Mojang Offered Up Scrolls Trademark, Bethsoft Said "No"

ChocoCake

New member
Nov 23, 2008
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There's probably thousands of similar lawsuits like this all the time. People sue people, it happens.
It certainly isn't going to stop me from enjoying either one of their games.
Hell, I'm playing Rage right now and I'll probably go on a Minecraft server later tonight.
 

SonicKoala

The Night Zombie
Sep 8, 2009
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megaman24681012 said:
I think people are missing the point of the article.

Notch - while was setting himself up for failure by trademarking a word - has announced that he is WILLING to give up the trademark case so to settle the debacle, yet Bethesda is still determined to sue Notch for the sake of the trademark, WHICH HE WANTED TO GIVE UP ANYWAYS!
The point of this article is that he is no longer trying to trademark the word "Scrolls" - however, he still wants to use the word "Scrolls", followed by a subtitle, in his upcoming game. The simple use of this word is arguably infringing on the trademark which Zenimax already own, that being "The Elder Scrolls" (thus the reason Zenimax are still going to court). He's giving up his attempt at gaining legal ownership of the word "Scrolls" - he is not giving up use of the word itself. He's hoping that Zenimax will simply "let this slide", and let him name the game as such.
 

Lilani

Sometimes known as CaitieLou
May 27, 2009
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Jumwa said:
Lilani said:
My, this is becoming a regular "he says, she says" situation, huh?
For that to be the case Bethesda/Zenimax might actually have to say something. As it is so far, only Notch has been wooing the court of public opinion, while the other party is keeping it strictly professional.

Until something more comes out of this than Notch milking gamer sympathy, I'm not too eager to wade in.
But you know whether or not there is an ounce of truth to his claim's Bethesda is going to respond with something. To not to would mean what he said is true--in exactly the way that he said it happened. Even if it is completely true, they will find some way to twist the phrasing around to make it sound more innocuous.

As you said, we are entering into the battle for community support stage of this fight. Now that Notch has opened the floodgates, more and more mud flinging will commence until they settle or the hearings begin.
 

Fuselage

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Nov 18, 2009
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Okay, lets clarify some things.
Mojang and Zanithesda are both in the wrong here.
Mojang trademarked "Scrolls" in:
Entertainment services in the form of electronic, computer and video games provided by means of the Internet and other remote communications device; internet games (non downloadable); organising of games; games (not downloadable) played via a global computer network; education and entertainment services in the form of cinematographic, televisual, digital and motion picture films, radio and television programs and shows; preparation, editing and production of cinematographic, televisual, digital and motion picture films, radio and television programs; entertainment services in the form of electronic, computer and video games provided by means of the Internet, mobile telephone and other remote communications device.
Basically they covered everything. Now, what do you think this means?
Every single thing that Zenithesda might want to do including an Elder Scrolls Movie
This is just a theory but it is most likely they got upset by that since brand recognition counts most in the movie industry.
Now onto Zenithesda should never of sued in the first place but I can understand because this could become another Tim Langdell situation. What? You say Mojang, a soft and cuddly indie creator could never do such a thing? Well have we ever actually been in the sandpit long enough to know Mojangs disposition other then Minecraft?

More insight: http://kotaku.com/5846111/mojang-v-bethesda-or-i-hate-it-when-mommy-and-daddy-fight
 

GoodApprentice

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Apr 27, 2010
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Naming a product is often a challenge, whether it be a band name, website, movie, book, dish detergent etc, etc. Hell, there is an entire area of study dedicated to copyright law.

If you plan on making money with a product, you have to be careful you don't step on any toes with your product's name. If you do have naming issues, then you choose a different name. That's how it works, plain and simple. If your product is new, it's up to you to ensure it has a unique name.

If "Scrolls" is causing grief with BethSoft, then choose a different name. That's what you do; it's what you have to do by law. Attempting to window-dress the word scrolls while still predominantly using it in the name is not exactly a compromise.

No one has a personal history with his new game and will feel cheated by a name change. If it isn't named "Scrolls" who will really care.
 

Atmos Duality

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Mar 3, 2010
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Were it not hearsay, that's a compromising for either side.

Either Mojang is lying, or Bethesda outright refused to settle the case outside of court.
 

fletch_talon

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Nov 6, 2008
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I love the attitude of some people in this thread.

Mojang were wrong to try and trademark the word "Scrolls". It would lead to them being able to file law suits against Bethesda/Zenimax and prevent anyone else from using the word.

