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BrawlMan

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Oh, wait, originally Predator was said (behind the scenes) to be set in Val Verde, a fictional country that's also mentioned in Commando, and Die Hard 2, so those films are set in the Predator universe.
There are many a fan that tries connects Aliens, Predator, and Terminator all in the same universe for decades. Sometimes Commando as well, but it usually boils down to John Matrix/Dutch Schaefer being an alias.

Always though they should do a Die Hard remake, where it's a Predator, not a John McClain in the tower.
I like it!
 

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I know Alien 3 had a bunch of ideas, but the first teaser trailer for this movie stated they would be on Earth. That obviously didn't happen. My problem with 3 is that the prison setting is not that interesting, killing off the remaining cast for no reason, and just screams execs meddling where they don't belong. Even the director of this movie hates Alien 3 and pretty much sworeof Hollywood. Can't blame him.
[/quote]

As to those:

-I don't think it's fair to blame a work for being falsely advertised. That fault lies with the people doing the advertising, not the creators of the work itself.

-Whether the prisoner setting is interesting or not is subjective, YMMV of course, but I really disagree that killing of Hicks and Newt is for nothing - it fits the oppressive, bleak atmosphere, it fits in with the nihilistic themes, it fits Ripley's arc (things start bad and progressively get worse), it fits in with the plot. From the outset, Alien 3 makes things clear that this isn't going to be a happy story, and that extends to the characters beyond the original four.

-You're right about Fincher, that doesn't dictate its quality/lack of it.

Right, so, from the span of Aliens to AvP, within the first five minutes of the game, it's established that:

-Xenomorphs crash on Earth, having come from...somewhere, despite having been wiped out in the previous film to best knowledge.

-The armed forces of the United Americas utilize cybernetically-enhanced soldiers that can carve through hordes of xenomorphs in hand-to-hand combat, despite the previous film showing a platoon utilizing real-world tactics and struggling against just a few hundred xenomorphs.

-Yautja exist, and apparently have been known to exist for quite some time.

Maybe the game explains this, and yes, you can point to similar sins being comitted by other EU works, the difference is that AvP (the game), to my understanding, occurs way after the events of Aliens. Transporting it to occur right after Aliens would involve massive tonal whiplash and questionable canon (even more than usual).

There's also the issue that such a scenario would apparently make Aliens a waste of time - stopping the xenomorphs from reaching Earth in that film would be a waste of time if they just end up on Earth in the next one.

The idea could work fine either for Alien or AVP. I am not saying it has to be all over one city, and can be an isolated location, but I the former can work fine and has ambition in scope and size. Be committed and go full crazy with it. Anything would have been better than the final product. Any of what I just mentioned is 1000x better than Prometheus and Covenant.
-Has "going crazy" ever worked with Aliens, like, ever? Mentioned this above, but again, Alien has always operated on a small scale, so conceptually, something like AvP is a massive break from that. And while breaking from type isn't always bad...sorry, I just find the idea so boring and banal. "Aliens invade Earth, a plucky quartet gets to fight their way through hundreds of them to save the world." I might as well have just written a description for The Avengers with that sentence (no. of heroes notwithstanding), and however one feels about that film, I don't think anyone here would say it makes a good template for an Aliens film. Even if the film was genuinely good on its own merits, it still relies on turning the xenomorph into cannon fodder.

-Well, again, I completely disagree with your final product comparisons for Alien 3. I don't even have to use AvP as a template, I can use the alternatives as they already exist, as I've listed above.

-Concerning Prometheus and Covenant, again, I disagree. Sort of. The difference is that Prometheus (for me) is a bad film, whereas Covenant is a damn good one (#3 in the series for me). But would your proposed version be better than Prometheus? Well, arguably. Dumb as hell, but arguably better. And I can certainly enjoy dumb films, but Alien has always been more than monster schlock. The problem with Prometheus isn't that it tried to explore high concepts in science fiction, it's that it failed to execute them. As far as I can tell, AvP is operating on an excuse plot - "aliens invade, kill them." Exactly what you'd expect for an arcade game, not something that makes for a good story.

As long as we're bickering about how the Alien movies should have gone, I'd like to map out the timeline.

Prey > Predator > Predator 2 > Spy Kids Trilogy > Alien vs. Predator > (unfinished) Machete Trilogy> Predators > Blade Runner > Alien > Alien: Isolation > Blade Runner 2077 > Avatar Saga > Aliens. AvP: Requim, Spy Kids 4, The Predator, and remaining Alien stories don't count.


Aside from those exemptions, did I miss anything or get anything out of order?
...what the fuck did I just read?

There was a chestburster in Crozier's lab in the "Mindwarp" story of Doctor Who, so you have to include all of Dr Who as well. Though, if you are only counting movies, that's only one in the main canon, set between Predators and Blade Runner.
Oh God, not you too. :(

Alright, you've actually touched on something that might be worth discussing, and that's the idea that Blade Runner is somehow in the same universe as Alien, and...no. Just no. Yes, there's been the offhand reference to Blade Runner in the Alien IP (e.g. Weyland references Tyrell Corp and his "abominations" (organic replicants as opposed to his synthetic androids), but while it's concievable that a Tyrell Corp exists in the same universe as Weyland Industries for instance, it doesn't fit at all that Blade Runner fits in with Alien.
 

