Mr Plinkett Last Jedi Review

[Falling_v1legacy]

TLJ is an aggravating film.
But what pulled me out of the film permanently was after Kylo blows up the hangar bay and his flight mates blow up the bridge. Three fighters have the Raddus dead to rights and then they are called back for... Reasons.

I thought I had misheard initially (What could they possibly need cover for when there is no air support and they're blowing holes in the biggest ship with only fighters.) But rewatching it only makes it worse. 'Can't cover you' is literally the only reason Hux gives. And then there are far more ships than I thought there were- I count at least 6 star destroyers... and then reading wookepedia, there are apparently two wings of fighters in those things which is +800 fighters, not counting that capital ship. The air support is gone, three fighters punched through the shields to take out the bridge, why wouldn't you release your fighters? The film leans heavily on WWII tactics anyways... just do Battle of Midway and the carriers need never meet.

And then that is followed by Space Leia and then this cockamamie plan to leave, go to another planet, and then they are so confident that things will be exactly like they left that this plan actually makes sense. That was the final straw where I was no longer engaged in the Secondary World. The spell of the story was broken and I couldn't get back into it no matter how I tried.

Neither Finn/ Rose's plan nor Huldo's plan makes much sense. Hyperspace trackers is a really bad idea to introduce into a series where they want to keep rebooting the Rebel storyline. Rebels are dead now for they can never hit and run again. And on my first watch, I missed some of the quick dialogue and assumed only Snoke's ship had a tracker, but turns out they all do, so everything about Finn/ Rose's plan seems crazy and bound to fail. It's also not so obvious why only one tracker at a time would be used. They handwaved it, but I wasn't buying what they were selling. Why in the world would you not have a redundancy and why in the world can a mechanic and janitor just spitball not only the existence of experimental technology, but how it works and how to stop it... and they're right. Battlestar Galatica did this plot much better. And had better female characters to boot, just in that first episode alone. You felt that countdown, you understood the logic of how they sussed out how they were getting tracked. People just know stuff. And nothing that they know (and are correct) really follows from the information given on screen, given there are quite a few other possibilities. Guess the characters were reading the script?

Huldo's makes even less sense. Because they are in SPACE. At what point in the chase do the Imperials, sipping their tea and playing poker, ask themselves. Hey that planet, that only planet that's coming up for last ten hours. They can't jump because they don't have fuel. What are the chances they might go there? How about three of our Star Destroyers (that are doing ABSOLUTELY NOTHING) pop on ahead and wait. Just in case. And then it turns out they have decloak scanners then entire time. But they weren't going to turn them on unless convinced by a prisoner. Because Reasons. Such a stupid way to introduce and immediately counteract technology. What is the point of a cloaking device if you can just run a decloak scan? And the Empire's ships just have them. No big deal or anything.

And then DJ doesn't make a lick of sense, when you rewatch the film. See, Han's character makes sense on a rewatch because it turns out as mercenary as he is, he's a rogue with a heart of gold. So although Luke bribes him with money to fetch Leia, after you see the end of Episode IV, his actions make even more sense because now you know he's more than a mercenary.

DJ turns out to be an opportunist. True neutral. He reveals this idea on the ship ride over- everyone's fighting, and some people make a lot of money (Barring the part where one side keeps making planet destroying weapons, but okay buddy. Both sides are basically the same. Sure.) But then they caught and he betrays them, but he's not broken up about it at all. It's just business. So now you go back. He's not a rogue with the heart of gold. He's an opportunist looking for good money. So why the heck does he voluntarily sneak into the most heavily guarded flying fortress in the galaxy? Han had the great excuse of getting trapped against his will and at the very least needed to get out. Rescuing Leia is only a small blip in the much bigger mess. But DJ's out. And Finn and Rose literally can offer him no downpayment. And. Unless DJ has not been watching the news, he ought to know the Empire's basically won and the Rebels are done. Why would an opportunist, just looking for money go on what 'sounds more like a suicide mission". After all "What good is a reward if you ain't around to use it." Is there no where else in the galaxy DJ couldn't make a quick buck? Seems like he could get in and out of the Casino Planet jail at whim and was just conveniently hanging around long enough for the 'heroes' who can't park a car without getting towed linked up with him. Was there no easy money to be had?

Everything about the central cruiser is so contrived to be exactly so where they put their villains on a treadmill for nearly the entire film and just leave them there, waiting for fuel to run out. Fighter patrols can be seen flying around when pursuing the Raddus, but not when attacking the Rebel base initially, because... Reasons. Yes, they lampshaded it. But it still doesn't solve the problem. Both Rebels and Empire were so stupid in their decision making that I hated all sides. Like, I really want the Resistance to just die, and be forgotten and start all over again. Clearly, the rest of the galaxy thinks the same way.

