Molyneux: Wii and Move Are the Same

[Sirch.Cajnos]

So basically Molyneux is praising Microsoft for ripping off the SONY Eye-Toy

i love how the avatar completely goes with this statement
OT: i feel i would be being redundant by adding anything else to this discussion

 

[Not G. Ivingname]

My thoughts exscately.

 

[nefrone]

Yeah yeah, and the Dualshock is a ripoff of the nes controller. Seriously, who the fuck cares? Show me what you can do with it and then I'll decide if I'll buy it or not.

And besides, Molyneux has been spewing out shit his whole career, I'm really surprised that people still listen to anything he says. So even if he is stating the obvious now, seriously: Don't listen to Peter Molyneux

 

[Magnalian]

Got to agree, I think. I fail to see what's so different about Move and the Wiimote.

However, MS haven't done anything new, either. Kinect is just the EyeToy with a 1 Up Mushroom.

Plus, I can't imagine how'd they'd work something like Kinekt into more hardcore titles. Sure, for casual games it can be fun to flail about like you've got ants in your pants, but nobody wants to do that when they're playing RPGs or FPS's.

 

[Wakefield]

I hope he sees the potential for kinect and a possible Black and White 3. casting spells with hand gestures, training your monster and building structures. What I first thought when I saw kinect,"This will revolutionize rts games on consoles."

My god. Your right. This never even occurred to me. Hopefully you are right this would be awesome.

 

[Heart of Darkness]

Obvious bias is obvious.

No, seriously, Molyneux, this isn't news. There's a reason why I thought the Move should have been called the PS3mote--many gamers already knew that it was a shameless technological copy/pasta designed to cash in on the Wii's expanded audience. To an extent, so is Kinect, just with more arm-flailing.

 

[Jumplion]

I just realized, the Move is essentially the Wiimote and Kinect at the same time.

I don't know if people realize this, but to use the Move the PlaystationEye camera for the PS3 is required. The camera tracks the big ball thingamajig on the Move remote ("Momote"?) but this also, theoretically, allows the camera to keep track of the player itself.

So really, it's a bit of Kinect and the Wii.

Huh....can't believe nobody noticed that yet.

 

[Dogstile]

If they make the controls work for Halo Wars i'll be so happy.

 

[DTWolfwood]

he is good at pointing out the obvious XD

Yeah, did anyone think they were different? I'm confused.

to his credit, one does use a camera and the other doesn't XD

 

[Treblaine]

That's is an outrageous thing to say! They are hugely different on one key and possibly the most important point:

[HEADING=2]Price[/HEADING]

Seriously now, Upgrading your PS3 to be fully Move Capable would cost around $120 on top of your $300 system. You can guaranteed it'll cost even more in UK (but we relatively pay more for Wii here as well).

Seriously, Nintendo has a MUCH better motion peripheral strategy here, releasing the cheap and proven accelerometer and IR-tracking based Wii-mote, then leaving room to upgrade with high precision gyroscope (Wii MotionPlus) when that tech has fallen to an economical price of what - $20 per upgrade? I mean everyone has seen the Wii MotionPlus demos and full games which easily match the precision of Sony's Move controller.

You could also argue it is better to have the optical receiver (in the case IR camera) located in the controller to find points fixed to the screen rather than the other way round and using the visual-light spectrum to track an emitter on the controller. The only advantage Move has is the ability to show back to you your own TV room... and I find that counter to the escapism aspect of gaming.

Sony pretty much is FORCED to use this less than ideal approach (though it is neat they are making use of their stocks of PS-Eye peripherals), most likely to avoid MORE scathing allegations of plagiarism or possibly even lawsuit for breach of patents. I'd prefer it if Sony could just make a carbon-copy of Wii-mote with MotionPlus and maybe a few more conveniently placed buttons.

In fact, The PS Move may even be LESS capable than Wii-Mote+ MotionPlus as Wii uses a highly precise gyroscope in combination with accelerometers, while Move has no gyroscope, only a Magnetometer which is less precise, it's apparently only there to counteract error-drift that you'd get with pure accelerometers to track orientation.

Bottom Line: I'm probably going to get a Nintendo Wii this Christmas rather than Move or Kinect.

Especially if Nintendo has a price cut... ooooh if Nintendo Wii price matched Kinect or Move peripherals, they've got me. I'll drink the Nintendo kool aid for that.

 

[Atmos Duality]

"It would be very easy for them to have created something like the Wii, but instead they did go that extra mile and they said, 'No, we're going to make that huge step.' I think the real benefits are going to be shown in the next wave of titles that come out."

No. No they didn't. Microsoft still went with the motion control copout. They still are not going to do anything truly epic with it because Microsoft has already admitted that Kinect is not for "hardcore" games. You are still a mouthpiece for a corporation, because we all know that you cannot go on the record and say something that is even potentially bad about Microsoft.

