Molyneux: Wii and Move Are the Same

[Jumplion]

Condense

Okely dokely then, just a little observation I made. I have no idea if what I was saying was true, but it does seem to (hypothetically anyway) have some capabilities that the Kinect has.

But now I want to go over to your debate with Mornelithe if that's okay with you, specifically this part;

Move MAY be accurate for aiming, but that is dependant on VERY good programming and other factors. My experience with other control systems and image processing means there will have to be a balance between:
-Computational Power
-Input Lag (latency / teh lag)
-Accuracy/Precision

1. Of course you need to have good programing to make a game around the Move, Wii, Kinect, or just about any system.
2. From what I have heard/read, the Move is exact 1:1 controls, no issues with accuracy or input lag.

What I find weird is that you're saying that the Wii is so much more advanced (maybe it is, but whatever) and so much more accurate when no games have ever done what you've said the Wii does. I find it difficult to believe that the Wii was so accurate that it needed a peripheral (Motion+) to make it do what it was supposedly supposed to to in the first place. I have yet to see any game for the Wii that shows exactly 1:1 movements, but with the Move (and Kinect to be fair) I have seen 1:1 all the time (though I've seen a large amount of input lag with Kinect-[sup]damnit inner fanboy![/sup]).

 

[VanityGirl]

Molyneux, shut your mouth please. Let's not state the obvious, mk?

 

[Treblaine]

Condense

Okely dokely then, just a little observation I made. I have no idea if what I was saying was true, but it does seem to (hypothetically anyway) have some capabilities that the Kinect has.

But now I want to go over to your debate with Mornelithe if that's okay with you, specifically this part;

Move MAY be accurate for aiming, but that is dependant on VERY good programming and other factors. My experience with other control systems and image processing means there will have to be a balance between:
-Computational Power
-Input Lag (latency / teh lag)
-Accuracy/Precision

1. Of course you need to have good programing to make a game around the Move, Wii, Kinect, or just about any system.
2. From what I have heard/read, the Move is exact 1:1 controls, no issues with accuracy or input lag.

What I find weird is that you're saying that the Wii is so much more advanced (maybe it is, but whatever) and so much more accurate when no games have ever done what you've said the Wii does. I find it difficult to believe that the Wii was so accurate that it needed a peripheral (Motion+) to make it do what it was supposedly supposed to to in the first place. I have yet to see any game for the Wii that shows exactly 1:1 movements, but with the Move (and Kinect to be fair) I have seen 1:1 all the time (though I've seen a large amount of input lag with Kinect-[sup]damnit inner fanboy![/sup]).

Well, one thing I was trying to point out is how Wii's sensor-bar tracking is INHERENTLY EASY to Program for, the data is accurately and quickly processed even with the low-spec (and low cost) hardware in each wii-mote, putting no burden on the core CPU.

And I do hope I made my point clear that the standard Wii-mote (with sensor bar) was ideal for POINTING primarily. I see that as the most anticipated feature of Motion controls, people are most excited about aiming with Move-mote in Killzone 3, less so for grenade throw gestures or some other 1:1 weapon tracking.

Considering how cheap the motion-plus add-on is ($18/£14) I don't think it is unreasonable to include it in this comparison - and as far as I know Move does not have an upgrade-slot. Now I will concede that Move DOES have the advantage in apparently perfect 1:1 spacial tracking but the Wii MotionPlus takes it 90% there as this video demonstrates:

Spoiler

I wouldn't say Wii is more advanced, technically the Move Setup is FAR more technically advanced. It is just my philosophy of design that makes me personally think Playsation's Move Suite is over-engineered for its most anticipated uses (aiming and flick gestures). Wii with sensor bar... it just seems like design genius to me, like the computer mouse: genius in simplicity.

"What I find weird is that you're saying that the Wii is so much more advanced and so much more accurate when no games have ever done (that)"

err, maybe I should clarify: aiming

Wii is king for rail-shooters, the Wii has proven itself since 2006 how effective it is at quick and precise aiming of guns, arrows, laser-beams and so on:
-House of the dead: Overkill
-Dead Space Extraction
-Resident Evil 4, Umbrella & Darksider chronicles
-Metroid Prime 3 (and GC re-releases)
-Mario Galaxy and Zelda made great use of Wii's aiming as well.