Like, what happened? The Rebels blew up Death Star III, and a Fleet Killer, and the Capital of the new Empire (seriously, the encylopedia entry on Snoke's ship is more exciting than the movie- criminally underutilized for such a cool concept. Just another giant ship to blow up for diminishing returns)... and yet no one in the entire galaxy is galvanized into action? What more can the Rebels do? Why does the galaxy suck so much? When civilian populations are attacked, people are galvanized into action (think the London Blitz), but this galaxy lays over and surrenders after their capital is destroyed. The galaxy didn't care about the Rebels and therefore I didn't care about them either. Why would Luke's brief lightshow be any more of a spark, considering hardly anyone saw it, and delaying a force for a few minutes is hardly as impressive as blowing up a Death Star, unless you happened to have filmed it. Not to mention, it's completely inconsistent with all the lionization of the everyman and the downgrade of the Skywalkers... but it turns out nothing but a Skywalker will inspire a galaxy. So which is it?

And then there's that stupid, stupid crash scene with Finn (poor guy, they gave him nothing to do for the entire film. They did him dirty.) I'm always very cognizant of the situationally inappropriate slow motion kiss with a near by ticking time bomb, but this one was painful. Why aren't those giant walkers shooting at them? I thought in theatres on my first watch. How are you having a romantic moment when that lazer is very likely killing people on the other side (not so obvious that anyone would survive that beam from their current perspective.) And why is Finn supposed to be learning this lesson of fighting for what he loves, when he was the one that was trying to save Rey from getting ambushed, and Rose called him the coward for his troubles? And this anti-sacrifice theme is completely inconsistent with Huldo's sacrifice on one side, and Luke's on the other. Which is it movie? Because your theme is sandwiched between two very visual contradictions and it's not so obvious that Finn was even doing his suicide run for the reasons that she said. Unless she can mindread through a ship, he might very well be doing it for love, or whatever. Very odd distinction regardless.)

I'll stop. But the story structure is just nonsense and a Frankenstein plot of Empire and Jedi. And people call it original. Hardly.

 

[Falling_v1legacy]

Not to mention "shut up and follow your orders" is a pretty fascist thing to say for the resistance.

That's the weird thing. Movie's have shorthands to give you a sense of secondary characters in a hurry. Everything about Huldo reads as the incompetent commander that says 'follow orders, or else'. The one that pulls the detective off the case. She's the Roger Dooley of Agent Carter. Or the WWI generals 'over the top' to let hundreds of thousands die. She reads as the anti-Auftragstaktik, all centralized command, all the time and condescending at that. And then the film turns around and does a gotcha! She's competent all along! And, it's like, sure. You 'got' me. Because you created an incoherent character that does a Face-Heel turn at random. If you say a bunch of things and then do something the exact opposite, I guess you will always 'get' me. But it's cheap. And it's not good storytelling. And then the only reason her plan is any 'good' is because the baddies are just as stupid. But they have to be idiots in order to get into a very particular scenario where we're stuck in the world's slowest car chase, where the big plan is to run them out of fuel. 18 hours later. Neat. Contrivance after contrivance. Seriously, the military on both sides are idiots and I hate all sides.

Most of the old EU could burn in a dumpster fire. But I miss my Thrawn and my Garm bel Iblis, actual competent commanders. RIP Ackbar. They did you dirty too. May they resurrect Lando again just to show him as a washed up failure like the others. And then he dies for nothing too.

 

[sonofliber]

crimson i 100% agree with you. Holdo is a horrible leader.

Just think of this, lets say you are on the ship, you see you other ships getting destroy, morale is low, command is down, the simbol of the resistance in the medbay, there is no hope in sight, your commanding officer doest say shit about what to do, and whats worse reprimands they only guy that has actually done something, that actually has strike 2 of the big victories for the "resistance" (remember Poe is the one that destroy star killer base)
Yeah im joining the fucking mutiny, if i die at least i can have a say or something.


Also Poe made the right call with the starship, there is not an argument there. Specially if you want to bring over WWII connotations into this.


One more thing, the only reason Hold plan actually works, is because the evil guys are idiots. And decided to play with the rebels (also we dont actually know if it would have been sucessfull, they might have run a system scan just in case and puff there goes holdo "brilliant" plan

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Poe throwing a temper tantrum and staging a short-lived mutiny led directly to hundreds of Resistance members being killed. Had he obeyed orders and not bet the future of the Resistance on a Hail Mary plan with an exceedingly slim chance of success then Holdo's plan would have succeeded. The First Order did not know to look for a bunch of unarmed, unshielded transports hiding behind the Raddus

Too bad Holdo didn't explain her plan beforehand and just expected the crew to have no questions about how they were going to survive. Woops.