Thaluikhain

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-Xenomorphs crash on Earth, having come from...somewhere, despite having been wiped out in the previous film to best knowledge.
A quibble, but that's not really true, it's specifically stated that the aliens weren't indigenous to that planet, so wiping them out there doesn't mean there weren't any elsewhere.

-Concerning Prometheus and Covenant, again, I disagree. Sort of. The difference is that Prometheus (for me) is a bad film, whereas Covenant is a damn good one (#3 in the series for me). But would your proposed version be better than Prometheus? Well, arguably. Dumb as hell, but arguably better. And I can certainly enjoy dumb films, but Alien has always been more than monster schlock. The problem with Prometheus isn't that it tried to explore high concepts in science fiction, it's that it failed to execute them. As far as I can tell, AvP is operating on an excuse plot - "aliens invade, kill them." Exactly what you'd expect for an arcade game, not something that makes for a good story.
Um, could you explain why you think that Covenant is good?

Also, what high concepts that Prometheus was trying to go for, IMHO it's the normal Chariots of the Gods stuff mixed with At the Mountains of Madness, plus added waffle.
 
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-I don't think it's fair to blame a work for being falsely advertised. That fault lies with the people doing the advertising, not the creators of the work itself.
Same difference. All the above when you waste a good concept for a prison setting no one asked for.
-Whether the prisoner setting is interesting or not is subjective, YMMV of course, but I really disagree that killing of Hicks and Newt is for nothing - it fits the oppressive, bleak atmosphere, it fits in with the nihilistic themes, it fits Ripley's arc (things start bad and progressively get worse), it fits in with the plot. From the outset, Alien 3 makes things clear that this isn't going to be a happy story, and that extends to the characters beyond the original four.
All of it sucks and doesn't fit for Ripley and the rest. They got their happy bittersweet ending. Fox ruined it with a bad fan fic no one was asking for. If they were going to do a prison setting, then have a completely different cast of characters and don't rely on the cheap deaths of old ones. Also, I hate unnecessary nihilism. Alien and Aliens already did the bleak and oppressive atmosphere perfectly without going overboard. Alien 3 is just an edge lord fan fic.

-You're right about Fincher, that doesn't dictate its quality/lack of it.
It does for me when you have that much of a bankrupt system and meddle where you don't belong. The franchise only kept getting worse from there with very diminishing returns.

Right, so, from the span of Aliens to AvP, within the first five minutes of the game, it's established that:

-Xenomorphs crash on Earth, having come from...somewhere, despite having been wiped out in the previous film to best knowledge.

-The armed forces of the United Americas utilize cybernetically-enhanced soldiers that can carve through hordes of xenomorphs in hand-to-hand combat, despite the previous film showing a platoon utilizing real-world tactics and struggling against just a few hundred xenomorphs.

-Yautja exist, and apparently have been known to exist for quite some time.

Maybe the game explains this, and yes, you can point to similar sins being comitted by other EU works, the difference is that AvP (the game), to my understanding, occurs way after the events of Aliens. Transporting it to occur right after Aliens would involve massive tonal whiplash and questionable canon (even more than usual).
The original 1994 movie script would have ironed the rest of those details out, but you know the behind-the-scenes story.

There's also the issue that such a scenario would apparently make Aliens a waste of time - stopping the xenomorphs from reaching Earth in that film would be a waste of time if they just end up on Earth in the next one.
Make AvP 1994 an alternate continuity. Simple as that. I didn't exactly ask for both to be on Earth at the same time (I mainly wanted the AvP idea though first and foremost), but it only happens to be that way, because the studio couldn't make up their mind on what they wanted or were arguing over how to split the profits for AvP.

-Has "going crazy" ever worked with Aliens, like, ever? Mentioned this above, but again, Alien has always operated on a small scale, so conceptually, something like AvP is a massive break from that. And while breaking from type isn't always bad...sorry, I just find the idea so boring and banal. "Aliens invade Earth, a plucky quartet gets to fight their way through hundreds of them to save the world." I might as well have just written a description for The Avengers with that sentence (no. of heroes notwithstanding), and however one feels about that film, I don't think anyone here would say it makes a good template for an Aliens film. Even if the film was genuinely good on its own merits, it still relies on turning the xenomorph into cannon fodder.
Yes, with restraint. While in an isolated location, Aliens did go bigger in scale, but with said restraint. AvP (Capcom) just went with the logical conclusion of let's go nuts and balls to the walls style. Would have worked fine with lots of people. I know many of my friends and classmates would have had 0 complaints.

-Well, again, I completely disagree with your final product comparisons for Alien 3. I don't even have to use AvP as a template, I can use the alternatives as they already exist, as I've listed above.
Good for you.