IMHO, even with Move and Kinect coming out, Wii-mote is still second only to PC's mouse for aiming, pointing and selecting.

I suppose to be fair, Molyneux needs to SHUT THE FUCK UP and show some proper appreciation for what Sony is trying to do different. It's clearly trying to do what hardcore gamers thought the Wii-mote was supposed to be. A virtual sword fighting/boxing device simulator. 1:1 tracking for EVEN MORE complexity and control.

Really the Wii-mote is trying to be more expansive and flexible while intuitive and easy to setup. On it's side it can be a classic SNES comptroller, pointed it can aim projectile weapons or select/draw things, it can use intuitive gestures to TRIGGER attacks. Motion plus goes the extra step, not for 1:1 tracking but what I'd call "1:~1"; good enough to tell if Link want to make a vertical or a diagonal sword slash... but not that Link is directly parroting your moves, that could look a bit dumb. After all, not every gamer can be as elegant with a sword as a Hero like Link, no, the developers make smooth animations for Link to follow.

To be honest, I don't think either Microsoft or Sony or most developers really understand the Wii's success. A very good analogy I've heard is they are like the Birdmen who wanted to fly, only instead of studying the dynamics of flight (Wii's business model and philosophy) they just glued wings to their arms and flapped their wings "like a bird"... so many crazy people jumped off cliffs flapping their feathery arms thinking they would fly.

I've been dropping this link a lot but this is the article where I heard that "Birdman" concept applied to Wii and wider gaming industry:

http://malstrom.50webs.com/birdman.html

It's a long one but very good article even if it took me more than one go to finish reading it, it changed how I look at the Wii... changed how I looked at the entire Video and Computer gaming industry.

 

[Treblaine]

Not sure about Move (or Kinect's) Face/gender tracking, but the Wii has been able to do a significant amount of tracking thanks to the Sensor Bar with its pairs of Infra-Red LEDs the sensor on each Wii Mote (a cheap "web-cam" configured to only see infra-red). Basically the same but reversed.

Move must tell distance (Z axis) by the apparent size of the orb (obvious reference to PS3's use of camera) (hard as it needs good and fast edge detection processing) while Wii-Mote only needs to measure observed distance between POINTS of Infra Red light which is so easy the visual image processing is done INSIDE the wii-mote and raw data pumped out. Wii's setup can also easily detect angle or "canting" of the controller by the angle of a line drawn between the points.

The WiiMote's greatest strength is accurately telling where the wii mote is pointing relative to the screen, by position of the LED points in the camera's field. This actually gives Wii an edge in games that depend on pointing such as Rail Shooters, archery games, and of course; FPS games. It's just inherently good at that task.

To Playstation 3's Camera it is not "obvious" where the Move-mote is actually pointing at the screen, it is not "objective", it needs to "deduct" the point of aim by the change in orb position and angle of handle (by accelerometers) to figure out where point of aim on screen might now be. The problem is extrapolation and error magnification, while being more processing heavy and inherently more laggy than Wii's setup.

Move is ideal for tracking the Controller in space for gestures and movements, like boxing or sword fighting, but poor for aiming anything. So in that sense the Playstation Move is MORE casual oriented than the Wii!!
In a way their system is likely to actually be LESS accurate for "hardcore" games like First Person Shooters than the Wii was AT LAUNCH! That's without the MotionPlus upgrade, just the standard sensor bar, and it goes hugely against Sony's claims of "we're hardcore cause we're more accurate".
Maybe more accurate than Kinect. But for a game LIKE Zelda where I might switch to Bow and Arrow for precise aiming I'd much rather have the sensor bar based aiming than Move's setup.

later I said this:

Know nothing about the PS Move? Are you saying that I am uninformed? Have I made some errors? What point have I got my facts wrong on? I have gone to considerable effort researching all the public information about PS-Move and I think my assertion is as good as any.

I never said Move could not do aiming... I just said it wouldn't be very good at it, or at least not as good as Wii. And that goes beyond how it appears to function in a controlled demoing environment. How is the lag? What graphics potential had to be scaled back? What was the expenditure in getting it to work? Are there any limits (like min or max range).