The command staff and relevant crew of the fleet knew the plan. Poe =/= "the crew".

But in any case, that doesn't change the fact that Leia and Holdo overreacted in the first place to losing the fighters and bombers.

I dunno, acting against direct orders and getting two squadrons of people dead deserves at least a dressing down.

Hot blooded heroics. That plan shouldn't have worked because the point defense turrets should have wiped out the attack before they got close. But Poe took them out by himself without taking a hit. By the time the dreadnought realized what was happening, it was too late to scramble the TIE fighters.

Uh, Poe taking a hit is what caused a delay in launching the bombing run, which led to the Resistance fighters getting overwhelmed by TIEs. You watched the movie, right?

No, "she tried to kill us all and wouldn't tell us why" is a pretty good reason to be wary of such a commander.

Wait, what?

 

[Natemans]

the old Expanded Universe had better stuff then the official movies.

Yup, and even though I might get crucified for this, I think it had better stuff than even the original trilogy.

So fuck Disney.

Am I the only one glad they got rid of the old EU?

Mainly I'm glad they stopped the never-ending cycle of the novels trying to fix the problems caused by the previous set of novels, only to create even more problems.

I'm also glad everything that everything Karen Traviss did with the Mandalorians got tossed in the trash.

Yeah, Karen Traviss really loved Mandalorians. It was nuts.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

TLJ is an aggravating film.
But what pulled me out of the film permanently was after Kylo blows up the hangar bay and his flight mates blow up the bridge. Three fighters have the Raddus dead to rights and then they are called back for... Reasons.

I thought I had misheard initially (What could they possibly need cover for when there is no air support and they're blowing holes in the biggest ship with only fighters.) But rewatching it only makes it worse. 'Can't cover you' is literally the only reason Hux gives. And then there are far more ships than I thought there were- I count at least 6 star destroyers... and then reading wookepedia, there are apparently two wings of fighters in those things which is +800 fighters, not counting that capital ship. The air support is gone, three fighters punched through the shields to take out the bridge, why wouldn't you release your fighters? The film leans heavily on WWII tactics anyways... just do Battle of Midway and the carriers need never meet.

It's "the rules", and fascists get particular about their rules. Also, be wary about taking what wookiepedia says at face value. The Force Unleashed is canon in those parts, jumping puzzles included.

And then it turns out they have decloak scanners then entire time. But they weren't going to turn them on unless convinced by a prisoner. Because Reasons. Such a stupid way to introduce and immediately counteract technology. What is the point of a cloaking device if you can just run a decloak scan? And the Empire's ships just have them. No big deal or anything.

"Pfft, electronic warfare that fails when the bad guys are clued in on their specific characteristics? How unrealistic"

Everything about the central cruiser is so contrived to be exactly so where they put their villains on a treadmill for nearly the entire film and just leave them there, waiting for fuel to run out. Fighter patrols can be seen flying around when pursuing the Raddus, but not when attacking the Rebel base initially, because... Reasons. Yes, they lampshaded it. But it still doesn't solve the problem. Both Rebels and Empire were so stupid in their decision making that I hated all sides. Like, I really want the Resistance to just die, and be forgotten and start all over again. Clearly, the rest of the galaxy thinks the same way.

Why waste a lot of fuel and risk making micro-jumps when you've got them on the ropes and can sadistically draw out their mental torture? Think like a neo-nazi.

Like, what happened? The Rebels blew up Death Star III, and a Fleet Killer, and the Capital of the new Empire (seriously, the encylopedia entry on Snoke's ship is more exciting than the movie- criminally underutilized for such a cool concept. Just another giant ship to blow up for diminishing returns)... and yet no one in the entire galaxy is galvanized into action? What more can the Rebels do? Why does the galaxy suck so much? When civilian populations are attacked, people are galvanized into action (think the London Blitz), but this galaxy lays over and surrenders after their capital is destroyed. The galaxy didn't care about the Rebels and therefore I didn't care about them either. Why would Luke's brief lightshow be any more of a spark, considering hardly anyone saw it, and delaying a force for a few minutes is hardly as impressive as blowing up a Death Star, unless you happened to have filmed it. Not to mention, it's completely inconsistent with all the lionization of the everyman and the downgrade of the Skywalkers... but it turns out nothing but a Skywalker will inspire a galaxy. So which is it?