-Concerning Prometheus and Covenant, again, I disagree. Sort of. The difference is that Prometheus (for me) is a bad film, whereas Covenant is a damn good one (#3 in the series for me). But would your proposed version be better than Prometheus? Well, arguably. Dumb as hell, but arguably better. And I can certainly enjoy dumb films, but Alien has always been more than monster schlock. The problem with Prometheus isn't that it tried to explore high concepts in science fiction, it's that it failed to execute them. As far as I can tell, AvP is operating on an excuse plot - "aliens invade, kill them." Exactly what you'd expect for an arcade game, not something that makes for a good story.
They both suck and rely too much on nostalgia pandering and the characters being idiots, and dumb retconning no one asked for. Covenant only looks "good" by comparison to Prometheus. Both are stupid and bad in the worst possible way. Most people have forgotten Covenant even exists for a good reason. That is all left I have to say on the matter, and not backing down on this. The back and forth will be pointless. You waste your time on Covenant? Go right ahead. I will be watching or playing somethin better.
 

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There are many a fan that tries connects Aliens, Predator, and Terminator all in the same universe for decades. Sometimes Commando as well, but it usually boils down to John Matrix/Dutch Schaefer being an alias.
At no point did I ever think Arnie's characters in those 2 movies were different people. And as much as I want to include Terminator, what are the details to support this inclusion? And since I know nobody is going to support my temptation to include anything else after T2 (3 and 4 only), should SCC be included? It's tragically cut short, yet I included Machete 3 because maybe it'll be made still.
Oh, wait, originally Predator was said (behind the scenes) to be set in Val Verde, a fictional country that's also mentioned in Commando, and Die Hard 2, so those films are set in the Predator universe.
Should Die Hard 3 and 4 be included? I know part 5 is worse than anything else I've excluded.
 

Thaluikhain

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Should Die Hard 3 and 4 be included? I know part 5 is worse than anything else I've excluded.
Die Hard 3 was alright, though apparently it was going to be a Lethal Weapon movie, but they modified the script a little. 4 was just bad.
 

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A quibble, but that's not really true, it's specifically stated that the aliens weren't indigenous to that planet, so wiping them out there doesn't mean there weren't any elsewhere.
That's debatable.

From a Watsonian standpoint, yes, the xenomorph isn't native to LV-426, and yes, there could be other xenomorphs out there. However, it's pointed out that humanity has never encountered the xenomorph anywhere else by the events of the film, so to best knoweldge, by the end of Aliens (or Alien 3), the xenomorph is extinct.* If it isn't extinct, then it beholves this hypothetical Alien 3 to explain why.

From a Doylist standpoint, it makes Aliens a waste of time in some regards. A key plot point is stopping the xenomorphs from getting to Earth, so in the next movie...they're on Earth. If your overarching story makes previous events meaningless,** then while that can sometimes work if addressed properly,*** here, I doubt it.

*Yes, I know about the fact that countless xenomorphs were encountered between 2122 and 2179 as per EU material. I have my own gripes with that, but in the context of the films by themselves, there's nothing to suggest that the CAA official is lying.

**Even if you argue that Hicks and Newt dying makes Aliens pointless, that makes only their own character arcs pointless rather than the whole movie. There's nothing in the Alien 3 we got that renders the overall events on LV-426 a waste of time, as the xenomorphs are still wiped out, WY can't weaponize them, etc.

***As I'd argue Alien 3 does, since their deaths are relevant to the tone and Ripley's descent into despair.

Um, could you explain why you think that Covenant is good?
Um, most of the film?

Alright, I'll try and boil that down using the Five Elements of Story, so on that note:

-Plot: Plot is good, like how the mystery steadily unfolds. True, I saw some plot twists coming (e.g. the David reveal at the end), but overall, plot is solid.

-Characters: Characters are mostly good. Sure, there's a lot of background characters, so it doesn't get too special there, but as far as the main characters go, things are very solid. Fassbender does an excellent job in playing both Walter and David, how in-universe, they're the same physical model, whereas Fassbender plays each character distinctly. Daniels is okay - nothing special, but quite likable as a character.

-Storytelling: Covenant's storytelling is extremely solid. From the outset, it sets its pace, and steadily ramps things up. From the outset, there's a sense of unease (the solar storm), which translates into dread (exploration of Planet 4), which follows into horror (the backburster, neomorphs), then back to dread (David and the city), then horror/action as the final sequences play out, a standout being where Daniels has to fight the xenomorph on the landing platform. Really, there's no part of Covenant that drags the film or feels superfluous, and in terms of tone, I've commented that Covenant feels like a middle ground between the horror of Alien and the horror-action of Aliens. It isn't as good as either of them, but it's still a solid work by itself.

-Worldbuilding: This isn't completely perfect, as there's some ambiguities that will likely never be solved - for instance, is Planet 4 the Engineer homeworld, is this a separate branch of the Engineers, or are they a different Engineer creation? But aside from that, things are solid here. From a tech standpoint, I love the technology on display (like something that could concievably exist a hundred years from now), from a biological standpoint, I love the neomorphs and the nightmare fuel that comes from the black goo. We can question the notion of David being the creator of the xenomorphs, and it's dubious how things tie up with the Space Jockey (the implication in Alien was that the eggs had been there for ages, and had possibly been created by the mala'kak, though it's also implied in Prometheus that the xenomorphs already existed in some form before said film). The worldbuilding isn't perfect, but overall, it's a net positive.