Zenimax/Bethesda are right to sue Mojang and force them to abandon the title "Scrolls" because it makes up a fraction of their game title.

Am I the only one seeing the inconsistency here? I don't care if they have to do it to protect their copyright, what they're doing is still fucking ridiculous.
 

ThunderCavalier

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Nov 21, 2009
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Maybe I'm being just a superstitious and overanalytical nut, but who thinks this is seekritly an attempt by Bethesda to obtain Minecraft from Markus by forcing him into bankruptcy with this lawsuit and then offering him money in exchange for the license and game?
 

Vrach

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Jun 17, 2010
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Andy Chalk said:
big, money-sucking corporation with a bored legal department drops the lawsuit hammer on the little guy
Wondering why Notch keeps being referred to as the little guy. We're talking about the person that had a row with PayPal cause he had some hundreds of thousands of dollars in his accounts frozen by them, who then replied to the question of "so why was all that money there" with a "oh, I just didn't have the time to collect my hundreds of thousands of dollars during the past few weeks". And mind you, the smaller the studio, the smaller the money split, so yeah.

OT: Yeah, if true, really not sure what this is all about. Would love to hear Bethesda's response on it tbh o_O
 

PinkiePyro

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Sep 26, 2010
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at first I was ok Bethesda had a resonalble reason to harass notch and Mojang but now something smells uber fishy


here's hoping that my new theory is wrong
that theory being Bethesda is trying to run them into the ground financially so they can buy them and take over
but of course i am suspisous of big companys (see my theroy that google is slowly trying to be supreme dictator of the internets)
 

subtlefuge

Lord Cromulent
May 21, 2010
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I'm going to go start working on a fantasy turn-based strategy game called 'Zelda'.

I don't have as much money as the big companies, so people will definitely chime in with their expert legal opinions about how the two games are nothing alike, and how this is just like the 'edge' case.
 

-Dragmire-

King over my mind
Mar 29, 2011
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... At this point I want Bethesda's point of view on this, preferably a dev team member, not a lawyer.

Did they make a public statement or have they remained completely silent on this matter?
 

subtlefuge

Lord Cromulent
May 21, 2010
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ThunderCavalier said:
Maybe I'm being just a superstitious and overanalytical nut, but who thinks this is seekritly an attempt by Bethesda to obtain Minecraft from Markus by forcing him into bankruptcy with this lawsuit and then offering him money in exchange for the license and game?
I started to write a long response, but basically it's not possible, and Notch can easily afford legal costs for this and 10 or so more lawsuits in cash that he has on-hand.

You can't leverage a hostile takeover of a private company based on an unsure trademark infringement lawsuit on a product that has not made any money yet.

In reality, both sides are going to be losing a small chunk of money, but I'm still doubtful that it will actually go to court.
 

Keith Reedy

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Jan 10, 2011
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This is stupid, the PR equivalent to shooting ones self in the foot with a 50 cal. It doesn't matter who is in the right and yes it would have saved a lot of trouble if Notch just changed the name, bit this doesn't change the fact that it shall make Bethesda look like captain asshole picking on the little kid at the playground. Bethesda's PR guys have probably all died of heart attacks by now.
 

Deef

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Mar 11, 2009
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Scrolls: [subtitle] does not solve the problem. The problem is the whole "Scrolls" part, why does no one seem to understand that? If I were Zenimax I would've rejected that too.
 

lovest harding

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Dec 6, 2009
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TheKasp said:
So because Notch claims that everyone thinks that is the truth?
As long as I don't know more than Mojang is willing to tell I don't take any sides on this.
Agreed.
It's hard for me to say one is right when all we hear is Notch shouting from the rooftops his side of the story.
And we all know that no one ever over-exaggerates their own point to make themselves look right (no offense to Notch, just a blanket statement of all people).
 

RealDarkelfguy

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Mar 29, 2009
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I don't believe Notch's post for a second. Why? Well, first of all, according to Notch, Mojang made the offer to drop the trademark when Bethesda contacted them. Except Bethesda contacted them over 6 months ago, confirmed in one of Notch's own blog posts. In fact, in Notch's initial blog post regarding the trademark dispute, the only offer he mentioned was:

We suggested a compromise where we'd agree to never put any words in front of "Scrolls", and instead call sequels and other things something along the lines of "Scrolls - The Banana Expansion".
Source: http://notch.tumblr.com/post/8519901309/bethesda-are-suing-us-heres-the-full-story

If Mojang had, in fact, offered to drop the trademark, why did he make no mention of it in that initial blog post? And why did he wait until now to mention it?