Move MAY be accurate for aiming, but that is dependant on VERY good programming and other factors. My experience with other control systems and image processing means there will have to be a balance between:
-Computational Power
-Input Lag (latency / teh lag)
-Accuracy/Precision

Improving any of one will cause a hit to the other two. So less computational resources (more to spend on graphics processing) then Accuracy + Lag are negatively affected, for the same resources input lag could be reduced by lowering accuracy requirements (or vica versa).

So Move is somewhat crippled with using Move for aiming, the issue of lag has not been properly addressed (there are objective measures of this), nor an objective comparison to Wii-mote or mouse-aim accuracy. There is also the issue of how much computational resources are used up for adequately quick and precise point mapping, how that might cut into games quality or performance.

From an engineering perspective, Sony's design is not very elegant for the task of pointing. I hope you understand the principal of extrapolation, how that magnifies errors. I've heard from interviews of developers say the data fed out tells them where the Move-mote is in space, they have to do the extra legwork of coding for where it might be pointing at the screen through extrapolation.

Nah, Move's greatest strength will be in sports and fighting simulators, throwing swords around and stuff. Or the oft demonstrated painting games, requiring large movements 1:1 over in front of the screen. Note how the Move-Archery game needs a pair of Move-motes, likely for improved accuracy (calculate line between two orbs points for point of aim). Me thinks most of Move's killer apps will be dependant on buying a Second $50 Move controller *gulp*. Suddenly Kinect's $150 doesn't seem so bad, but a complete Wii is only $160 online and thanks to Nintendo's elegant approach to motion, they are able to sell at a profit on each one.

If you are wondering, my preferred setup is a good ol' Computer Mouse. I wish consoles used it more, it is favoured by the "hardcore" PC gamers and has Demonstrated incredible potential with casual market, I mean just consider how many BILLIONS of computer users around the world are familiar and confident with a mouse interface. Pop Cap games and other companies have made hundreds of millions of dollars exploiting the casual gaming PC market with web-browser based games, utilising the mouse interface. Plus, mouse is the cheapest out of all the aiming interfaces and IMHO the most accurate technologically and ergonomically. Though, it lacks the appeal of being a new and exciting experience and you are confined to a flat surface like a desk.

Edit: For god's sake, I NEVER said nor even hinted this was the Move controller by itself or Sans-Eye Camera. Earlier I mentioned the use of the camera, and repeatedly refrede to "appearing"

As I said, you know little about Move, only theory and what might be. When you were originally speaking of it, you weren't even including the Camera in the discussion. Highly unlikely, as you won't be doing anything with Move, without the Camera.

I'm not trying to attack you here, but I really think you should give Move a tad more time, since you seem to have done just that with the Wii. Inform yourself first, then come to conslusions.

As for PC/Console etc, dude, what the hell? When did this become about PC vs Console? We're talking about Motion Controls on consoles, specifically, Wii and Move being the same thing. (Which they are not). If you've ever read any of my posts, most people know I prefer PC over anything. But...that's beside the point, and really not a conversation for this particular thread.

Anyway, I have no real vested interest in this conversation, but given your typical indepth work on most of what you comment on (being serious), I just found it odd that you had so much information on the Wii, and so very little on Move...and were actually trying to argue latency/processing issues between the two.

Please refer to the bold text in the above quote stream. Proof read and double check what people have ACTUALLY said if you say they did or did not say something. I think I have given Move EXTENSIVE analysis and fair comparison, again, everything I have been talking about has been under Move's ideal conditions of PS-Move controller with a properly calibrated PS-Eye camera.

Sorry for going "off topic" mentioning computer mouse, I was just giving my two pence on my ideas for controller interface both for PC and suggesting that Consoles should adopt it. This NEVER became about PC vs Consoles. Can PC gaming be even MENTIONED on a thread concerning consoles without it turning into a Verses argument? I'm just saying.

Please, I have gone into ball aching detail about Sony's Move Suite, I don't know what else there is to add.

Did I forget to mention how accelerometers (aided by Magnetometers to correct for drift) in the handle of the Move Controller are used to detect orientation of the controller in space. That still does not help as it does not DIRECTLY tell where the controller is actually pointing relative to the screen. Sony's comparatively low emphasis on aiming games (Socom 4 and Time Crisis got surprisingly little face time) adds credence to this.