-Themes: I'm going to address this below, since Covenant builds off the themes of Prometheus. So on that note:

Also, what high concepts that Prometheus was trying to go for, IMHO it's the normal Chariots of the Gods stuff mixed with At the Mountains of Madness, plus added waffle.
-Origins of life

-The nature of exploration - is this a noble endeavour, or are we stumbling into places that we don't belong?

-Deification - what happens when God (or gods) detest you? How does one deal with being a failed creation?

-Tension between science and belief? Can they be reconciled? Again, the different perspectives of David (cold, hard science), Weyland (blind faith/belief/hope), and Shaw (the middle ground).

-Creation - what happens when creators create, who create in turn? Do their offspring surpass them? Can they? Is there degradation involved - Engineers created humans, humans create synthetics, synthetics create xenomorphs - each creation is more malignant than its predecessor. This isn't evne subtle in Covenant, Paradise Lost is referenced directly. There's the running theme that the created can never match their creators, and the associated tragedy involved with it.

You can point out, correctly, that these themes have been explored elsewhere, and explored better. Doesn't change the fact that the ideas/concepts/themes are there. Prometheus has plenty of ambition, and while it didn't work well (to put it mildly), I appreciate Prometheus conceptually. Similarly, while Covenant is less lofty in its ambitions, it does a better job of exploring these ideas.

This also brings us back full circle. What themes, if any, is AvP exploring? I'm not even saying it has to, but when I go to see an Alien film, I expect something more than action schlock.
 

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Same difference. All the above when you waste a good concept for a prison setting no one asked for.
Who was asking for it to be set on Earth?

The problem with "what no-one was asking for" is that you could apply this to any sequel in existence, provided that there was no "to be continued." No-one asked for Aliens, we still got it.

Also, again, bringing the xenomorphs is a tired cliche. This isn't exclusive to Alien, if you want to raise the stakes in a sci-fi setting, have "X invade Earth" is the easiest way to raise the stakes there is without much effort involved. Alien 3, on the other hand, while not unique per se (a prison colony is a well worn trope), it's far more unique in its aesthetics and tone within the context of the series.

All of it sucks and doesn't fit for Ripley and the rest. They got their happy bittersweet ending. Fox ruined it with a bad fan fic no one was asking for. If they were going to do a prison setting, then have a completely different cast of characters and don't rely on the cheap deaths of old ones. Also, I hate unnecessary nihilism. Alien and Aliens already did the bleak and oppressive atmosphere perfectly without going overboard. Alien 3 is just an edge lord fan fic.
Okay, we'll have to agree to disagree there.

It does for me when you have that much of a bankrupt system and meddle where you don't belong. The franchise only kept getting worse from there with very diminishing returns.
That's...technically true, but, well, I'll put it this way:

EXCELLENT

1: Aliens
2: Alien

GOOD

3: Covenant
4: Alien 3

AVERAGE

5: Alien vs. Predator
6: Resurrection

BAD

7: Prometheus
8: Requiem

There's certainly an overall decline over time that's only been bucked by Covenant, but if you're starting off from Excellent, if your series in decline, it's still good.

The original 1994 movie script would have ironed the rest of those details out, but you know the behind-the-scenes story.
I doubt the 1994 script would have had many of those elements, period.

If you're talking about transplanting AvP into an Aliens sequel, you run into those problems. If an Alien "war on Earth" script was made, then there's more leeway.

Would it have been better? I personally doubt it, since a) it's a less interesting premise, and b) I've read the novel and graphic novel of the Gibson script, and it's bad. It's really bad. As I've mentioned, every 'alternative' to Alien 3 I've seen has been worse than the film they're intended to be alternatives to.

Yes, with restraint. While in an isolated location, Aliens did go bigger in scale, but with said restraint. AvP (Capcom) just went with the logical conclusion of let's go nuts and balls to the walls style. Would have worked fine with lots of people. I know many of my friends and classmates would have had 0 complaints.
I'll throw you a bone and say it's certainly possible. Since I've been able to look up Xenopedia, the implication is that if we're doing canon welding, the game likely takes place in 2194, concurrent to the Earth War comics arc, which did really well. So hypothetically, such a scenario could have done well.

On the other hand, I don't consider it a logical conclusion personally. It doesn't fit the Alien IP, and I'd like to remind you at this point that there's a certain film involving xenomorphs that had them overrunning a city (while hunted by a yautja) that I'm sure neither of us would like to talk about...

They both suck and rely too much on nostalgia pandering and the characters being idiots, and dumb retconning no one asked for. Covenant only looks "good" by comparison to Prometheus. Both are stupid and bad in the worst possible way. Most people have forgotten Covenant even exists for a good reason. That is all left I have to say on the matter, and not backing down on this. The back and forth will be pointless. You waste your time on Covenant? Go right ahead. I will be watching or playing somethin better.
Right, you haven't seen Covenant, but you know it's a waste of time. Okay.

Anyway, I'll agree to disagree.
 

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That's debatable.

