaj2000]

double post

 

[THM]

Wait wait wait, is there really a no boys allowed STEM career thing at schools (I'm assuming you mean Science Technology Engineer and Mathematics).

That is indeed what I mean by STEM, and yes, it did happen - a quick search should find you the original article (if you prefer not to go through an MRA site for it.) IIRC, it was just in one school in either America or the UK, but it was intended as a pilot project.

Sexism does not exist in a vacuum and outdated gender roles affect everybody. I begun to ask myself for every feminist topic if it's a woman issue or a person issue; can it affect a man and how; what is the other gender's equivalent to the problem; etc. This brings me to the OT:

Women do this too. A lot. The only difference is because it's so much easier for them to be a PUAs they don't need a discussion page. Shitty people whom use others, especially for sex, will always exist. They have always been shitty misogynists/misandrists whom hold distorted viewpoints on the other gender. This is not news.

Congratulations, you have hit the nail directly on the head - your internetz will be delivered in 3-5 business days.

These are exactly the points that everybody needs to keep in mind when dealing with this subject; we ALL have the capacity to be extremely shitty towards everyone else, whether or not it has anything to do with their gender, and there will always be a fringe element willing to take it the ugliest extreme.

It is not just men.

 

[Bocaj2000]

Sexism does not exist in a vacuum and outdated gender roles affect everybody. I begun to ask myself for every feminist topic if it's a woman issue or a person issue; can it affect a man and how; what is the other gender's equivalent to the problem; etc. This brings me to the OT:

Women do this too. A lot. The only difference is because it's so much easier for them to be a PUAs they don't need a discussion page. Shitty people whom use others, especially for sex, will always exist. They have always been shitty misogynists/misandrists whom hold distorted viewpoints on the other gender. This is not news.

Congratulations, you have hit the nail directly on the head - your internetz will be delivered in 3-5 business days.

These are exactly the points that everybody needs to keep in mind when dealing with this subject; we ALL have the capacity to be extremely shitty towards everyone else, whether or not it has anything to do with their gender, and there will always be a fringe element willing to take it the ugliest extreme.

It is not just men.

Thanks for internetz. Very self affirmation. Much confidence. Wow.

 

[The Lunatic]

Snip

You're just describing misanthropy. Misanthropy ascribing negative traits to humans, regardless of gender.

Which is exactly what he's doing.

I said it's a "Comment" not an assessment. Comments are often opinionated.

 

[BoredRolePlayer]

Wait wait wait, is there really a no boys allowed STEM career thing at schools (I'm assuming you mean Science Technology Engineer and Mathematics).

That is indeed what I mean by STEM, and yes, it did happen - a quick search should find you the original article (if you prefer not to go through an MRA site for it.)

Sexism does not exist in a vacuum and outdated gender roles affect everybody. I begun to ask myself for every feminist topic if it's a woman issue or a person issue; can it affect a man and how; what is the other gender's equivalent to the problem; etc. This brings me to the OT:

Women do this too. A lot. The only difference is because it's so much easier for them to be a PUAs they don't need a discussion page. Shitty people whom use others, especially for sex, will always exist. They have always been shitty misogynists/misandrists whom hold distorted viewpoints on the other gender. This is not news.

Congratulations, you have hit the nail directly on the head - your internetz will be delivered in 3-5 business days.

These are exactly the points that everybody needs to keep in mind when dealing with this subject; we ALL have the capacity to be extremely shitty towards everyone else, whether or not it has anything to do with their gender, and there will always be a fringe element willing to take it the ugliest extreme.

It is not just men.

I'll take your word on that, but wow that is amazing that someone would even entertain that idea. Sorry male child you were born with a penis so you are not allowed to join this event because women are so few and discriminated in this field, so we will discriminate you.

 

[Zen Bard]

Required reading for this thread:

It's brilliant and absolutely hysterically written. Essentially a self-described "nerdy" Rolling Stone writer infiltrates the Los Angeles PUA community and chronicles his adventures.

It's neither misogynistic nor misanthropic, just an introspective look at the people in it.

And did I mention it's hysterical?

 

[Thaluikhain]

* Feminism without MRA is an ignorant incomplete movement and vice versa.

Sexism does not exist in a vacuum and outdated gender roles affect everybody. I begun to ask myself for every feminist topic if it's a woman issue or a person issue; can it affect a man and how; what is the other gender's equivalent to the problem; etc.

Er...not sure I'm reading you correctly here.

As you saying that it's important to deal with the gender roles affecting men, as well as those affecting women, and feminism doesn't? So that the MRM, as a male equivalent of feminism, is needed.

Because feminists have been trying to deal with the problems of how gender roles affect men for years. Like you say, sexism doesn't exist in a vacuum, but this has been well-known for ages.