 

[Treblaine]

Please refer to the bold text in the above quote stream. Proof read and double check what people have ACTUALLY said if you say they did or did not say something. I think I have given Move EXTENSIVE analysis and fair comparison, again, everything I have been talking about has been under Move's ideal conditions of PS-Move controller with a properly calibrated PS-Eye camera.

Sorry for going "off topic" mentioning computer mouse, I was just giving my two pence on my ideas for controller interface both for PC and suggesting that Consoles should adopt it. This NEVER became about PC vs Consoles. Can PC gaming be even MENTIONED on a thread concerning consoles without it turning into a Verses argument? I'm just saying.

Please, I have gone into ball aching detail about Sony's Move Suite, I don't know what else there is to add.

Did I forget to mention how accelerometers (aided by Magnetometers to correct for drift) in the handle of the Move Controller are used to detect orientation of the controller in space. That still does not help as it does not DIRECTLY tell where the controller is actually pointing relative to the screen. Sony's comparatively low emphasis on aiming games (Socom 4 and Time Crisis got surprisingly little face time) adds credence to this.

See, again, this is all theory, you actually aren't going into as much detail with your research of Move, as you did the Wii. You weren't fully aware of how capable the camera was, only assumed some sort of relationship based upon the size of the ball (EXCUSE ME! Who says everything is just assumptions?! I am going DIRECTLY by what Sony officials have stated in demonstrations, interviews and expert technical analysis). There are plenty of indepth discussions of Move and how it works, rather than just information you pulled off of Wiki (I know, I looked there also), check the footnotes and the sources where they got their information and there's much much more detailed breakdowns of the Camera/Move relationship (well so what, someone else has written something about Move, but you are not giving ANYTHING that actually counters what I have said).

And yes, obviously it would tell it the direction the thing is pointing, with the part you grip always being in a fixed position, or did you completely miss every single tech demo they've ever shown with it? (Seriously, what is it with this remark, I RECONFIRM I understand the purpose of the Accelerometers in the handle then you TWIST IT AROUND like I have no idea what is going on) Did you miss the entirety of Sony's E3 presentation in 2009 and again in 2010? Cause, seriously, I'm entirely positive I saw the bow, the wand, the ping pong paddles, hell even the Golf Club followed the direction the controller was facing. Or hell the flashlight demo in 2009.

What did I actually claim? Do you realise what I am ACTUALLY claiming is NOT countered by all the dozens of demonstrations of Move's 1:1 tracking. Again I MUST reierate this demos are deceptive, there are other things to consider:
-PS Move may use up a significant portion of CPU power to replicate Wii-mote's direction-finding ability
-Latency (in relation to proportion of CPU power used) has NOT been properly analysed. Wii is a "low to no latency system" as it is largely processed by specialised hardware.
-Accuracy: now the 1:1 spacial tracking is clearly "good enough" but any error is magnified by extrapolation.

Let me explain to you extrapolation: Extrapolation is a mathematical term for how you determine the answer from outside of the data range. Every system has errors, PS3 could be fine with 5mm error for 1:1 spatial tracking, but that could be magnified 2x to 3x in extrapolation to find point of aim on a screen 9 feet away, it is NOT ENOUGH to simply say "it knows where it is pointing", because it is the WAY it collects that data that matters! it's the difference between shooting from the hip and aiming down the sights

If Sony's Move has to resort to overlaying "smoothing algorithms" and predictions to reduce extrapolation errors for pointing that is BAD as Wii-pointing is 100% relative and unmodified of your input. I am highly suspicious of the SOCOM 4 demo which everyone plays like ass and aiming appears slow and stodgy, it doesn't more at all like Wii's snappy pointer. I mean if you have one of those mini-keyring lasers point it at a wall and move it around, Wii-pointing moves in the same way but suspiciously Move does not. Indicates "smoothing algorithms" to reduce errors and effects of latency. I don't want an algorithm making assumptions on where I "intended" to point my aim.