From a Watsonian standpoint, yes, the xenomorph isn't native to LV-426, and yes, there could be other xenomorphs out there. However, it's pointed out that humanity has never encountered the xenomorph anywhere else by the events of the film, so to best knoweldge, by the end of Aliens (or Alien 3), the xenomorph is extinct.* If it isn't extinct, then it beholves this hypothetical Alien 3 to explain why.

From a Doylist standpoint, it makes Aliens a waste of time in some regards. A key plot point is stopping the xenomorphs from getting to Earth, so in the next movie...they're on Earth. If your overarching story makes previous events meaningless,** then while that can sometimes work if addressed properly,*** here, I doubt it.

*Yes, I know about the fact that countless xenomorphs were encountered between 2122 and 2179 as per EU material. I have my own gripes with that, but in the context of the films by themselves, there's nothing to suggest that the CAA official is lying.

**Even if you argue that Hicks and Newt dying makes Aliens pointless, that makes only their own character arcs pointless rather than the whole movie. There's nothing in the Alien 3 we got that renders the overall events on LV-426 a waste of time, as the xenomorphs are still wiped out, WY can't weaponize them, etc.

***As I'd argue Alien 3 does, since their deaths are relevant to the tone and Ripley's descent into despair.
Well, I saw the film more about Ripley, about her not being psychologically defeated by her trauma, and physically surviving, and also to an extent Burke getting comeuppance. I didn't see the aliens getting to Earth as a serious threat, I thought Ripley wanted the facehuggers destroyed for moral reasons. As such, it doesn't matter if there's other aliens around.

Um, most of the film?

Alright, I'll try and boil that down using the Five Elements of Story, so on that note:

-Plot: Plot is good, like how the mystery steadily unfolds. True, I saw some plot twists coming (e.g. the David reveal at the end), but overall, plot is solid.

-Characters: Characters are mostly good. Sure, there's a lot of background characters, so it doesn't get too special there, but as far as the main characters go, things are very solid. Fassbender does an excellent job in playing both Walter and David, how in-universe, they're the same physical model, whereas Fassbender plays each character distinctly. Daniels is okay - nothing special, but quite likable as a character.

-Storytelling: Covenant's storytelling is extremely solid. From the outset, it sets its pace, and steadily ramps things up. From the outset, there's a sense of unease (the solar storm), which translates into dread (exploration of Planet 4), which follows into horror (the backburster, neomorphs), then back to dread (David and the city), then horror/action as the final sequences play out, a standout being where Daniels has to fight the xenomorph on the landing platform. Really, there's no part of Covenant that drags the film or feels superfluous, and in terms of tone, I've commented that Covenant feels like a middle ground between the horror of Alien and the horror-action of Aliens. It isn't as good as either of them, but it's still a solid work by itself.

-Worldbuilding: This isn't completely perfect, as there's some ambiguities that will likely never be solved - for instance, is Planet 4 the Engineer homeworld, is this a separate branch of the Engineers, or are they a different Engineer creation? But aside from that, things are solid here. From a tech standpoint, I love the technology on display (like something that could concievably exist a hundred years from now), from a biological standpoint, I love the neomorphs and the nightmare fuel that comes from the black goo. We can question the notion of David being the creator of the xenomorphs, and it's dubious how things tie up with the Space Jockey (the implication in Alien was that the eggs had been there for ages, and had possibly been created by the mala'kak, though it's also implied in Prometheus that the xenomorphs already existed in some form before said film). The worldbuilding isn't perfect, but overall, it's a net positive.

-Themes: I'm going to address this below, since Covenant builds off the themes of Prometheus. So on that note:
Ok, going to have to agree to strongly disagree with you on most of that. Now, Fassbender did a good job with what he was given, and the people responsible for the look of the necropolis did a good job, otherwise I was very unimpressed, especially at how painfully stupid everyone had to be all the time.

-Themes: I'm going to address this below, since Covenant builds off the themes of Prometheus. So on that note

-Origins of life

-The nature of exploration - is this a noble endeavour, or are we stumbling into places that we don't belong?

-Deification - what happens when God (or gods) detest you? How does one deal with being a failed creation?

-Tension between science and belief? Can they be reconciled? Again, the different perspectives of David (cold, hard science), Weyland (blind faith/belief/hope), and Shaw (the middle ground).

-Creation - what happens when creators create, who create in turn? Do their offspring surpass them? Can they? Is there degradation involved - Engineers created humans, humans create synthetics, synthetics create xenomorphs - each creation is more malignant than its predecessor. This isn't evne subtle in Covenant, Paradise Lost is referenced directly. There's the running theme that the created can never match their creators, and the associated tragedy involved with it.

You can point out, correctly, that these themes have been explored elsewhere, and explored better. Doesn't change the fact that the ideas/concepts/themes are there. Prometheus has plenty of ambition, and while it didn't work well (to put it mildly), I appreciate Prometheus conceptually. Similarly, while Covenant is less lofty in its ambitions, it does a better job of exploring these ideas.
Again going to have to disagree there, it seemed to me like they were more interested in ticking boxes of themes rather than actually doing anything with them. Which, ok, technically means the themes are there.