Furthermore, it's more than a little bit suspicious that this claim from Notch would come immediately after an article on Kotaku revealed the extent of his trademark, provided a lot of factual evidence of why ZeniMax would be seeking this lawsuit, and basically ripped the "But Mojang's just a victim!" argument to shreds. Indeed, this new claim by Notch started as a response to Russ Pitt's article on Kotaku. The timing of this, particularly given the established timeframe of the Bethesda and Mojang trademark dispute, suggests that it's more a publicity stunt in order to regain some sympathy in the public arena after a damaging article than actual truth.

Source: http://kotaku.com/5846111/mojang-v-bethesda-or-i-hate-it-when-mommy-and-daddy-fight

It's also quite telling that Notch, while he has been more than happy to post all of the legal documents he receives from ZeniMax on Twitter, has yet to actually provide any legal documents from his side of the case. There is, of course, a reason for this, because for the most part, it's just good legal sense not to publicly reveal legal documents. However, if Mojang made a legitimate offer to ZeniMax agreeing to drop the trademark, then there would be legal documentation of it. And since the offer was supposedly rejected, there wouldn't be much harm in posting this legal document as evidence of Notch's claim. Without legal documentation though, Notch's claim means literally nothing (a typical case of "he says, she says" which, in a court of law, holds little merit).

And finally, to put to rest once and for all Mojang's supposed "innocence" in this mess, here's the Mojang trademark on the word "Scrolls" in full:


IC 009. US 021 023 026 036 038. G & S: Computer games; video games; computer software; computer and video games software; computer software downloaded or downloadable; computer software publications downloaded; interactive entertainment software; data recorded electronically from the Internet; data recorded in machine readable form from the Internet; discs, tapes, cartridges, CD-ROMs and other magnetic, electronic or optical media, all bearing computer games software or video games; electronic amusement apparatus for use with television receivers; electronic games apparatus; home video game machines

IC 025. US 022 039. G & S: Articles of clothing; footwear and headgear; t-shirts; shirts; trousers; sweatshirts; jackets; knitwear; hats; caps; neckwear; shoes; socks; garments for women; garments for men; garments for children; apparel parts and fittings for all the aforesaid

IC 028. US 022 023 038 050. G & S: Games, toys and playthings; electronic games apparatus; audio visual games on computer hardware platforms (not for use with television receivers), handheld computer games equipment, hand-held video game machines; parts and fittings for all the aforesaid goods; board games; electronic games machines; equipment sold as a unit for playing card games; electronic hand-held game unit; game equipment sold as a unit for playing aboard game, a card game; stand alone video output games machines, and manipulative puzzles; playing cards; board games; card games; three-dimensional puzzle; parts and fittings for all the aforesaid goods

IC 041. US 100 101 107. G & S: Entertainment services in the form of electronic, computer and video games provided by means of the Internet and other remote communications device; internet games (non downloadable); organising of games; games (not downloadable) played via a global computer network; education and entertainment services in the form of cinematographic, televisual, digital and motion picture films, radio and television programs and shows; preparation, editing and production of cinematographic, televisual, digital and motion picture films, radio and television programs; entertainment services in the form of electronic, computer and video games provided by means of the Internet, mobile telephone and other remote communications device
Source: http://tess2.uspto.gov/

I'm not sure how you're supposed to defend this kind of trademark, it's excessively broad and ill-defined. It includes everything from board games, to all kinds of clothing, to tv shows, to radio shows, to actual handheld devices, to puzzles. It's quite simply a ridiculous trademark, one that does, in fact, conflict with other trademarks besides ZeniMax's. And, speaking of ZeniMax's trademarks, go look those up (use the link I provided and do a search for Scrolls), you'll find they're all to the point and cover *actual* products and services that ZeniMax provides. Compared to Mojang's trademark, which includes a number of products and services that would never be used by an indie card-battle game, ZeniMax's trademarks are quite moderate and constantly in use.

Really, the Mojang defense crusade needs to end, they're not "perfect saints" and they're certainly not the victims in this dispute. And for those wondering, no, I'm not a Mojang hater, I love Minecraft as much as the next guy (and I spend way too much time playing it). But I do hate this perpetuation of ignorance that seems to constantly be coming from the Mojang camp, and it's high time some actual facts were considered.