You say I am not going into much detail? I have written like over 5'000 words on Move now in this thread alone. I have been talking about how it is DIFFERENT from Wii! And yes, that does mean - in some areas - the Move Controller is inferior to Wii-mote... and this is Move WITH THE EYE CAMERA!

Let me say this finally, the Playstation Move is entirely possible to completely replicate the point-designation ability of the Wii-mote with the same low latency, but I am WORRIED it will only be able to do that through brute force. It will just use significant portions of it's CPU to do the complex calculations quickly enough which will have a cost in games... and it is a burden for developers that is likely to see many cutting corners.

Give me a break Treblaine, what you claim, and what they've shown live are at complete odds with each other.

I have patiently explained it to you as carefully as possible. If you don't understand and refuse to consider mathematical conepts such as errors and how they are magnified by extrapolation, or the inherent difficulties with latency which you are NOT countering... then what else can I do.

Please DO NOT just state again how amazing Sony's 1:1 spatial tracking demonstrations are, those dodge the issue of actual pointing ability and you are looking at them simplistically rather than critically.

 

[EightGaugeHippo]

His biggest complaint is neither of them have dogs.

 

[Treblaine]

Are you still replying to this? It should be pretty obvious that my issues with what you're critiquing, is lack of knowledge on the device. You can trump up as many numbers and categories for failure as you like. But, you have nothing to back up your 'impression' of how the device works. Maybe it's because it isn't out yet, and once it is this information will become more available to the public. I've seen the Wii function live, so I'm pretty familiar with that. I've seen the Move work on live TV and video clips, but nothing Live. So, who knows maybe your impression will change then.

Funny, I never stated 'again' that Sony's spatial tracking demo's were amazing, hell, I never said they were amazing in the first place. They're demo's. They show what the products are capable of. All I can say for sure, is, they work. And from what I've seen, they work better and more accurately than the Wii. Guess we'll just have to wait and see before we can assuage (or prove) these fears of yours.

I will end with saying that Sony's internal studios have said that Move's overheard is paltry, runs on less than 1 SPU. But, we'll have to wait and see I guess. It's apparent that the lack of detail is due to lack of public availability.

We are clearly having some communications errors; I write one thing yet you read and conclude something completely different. It is as if you are just skimming over the words of my post, largely ignoring the body of it, and making assumptions about what I am saying. I have corrected you one, I have corrected you twice... and third time, you're out. It's a waste of time saying anything more about Move if you refuse to actually read it or take the time to understand what I have actually posted.

You contradict me, and you contradict yourself within the same paragraph. You use fallacies and leaps I logic to counter my detailed comparison. You rely on sweeping statements like "it works" and "Move's overhead is paltry" with NO SPECIFICS on just how much Move is asked to do. Is the Overhead still paltry when Move is touting all it's advertised features and what about lag?

though I will concede, we won't know much till tech experts like Digital foundry actually get their hands on it and start finding it's limits.

Though I think from what is known, what I know, and what I have explained, one should be cautious about Move and I would not pre-order it or get ones hopes up too much.

 

[nick n stuff]

he ain't wrong...for once

 

[UberNoodle]

As for 1:1 tracking - the Wii is perfectly capable, but hasn't had the ability properly ultilised yet. I have WM+ and have no problems with it. I never have to recalibrate it on games like Red Steel 2. It's fine. Honestly, I think that 1:1 is a great for tech demos but in a game, could quite easily annoy. Sony's devs might say, 'let's give it 1:1 because it would be AWESOME!' and Nintendo's devs might say 'Let's give it 1:1 if it works better than a more guided alternative'.

He's right, my mates are sick of me stating that the move is wii but with glowing balls but it's true!

Well really all Sony did was reverse the Wii's system. The camera was moved from the remote to the TV and the two LEDs on the sensor bar were changed to the glowing orbs. And basically the camera photographs the orbs many times per second and the system calculates the position of the remotes based on the size of the orbs. That is why they have to be there. The only thing that Move has over the Wii is that its camera could also incorporate simple Eyetoy type interaction as well, though not as well as Kinect, which has specialised cameras for such things. With the WM+, there's not much difference between Nintendo and Sony's solutions, despite how much Sony claim otherwise. They tend to conveniently leave out the WM+ and even the Nunchuck when they do their comparisons.