This also brings us back full circle. What themes, if any, is AvP exploring? I'm not even saying it has to, but when I go to see an Alien film, I expect something more than action schlock.
Now, this I agree with, the Predator series is just action, with an interesting alien antagonist. I'd not look too closely for anything clever going on in an AvP story as a result, there's not that much to see.

(Random bit of trivia, apparently Covenant was the first film to feature the F90/EF88 or whatever you call the improved Austeyr)
 
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Who was asking for it to be set on Earth?
Other fans. End of story. People were intrigued when it first teaser trailer happened. I don't know what else to tell you.


I'll throw you a bone and say it's certainly possible. Since I've been able to look up Xenopedia, the implication is that if we're doing canon welding, the game likely takes place in 2194, concurrent to the Earth War comics arc, which did really well. So hypothetically, such a scenario could have done well.
Thank you.

On the other hand, I don't consider it a logical conclusion personally. It doesn't fit the Alien IP, and I'd like to remind you at this point that there's a certain film involving xenomorphs that had them overrunning a city (while hunted by a yautja) that I'm sure neither of us would like to talk about...
Requiem was done by a bunch of incompetent dumbasses that didn't know what they were doing. Green lit by bigger dumbasses that had even less of an idea of what they were doing nor what they wanted. Like I said before, put in the hands of people that care and try, it can more than likely work out.


Right, you haven't seen Covenant, but you know it's a waste of time. Okay.
It's a piece of crap. You have a problem with it, I don't care. Live with it. If Max Dood and crew (all 4 who are major Alien and Predator fans), and Linkara hate it, then I already know I'm going to like it even less. I learned a long time ago to stop trying to watch/play/read things that I (know I) don't like, are of bad quality, and force myself to get through it kicking and screaming. Not worth the two and a half hours of misery nor frustration. I'm not going to go out of my way just to see it to prove some damn point over an internet forum. I'm busy doing my own things and I damn well please watch what I want to watch, whenever I want for my schedule. End of discussion.
 
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Absent

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Hotter take. This is how I see AvP :

ch.jpg

For me, Aliens and Pretators belong to very distinct universes and even completely different cinema genres. And I don't like how any fun wink wink in-film reference is geekily interpreted as "see, SEE, it's ALL THE SAME MOVIE". That door code's tune ? It's the proof that Moonraker takes in the same universe as Close Encounters of the 3rd Type ! Cue to comics, toy lines and videogames, and, full circle, money money movies. Except no money, because obviously the concept crashes down spectacularly.

Aggravated by another old pet peeve of mine : Snyder-like "superman versus batman versus pokemon but FOR ADULTS". I have nothing about grown-ups enjoying childhood stuff, but overcompensating by trying to drag them into adult identities is just embarrassing. Tyrannosaurs in F-14 can be cool and enjoyable, it is also a kid thing, and trying to appropriate is as adults out of some sort of misplaced shame or denial is a recipe for disaster. There was that huge fuss about AvP movies not being violent and "adult" enough, which made me laugh because there's nothing adult about the merging of these franchises. The "who would win between gandalf and the terminator" mindset is the most juvenile. Of course producers and distributers would be lost, having to market the movie to the interested kids who want to feel like they're not kids anymore. The reachable target public (people who are just old enough to go see a restricted movie yet young enough to care strongly for the concept and take pride in it being restricted) is too narrow.

What I'm saying is : childish stuff is awesome. But when it pretends to be something else, it becomes awkward and funny. And more often than not, the harder something tries to "look mature", the least mature it gets. Example : Torchwood trying to be Doctor Who for adults, and ending up less mature (in a Beavis and Butthead way).

No, wait. What I'm truly saying is : Adults are just kids who are ashamed to be kids. We should stone these traitors.
 

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What I'm saying is : childish stuff is awesome. But when it pretends to be something else, it becomes awkward and funny. And more often than not, the harder something tries to "look mature", the least mature it gets. Example : Torchwood trying to be Doctor Who for adults, and ending up less mature (in a Beavis and Butthead way).
This is something the AAA gaming industry still needs to learn, and get their heads out of their asses.

No, wait. What I'm truly saying is : Adults are just kids who are ashamed to be kids. We should stone these traitors.
I agree to most of that, except for the stoning part. A pimp slap yes, but no need for a stoning.
 

Absent

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I agree to most of that, except for the stoning part. A pimp slap yes, but no need for a stoning.
Yeah. Let's get technical. I didn't have a taliban-like assassination in mind, but more of a "let's attach little bells on them so that kids hear them come and can run throw little rocks at them in the street" (as François Cavanna would say).
 

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Well, I saw the film more about Ripley, about her not being psychologically defeated by her trauma, and physically surviving, and also to an extent Burke getting comeuppance. I didn't see the aliens getting to Earth as a serious threat, I thought Ripley wanted the facehuggers destroyed for moral reasons. As such, it doesn't matter if there's other aliens around.
It's not the focus, but Aliens still highlights the threat the, um, aliens pose, and does so early on. At her debriefing, Ripley yells (paraphrased):

-"If just one of those things [xenomorphs] gets here [Earth/Gateway] all this stuff [red tape] you think is so important, you can just kiss it all goodbye!"