These are exactly the points that everybody needs to keep in mind when dealing with this subject; we ALL have the capacity to be extremely shitty towards everyone else, whether or not it has anything to do with their gender, and there will always be a fringe element willing to take it the ugliest extreme.

The other problem is that it's very easy to say "everyone does it" (which, to an extent, is perfectly true), and dismiss the differences in how different groups do it.

By comparison, the UK, US and Australia all have had police shootings of unarmed civilians, but the issue works very differently across those countries. Saying "all those police forces do it", while unarguably true, tends not to be very useful.

It is not just men.

Nobody said it is.

 

[THM]

It is not just men.

Nobody said it is.

No in so many words, but that does appear to be what the OP is saying about where a majority of the man-hating is coming from.

EDIT: Edited to be clearer.

 

[Thaluikhain]

It is not just men.

Nobody said it is.

No in so many words, but that does appear to be what the OP is saying about where the man-hating is coming from.

Er, the OP ended with "There is plenty of misandry out there, I just think most of it is coming from other men."

Now, you can argue about whether it really is most or not, but clearly Jux is not saying "all".

 

[THM]

Er, the OP ended with "There is plenty of misandry out there, I just think most of it is coming from other men."

Now, you can argue about whether it really is most or not, but clearly Jux is not saying "all".

Okay, fair enough; my post has now been edited.

 

[Someone Depressing]

The first one is just one guy with little self-respect and lots of insecurities about himself blaming the entire female population. He isn't the victim of anything but himself, though that still presents a problem more sociological than simple "gender politics" or feminism.

A lot of so-called misandry comes from men, which is why the patriarchy is damaging: it holds just as many unrealistic expectations for men as it does women, but for women it's more pronounced because they are objectified.

It's where the idea that girls are pretty and boys have to be tough comes form.

 

[Ihateregistering1]

The funniest part about the whole "PUA community" thing is that it basically got started (or at least really took off) following the publishing of Neil Strauss's "The Game: Penetrating the Secret Society of Pick-Up Artists".

But here's the kicker: if you actually read "The Game" (and I'd recommend it, it's actually a very good book) the entire point of the book was about how Strauss became a PUA thinking it'd make him happy to finally be able to have sex with lots of women (he was really unsuccessful with women prior) but, in fact, it didn't make him any happier, and in a lot of ways made things worse.

The PUAs in the book aren't depicted as being happy with how things have turned out for them, in fact they're often depicted as extremely depressed and sad despite the fact that they are far more successful with women than they were years before. Hell, the book is primarily focused around "Mystery", who is supposed to be this legendary PUA, but he's depicted as being so depressed he's borderline suicidal.

So basically, it sort of illustrates the entire problem with the PUA thing: a lot of it is guys believing that their low self-esteem or personal issues will be magically fixed by getting women to have sex with them, when it doesn't really work like that.

 

[Jux]

It is not just men.

Nobody said it is.

No in so many words, but that does appear to be what the OP is saying about where a majority of the man-hating is coming from.

EDIT: Edited to be clearer.

In discussions about misogyny, some of the more common derailments I encounter are 'what about men/misandry' or 'it's not a gendered issue' (the second one is especially common when talking about harassment of women online). In the case of the former, I see things like misrepresentation of Sarkeesians tweet about toxic masculinity, usually something along the lines of 'shes demonizing men/saying all masculinity is toxic' as a sort of 'but the other side does it too' justification.

And that got me thinking about actual misandric modes of thought cropped up. Which brings us here now. There are plenty of damaging and pigeon holing ideas about what it means to be masculine, but most of what I see is coming from people like Roosh (the pua I quoted). Are there feminists out there that legitimately hate men? Sure. I don't know any, but anyone can be hateful. One of the reasons why I focus not on them but on predominantly male groups is because this is the sort of stuff that has the potential to do lasting, self perpetuating harm to men. Not the person that says all men should be castrated. Yea, that person is an asshole, but I'm not seeing the wider effect there.

 

[Thaluikhain]

And that got me thinking about actual misandric modes of thought cropped up. Which brings us here now. There are plenty of damaging and pigeon holing ideas about what it means to be masculine, but most of what I see is coming from people like Roosh (the pua I quoted). Are there feminists out there that legitimately hate men? Sure. I don't know any, but anyone can be hateful. One of the reasons why I focus not on them but on predominantly male groups is because this is the sort of stuff that has the potential to do lasting, self perpetuating harm to men. Not the person that says all men should be castrated. Yea, that person is an asshole, but I'm not seeing the wider effect there.

To add to this, your stereotypical man-hating feminist, well, they overtly hate men. A lot of the hatred of men by men seems to come from men who don't see it.