 

[poiuppx]

Meh. Feel free to pre-judge, sir. While we're on that bandwagon, allow me to pre-judge Fable III as being overhyped and unable to deliver on all its promises.

...you know, since we're stating the probably-obvious without actual hands-on experience to inform us properly and all.

 

[Treblaine]

In fact, The PS Move may even be LESS capable than Wii-Mote+ MotionPlus as Wii uses a highly precise gyroscope in combination with accelerometers, while Move has no gyroscope, only a Magnetometer which is less precise, it's apparently only there to counteract error-drift that you'd get with pure accelerometers to track orientation.

Uh yeah, you're kind of leaving out the Camera though? Which has head and facial recognition, gender recognition and tracks the huge glowing ball on the front of the device at 1:1 on the x,y, and z axis? Move has to have the Camera, so you can't exclude it from the package. And the camera works pretty damn well for the handful of games it uses. Trials of Topoq being my favorite. Simple, but addictive.

Not sure about Move (or Kinect's) Face/gender tracking, but the Wii has been able to do a significant amount of tracking thanks to the Sensor Bar with its pairs of Infra-Red LEDs the sensor on each Wii Mote (a cheap "web-cam" configured to only see infra-red). Basically the same but reversed.

Move must tell distance (Z axis) by the apparent size of the orb (hard as it needs good and fast edge detection processing) while Wii-Mote only needs to measure observed distance between POINTS of Infra Red light which is so easy the visual image processing is done INSIDE the wii-mote and raw data pumped out. Wii's setup can also easily detect angle or "canting" of the controller by the angle of a line drawn between the points.

The WiiMote's greatest strength is accurately telling where the wii mote is pointing relative to the screen, by position of the LED points in the camera's field. This actually gives Wii an edge in games that depend on pointing such as Rail Shooters, archery games, and of course; FPS games. It's just inherently good at that task.

To Playstation 3's Camera it is not "obvious" where the Move-mote is actually pointing at the screen, it is not "objective", it needs to "deduct" the point of aim by the change in orb position and angle of handle (by accelerometers) to figure out where point of aim on screen might now be. The problem is extrapolation and error magnification, while being more processing heavy and inherently more laggy than Wii's setup.

Move is ideal for tracking the Controller in space for gestures and movements, like boxing or sword fighting, but poor for aiming anything. So in that sense the Playstation Move is MORE casual oriented than the Wii!!
In a way their system is likely to actually be LESS accurate for "hardcore" games like First Person Shooters than the Wii was AT LAUNCH! That's without the MotionPlus upgrade, just the standard sensor bar, and it goes hugely against Sony's claims of "we're hardcore cause we're more accurate".
Maybe more accurate than Kinect. But for a game LIKE Zelda where I might switch to Bow and Arrow for precise aiming I'd much rather have the sensor bar based aiming than Move's setup.

 

[Treblaine]

Not sure about Move (or Kinect's) Face/gender tracking, but the Wii has been able to do a significant amount of tracking thanks to the Sensor Bar with its pairs of Infra-Red LEDs the sensor on each Wii Mote (a cheap "web-cam" configured to only see infra-red). Basically the same but reversed.

Move must tell distance (Z axis) by the apparent size of the orb (hard as it needs good and fast edge detection processing) while Wii-Mote only needs to measure observed distance between POINTS of Infra Red light which is so easy the visual image processing is done INSIDE the wii-mote and raw data pumped out. Wii's setup can also easily detect angle or "canting" of the controller by the angle of a line drawn between the points.

The WiiMote's greatest strength is accurately telling where the wii mote is pointing relative to the screen, by position of the LED points in the camera's field. This actually gives Wii an edge in games that depend on pointing such as Rail Shooters, archery games, and of course; FPS games. It's just inherently good at that task.

To Playstation 3's Camera it is not "obvious" where the Move-mote is actually pointing at the screen, it is not "objective", it needs to "deduct" the point of aim by the change in orb position and angle of handle (by accelerometers) to figure out where point of aim on screen might now be. The problem is extrapolation and error magnification, while being more processing heavy and inherently more laggy than Wii's setup.

Move is ideal for tracking the Controller in space for gestures and movements, like boxing or sword fighting, but poor for aiming anything. So in that sense the Playstation Move is MORE casual oriented than the Wii!!
In a way their system is likely to actually be LESS accurate for "hardcore" games like First Person Shooters than the Wii was AT LAUNCH! That's without the MotionPlus upgrade, just the standard sensor bar, and it goes hugely against Sony's claims of "we're hardcore cause we're more accurate".
Maybe more accurate than Kinect. But for a game LIKE Zelda where I might switch to Bow and Arrow for precise aiming I'd much rather have the sensor bar based aiming than Move's setup.