So add to Burke's desire to smuggle the xenomorphs back to Earth, bearing in mind the threat they pose, and that WY is either ignorant or uncaring as to how much a threat the xenomorphs pose, Aliens makes it clear that them escaping LV-426 is a no-no.

Now, this I agree with, the Predator series is just action, with an interesting alien antagonist. I'd not look too closely for anything clever going on in an AvP story as a result, there's not that much to see.
That's a conflation of AvP and Predator (yes, I'm going there).

Anyway, if we're confining this to the films, yes, AvP is schlock, and in the case of Requiem, it's not even enjoyable schlock (to put it mildly). As for the Predator films, if we're looking for themes, I can give the original film some credit, in that it's the only Predator film (haven't seen Prey) that arguably has any kind of subtext, namely:

-It's an inversion of the action movie formula - starts out as one, transitions into horror.

-Depending on your viewpoint, you can draw parallels to Vietnam (American soldiers in a jungle setting unable to deal with a foe that's got a better grasp of the terrain and uses guerilla tactics) and/or see it as a critique of US actions in Latin America (American soldiers guided by a CIA agent slaughter a rebel group to further the CIA's aims, whereas in in turn are slaughtered by an even more powerful foe - sort of a "boot's on the other foot").

-I've never seen anyone else put this forward, but my reading of the ending sequence (as in, everything after Dutch jumps off the waterfall) is sort of a commentary on the idea of "savagery is the true nature of Man," to borrow a phrase. As in, high-tech weapons have failed to slay the Predator, but Dutch succeeds by going primal, using hunting techniques not out of place by ancient humans - his traps are low tech, his bellow to the Predator is primal, he's covered in mud, he's using fire (our most ancient technology), yet it's these things that succeed when our more advanced tech didn't. And by the end, while Dutch wins, he's shown to be broken by the experience, and I always took most of that 'shakeness' to have come mainly from his later actions - he's won, but at immense psychological cost.

To be clear, Predator isn't some in-depth deconstruction of war, or the human condition, or anything like that, but in my view, it's always had a bit more going on than what its premise would suggest.

(Random bit of trivia, apparently Covenant was the first film to feature the F90/EF88 or whatever you call the improved Austeyr)
Aussies building weapons to give to colonists to settle a planet where every living thing wants to kill them?

Damn it, I knew Planet 4 was space Australia! :p
 

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Ah, I had written a long post (actually a long edit of my previous) full of delicious hot takes about Alien 3, sci-fi and fantasy. Forum ate it. In short, I was rambling at lenghts about :

a) My incapacity to feel empathy for robot characters (a machine is a machine, simulated feelings aren't feelings).

b) The fun racialism of fantasy and scifi, with their different races/species determining different abilities and mentalities.

a+b) How androids, aliens and fantasy races make absolutely terrible metaphors for antiracist discourses (the absence, among humans, of these different determinisms, is what ialidates racialist worldviews in real life, whereas they would be valid in such fantasy settings - so the analogy is completely self-defeating).

c) The narrative effectiveness of hard science and the one disbelief suspension (the one intrusion) in a grounded world. Therefore the weakening of the franchise when more fantasy elements are brought in (sentient AI, DNA memory, Jeunet's dreamlike style of cinematography).

Also I was precising that I didn't mind the death of Hicks and Newt per se, but I didn't like how it was simply introduced as a premise instead of happening during the story. This, and the alien egg appearing out of nowhere (the spectator can rationalize it one wonky way or another, it's still purely parachuted by the plot requirement) give the film's premise a very cheap slasher sequel intro feel ("here's why the monster didn't actually didn't die at the end of the previous movie"). And while indeed not central to the plot (precisely), the whole bishop thing feels added with zero meaning and stakes, even though the dialogue and the "reveal" are filmed as if important. These parts are just cheap. But I happen to appreciate the setting as a return to "monster versus helpless humans", and alien versus the name of the rose was a good concept.

Anyway. Predator themes ?

Not really "themes", but inversions that the film cleverly toys with. Whether conscious or inconscious (I'd say conscious), I believe they're why the film is so striking. First it's a "most dangerous game" hunt, where an alien redneck goes on a safari to hunt humans with the same technogical superiority that a hunter, with his long scope rifle, has upon an antelope. Then it's a colonial inversion, with the alien having tribal traits but also the dominant technology, a brilliant design mix. It feels like a revenge of the native victims of any european colonial conquest : what if "they" were the ones coming with the powder and canons ?

I particularly love how all these narrative themes are cleverly summarized in Silvestri's music. I feel the main musical theme contains the whole movie. You get the drum evocative of tribalism, you get the high tech electronical feel, you have the sense of tension and hiding, of hunt and chase... I often say that you could just listen to this track and not even require to see the movie anymore. All is there.


Alan Silvestri is an underrated composer. But I'm not sure that's a very hot take.
 

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...what the fuck did I just read?