In theory, at least, given that they'd see hating men as a bad thing, they could be persuaded to change their views. In practice, unfortunately, they tend to deny everything.

 

[Jux]

The funniest part about the whole "PUA community" thing is that it basically got started (or at least really took off) following the publishing of Neil Strauss's "The Game: Penetrating the Secret Society of Pick-Up Artists".

But here's the kicker: if you actually read "The Game" (and I'd recommend it, it's actually a very good book) the entire point of the book was about how Strauss became a PUA thinking it'd make him happy to finally be able to have sex with lots of women (he was really unsuccessful with women prior) but, in fact, it didn't make him any happier, and in a lot of ways made things worse.

The PUAs in the book aren't depicted as being happy with how things have turned out for them, in fact they're often depicted as extremely depressed and sad despite the fact that they are far more successful with women than they were years before. Hell, the book is primarily focused around "Mystery", who is supposed to be this legendary PUA, but he's depicted as being so depressed he's borderline suicidal.

So basically, it sort of illustrates the entire problem with the PUA thing: a lot of it is guys believing that their low self-esteem or personal issues will be magically fixed by getting women to have sex with them, when it doesn't really work like that.

It's been a number of years since I read the book, but yea, that was my take away from it too. There was a point in time my self esteem was in the shitter. I had a long history of depressive episodes (last major episode was five years ago), and was awful with women (more accurately, I was socially inept in general). I consider myself lucky though. I never bought into that culture, largely because I had good, supportive people around me.

So I guess I have a personal stake in this somewhat too. I don't want to see people falling into these self harming modes of thought because I've bern there and I know how hard it is to break free of.

 

[SOCIALCONSTRUCT]

But what does that tell us about how he feels about men? Instead of rejecting this line of thinking and looking for mutual respect and intimacy with his partners, or even rejecting the idea of being treated like an object (if his premise were true to begin with. hint: it isn't), he instead resigns to debasing himself, and claiming that others need to do the same (if they want to have sex). This lack of respect for himself (and men in general) is almost as saddening to me as I find his lack of respect for women disgusting.

I think you're misreading Roosh here and it is inaccurate to describe it as misandry. What I believe Roosh is saying is lamenting the state of society while at the same time acknowledging the necessary callousness that is required to adapt to such an environment. In other words, he is saying this is how things are now, act accordingly.

To me it seems overly grim but then again I can't step inside his head and view his life so who is to say? The larger underlying premise, that changes in the economy and culture have culminated in human relations that are more coarse and transactional, seems plausible.

 

[SonOfVoorhees]

Only thing i can add really is that woman themselves need to decide what they want as a gender. At the moment their are woman complaining that photos of breasts on twitter (or where ever site it is) should be banned. An another group saying it should be allowed and been backed by Madonna and others. Some woman want prostitution/stripping banned as its degrading and other say its their choice what they do with their body and should be legal. Thing is, whatever way they agree, men and boys are watching all this. When Kim Kadashian or Miley Cirus think its fine to strip off to make money then how can anyone expect young girls and boys not to see these things as normal? Woman are to busy bitching at each other instead of accepting that freedom means giving woman the right to do things you hate as its their choice. Same thing with gaming as well, yes you can have woman characters that are great but also need to accept that some will be more sexy. We dont see Annita attack the media over woman in sexy poses or singers using sex and their bodies to sell records? Photoshopping woman in magazines? Woman mags that love to insult and pick at every little fault a real womans body has? Personally games are the least of their worries as no girl has had an eating disorder based on a game character, but has for magazines models.

Also one thing woman forget, men and boys are seeing the exact same stuff as they are. If woman see a photoshopped woman as a real body image to aim for. So do men see these as what real woman look like.

 

[Bocaj2000]

* Feminism without MRA is an ignorant incomplete movement and vice versa.

Sexism does not exist in a vacuum and outdated gender roles affect everybody. I begun to ask myself for every feminist topic if it's a woman issue or a person issue; can it affect a man and how; what is the other gender's equivalent to the problem; etc.

Er...not sure I'm reading you correctly here.

As you saying that it's important to deal with the gender roles affecting men, as well as those affecting women, and feminism doesn't? So that the MRM, as a male equivalent of feminism, is needed.

Because feminists have been trying to deal with the problems of how gender roles affect men for years. Like you say, sexism doesn't exist in a vacuum, but this has been well-known for ages.

Let me help you connect the dots. Feminism is a very divided movement with many different types that focus on many different tings. I'm not saying that the MRM is needed, just that focusing exclusively on women with gender relations is an incomplete viewpoint. I know there are types of feminism that has been dealing with male gender disadvantages. My point was that there are also many types of feminists that don't scoff at the idea then men face any form non-privileged aspects of their life.