So what you're really saying, is you know a ton about the Wii's capabilities and processes, but none about the Move. Gotcha. Unfortunately, the demoing they've already done with FPS' that currently exist (ie, not initially made for move) would suggest otherwise. When you get a better grasp of what it can do, in fact, no, wait. Go back and look at the Camera itself. Move is useless without it. Together though? It's going to be highly accurate. What, you prefer pushing a stick to the side, and waiting for the game to catch up with your desired pace?

I'm not knocking the Wiimote, kinda hard to do so in the face of such success right? But you're simply bashing at something you really know nothing about. Not nearly as in-depth as you've given Nintendo's machine. Hardly seems fair really.

Know nothing about the PS Move? Are you saying that I am uninformed? Have I made some errors? What point have I got my facts wrong on? I have gone to considerable effort researching all the public information about PS-Move and I think my assertion is as good as any.

I never said Move could not do aiming... I just said it wouldn't be very good at it, or at least not as good as Wii. And that goes beyond how it appears to function in a controlled demoing environment. How is the lag? What graphics potential had to be scaled back? What was the expenditure in getting it to work? Are there any limits (like min or max range).

Move MAY be accurate for aiming, but that is dependant on VERY good programming and other factors. My experience with other control systems and image processing means there will have to be a balance between:
-Computational Power
-Input Lag (latency / teh lag)
-Accuracy/Precision

Improving any of one will cause a hit to the other two. So less computational resources (more to spend on graphics processing) then Accuracy + Lag are negatively affected, for the same resources input lag could be reduced by lowering accuracy requirements (or vica versa).

So Move is somewhat crippled with using Move for aiming, the issue of lag has not been properly addressed (there are objective measures of this), nor an objective comparison to Wii-mote or mouse-aim accuracy. There is also the issue of how much computational resources are used up for adequately quick and precise point mapping, how that might cut into games quality or performance.

From an engineering perspective, Sony's design is not very elegant for the task of pointing. I hope you understand the principal of extrapolation, how that magnifies errors. I've heard from interviews of developers say the data fed out tells them where the Move-mote is in space, they have to do the extra legwork of coding for where it might be pointing at the screen through extrapolation.

Nah, Move's greatest strength will be in sports and fighting simulators, throwing swords around and stuff. Or the oft demonstrated painting games, requiring large movements 1:1 over in front of the screen. Note how the Move-Archery game needs a pair of Move-motes, likely for improved accuracy (calculate line between two orbs points for point of aim). Me thinks most of Move's killer apps will be dependant on buying a Second $50 Move controller *gulp*. Suddenly Kinect's $150 doesn't seem so bad, but a complete Wii is only $160 online and thanks to Nintendo's elegant approach to motion, they are able to sell at a profit on each one.

If you are wondering, my preferred setup is a good ol' Computer Mouse. I wish consoles used it more, it is favoured by the "hardcore" PC gamers and has Demonstrated incredible potential with casual market, I mean just consider how many BILLIONS of computer users around the world are familiar and confident with a mouse interface. Pop Cap games and other companies have made hundreds of millions of dollars exploiting the casual gaming PC market with web-browser based games, utilising the mouse interface. Plus, mouse is the cheapest out of all the aiming interfaces and IMHO the most accurate technologically and ergonomically. Though, it lacks the appeal of being a new and exciting experience and you are confined to a flat surface like a desk.

 

[Treblaine]

I just realized, the Move is essentially the Wiimote and Kinect at the same time.

I don't know if people realize this, but to use the Move the PlaystationEye camera for the PS3 is required. The camera tracks the big ball thingamajig on the Move remote ("Momote"?) but this also, theoretically, allows the camera to keep track of the player itself.

So really, it's a bit of Kinect and the Wii.

Huh....can't believe nobody noticed that yet.

Yes, Kinect DOES have a camera, but it tracks people thanks to a pair of "depth-sensing lenses" these essentially work the same as radar, they map a rough outline of all the viewable surfaces in range, a person standing in front of the camera leaves a shape the program can easily identify as human and no just a lampshade. Sony's Eye camera lacks that depth-sensing ability, so may not be able to track bodies, only certain distinct aspects of an image, like a glowing orb or the distinctive shape of a human face.

The problem with Kinect's depth sensing is it seems it NEEDS the user standing up and AWAY from any furniture, as if sitting down they might appear to blend into the furniture by the depth sensing mechanism. If then can't identify and track the human shape then it may not function at all.

Notice in all the Kinect Demos no chairs were allowed and there was always a large backdrop behind the players. Nothing confirmed on this yet but you have to read between the lines by what they have not shown. Nintendo showed Wii being used on a couch pre-release, same with Sony's PS Move.

 

[jetsterjinx]

Oh, no, Microsoft would NEVER think of copying the market leader of the current generation. Instead, they just copy the market leader of the LAST generation!