Oh God, not you too. :(

Alright, you've actually touched on something that might be worth discussing, and that's the idea that Blade Runner is somehow in the same universe as Alien, and...no. Just no. Yes, there's been the offhand reference to Blade Runner in the Alien IP (e.g. Weyland references Tyrell Corp and his "abominations" (organic replicants as opposed to his synthetic androids), but while it's concievable that a Tyrell Corp exists in the same universe as Weyland Industries for instance, it doesn't fit at all that Blade Runner fits in with Alien.
Connecting different stories together is a fun mental excercize, regardless of how "childish" it is. I have limits mind you, very little is compatible with the Tolkien. In fact, I detest multi-verse stories like Into the Spider-verse with a passion. Not just because the climax in the portal room was choreography-gibberish, the spider-alternates were just schlocky pseudo-characters. Any crossover should instead establish that all stories being combined were already in the same Universe together, happening off-screen from each other. That's the magic of the MCU: it's a pre-packaged crossover where many characters that each had their own separate adventures join forces to tackle bigger threats. That they were able to maintain a quality of good or better for nearly 20 movies was also a major bragging right.

Weyland would call replicants "abominations", but only because they're not his brand. It sounds perfectly reasonable to say that he's jealous of a rival corporation's more impressive accomplishments while he's in relative squalor with cheap knock-off synths. But I'm open to knocking AvP: Antarctica off the timeline as long as we replace it with at least 1 game or comic. I'm leaning towards AvP3, the hi-def game.
Hotter take. This is how I see AvP :

[Calvin plays with dinosaurs]

For me, Aliens and Pretators belong to very distinct universes and even completely different cinema genres. And I don't like how any fun wink wink in-film reference is geekily interpreted as "see, SEE, it's ALL THE SAME MOVIE". That door code's tune ? It's the proof that Moonraker takes in the same universe as Close Encounters of the 3rd Type ! Cue to comics, toy lines and videogames, and, full circle, money money movies. Except no money, because obviously the concept crashes down spectacularly.
Considering crossovers are not required for merchandising, they really shouldn't be blamed for it. And your example of a reoccurring tune rudely dismisses the proudly overt xenomorph skull in Predator 2.
 

Thaluikhain

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Alan Silvestri is an underrated composer. But I'm not sure that's a very hot take.
Also did the music for Who Framed Roger Rabbit. Amongst other things, but the music gets similar to Predator at points, though it works when the movie gets very similar to Predator 2.
 
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Hawki

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Connecting different stories together is a fun mental excercize, regardless of how "childish" it is.
I'm an admin of various wikis and have written countless stories on FFN, I appreciate canon welding as much as the next guy, but there's a difference between imaging settings X and Y being shared, and stating that they're shared in the face of contradictory evidence. It's part of why on my homepage I lay out which IPs I consider compatible.

I have limits mind you, very little is compatible with the Tolkien.
Chronicles of Narnia?

Not literally, of course, but it sprung to mind. Both Lewis and Tolkien were part of the Inklings. Both take inspirations from Christianity. I could do some fanwank that Illuvatar and Aslan are the same, that Illuvatar creates Arda/Earth, then creates Narnia much later, cue crossovers.

Weyland would call replicants "abominations", but only because they're not his brand. It sounds perfectly reasonable to say that he's jealous of a rival corporation's more impressive accomplishments while he's in relative squalor with cheap knock-off synths.
Possibly, but it's beside the point as to whether Alien and Blade Runner can fit in the same universe. I'd argue that they can't. Even if you remove Predator from the equation, the worldbuilding of both settings are mutually exclusive. Want examples?

Blade Runner: Androids are created in the early 21st century. By 2019, interstellar travel is commonplace, and organic replicants, NEXUS-6, have been created. Earth is in a state of ecological collapse. By 2049, Earth's biosphere has been completely decimated.

Alien: The first androids are created in 2023. Over the next century, advancements in technology solve the issue of climate change, and allow extra-planetary colonization to commence.

It just doesn't work. It's just as implausible as claiming Terminator is somehow in the same timeline, as the worldbuilding just doesn't line up. Yes, you can point to the Alien vs. Predator vs. Terminator comic, but that's very much a "what if?" story, not something that's meant to be considered canonical to either setting.[/quote]
 

LegoDnD

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2023 is still the early 21st century, replicants were invented a few years before androids, and "completely decimated" is still something to bounce back from provided sufficient advancements in technology. So just like the late 20th century, there's a brief stint of making giant leaps for mankind but avoidable troubles put that on hold for a while. In fact, Jake in Avatar watches news about species revival with cloned tigers, so that's apart of the recovery process right there. Although I think this means I should put Avatar entirely before Alien then.

All it takes is a little imagination. And just for the isekai angle, I usually avoid linking the likes of Narnia to anything, it's already too much of a multi-verse by itself even when I like them. The only isekai I would link would be Tron and Digimon Tamers, in-so-far the programmers were using the same technology in both stories.
 

Thaluikhain

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Chronicles of Narnia?

Not literally, of course, but it sprung to mind. Both Lewis and Tolkien were part of the Inklings. Both take inspirations from Christianity. I could do some fanwank that Illuvatar and Aslan are the same, that Illuvatar creates Arda/Earth, then creates Narnia much later, cue crossovers.
One has a place called Ettinsmoor, and the other has the Ettenmoors. :unsure:
 
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