Doolittle's raid caused minimal damage but caused a massive amount of morale damage. The utter eradication of Hiroshima and Nagasaki fundamentally changed the nature of politics and warfare.

And then there's that stupid, stupid crash scene with Finn (poor guy, they gave him nothing to do for the entire film. They did him dirty.) I'm always very cognizant of the situationally inappropriate slow motion kiss with a near by ticking time bomb, but this one was painful. Why aren't those giant walkers shooting at them? I thought in theatres on my first watch. How are you having a romantic moment when that lazer is very likely killing people on the other side (not so obvious that anyone would survive that beam from their current perspective.) And why is Finn supposed to be learning this lesson of fighting for what he loves, when he was the one that was trying to save Rey from getting ambushed, and Rose called him the coward for his troubles? And this anti-sacrifice theme is completely inconsistent with Huldo's sacrifice on one side, and Luke's on the other. Which is it movie? Because your theme is sandwiched between two very visual contradictions and it's not so obvious that Finn was even doing his suicide run for the reasons that she said. Unless she can mindread through a ship, he might very well be doing it for love, or whatever. Very odd distinction regardless.)

This one's easy. Holdo and Luke's sacrifice saved people. Directly. (Incidently, if Yoda's any indication, "being dead" is merely inconvenient for a Jedi Master when the chips are down)

Finn's sacrifice wouldn't have changed literally anything. They'd still be trapped, they'd just bring another laser down, and nobody was coming to the rescue. It'd play decently good as propaganda, but it doesn't hold a candle to Luke going Trickster God and punking the entire First Order.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

Poe throwing a temper tantrum and staging a short-lived mutiny led directly to hundreds of Resistance members being killed. Had he obeyed orders and not bet the future of the Resistance on a Hail Mary plan with an exceedingly slim chance of success then Holdo's plan would have succeeded. The First Order did not know to look for a bunch of unarmed, unshielded transports hiding behind the Raddus

Too bad Holdo didn't explain her plan beforehand and just expected the crew to have no questions about how they were going to survive. Woops.

The command staff and relevant crew of the fleet knew the plan. Poe =/= "the crew"

Once again, not telling your crew is, on top of being villain coding in a story, an antiquated military leadership doctrine that was done away with for exactly the reasons that happen in the movie.

As a side note, is there anyone left between Poe and the admiralty? Did the demotion even accomplish anything? I legit don't know, but I don't remember Holdo ever conferring with other people of rank.

But in any case, that doesn't change the fact that Leia and Holdo overreacted in the first place to losing the fighters and bombers.

I dunno, acting against direct orders and getting two squadrons of people dead deserves at least a dressing down.

Possibly, but he still accomplished a good tactical goal.

Hot blooded heroics. That plan shouldn't have worked because the point defense turrets should have wiped out the attack before they got close. But Poe took them out by himself without taking a hit. By the time the dreadnought realized what was happening, it was too late to scramble the TIE fighters.

Uh, Poe taking a hit is what caused a delay in launching the bombing run, which led to the Resistance fighters getting overwhelmed by TIEs. You watched the movie, right?

I have, admittedly, slept since I've seen the movie. But he wasn't shot down, which is the important part. That was not a mission for a single person.

No, "she tried to kill us all and wouldn't tell us why" is a pretty good reason to be wary of such a commander.

Wait, what?

Exactly that. From Poe's position, Holdo's plan looked suicidal.

 

[Falling_v1legacy]

@altnameJg
What do you mean, 'it's the rules'? Hux is impatient that he cannot kill cruiser quick enough (what's the point of all this weaponry, if we can't kill them).

I'm wary of wookepedia.

Note my initial reaction, was in the moment, first time watching. I only started searching around in case to see if things held up, if someone threw out 'But in the books in makes sense.' It makes less sense. But never mind the specific number. There's a whole of those fighters flying around on patrol during that chase. The movie shows us that, plus we've seen a hangar of these things in Force Awakens. Based on what 3 fighters did, even if they could only muster 10 times that amount, the Rebel would be shredded, relying only upon what is shown on screen.

re: electronic warfare- this is the first time cloaked ships have been used to solve a plot problem. The results were underwhelming at best, considering it can be countered with a push of a button. It cannot be a good plan, it it relies upon your enemy being lazy.

Why waste a lot of fuel and risk making micro-jumps when you've got them on the ropes and can sadistically draw out their mental torture? Think like a neo-nazi.

Lightning War? Knock 'em out hard and fast? It's not thinking like a Nazi. It's not thinking at all.

Again, pay attention to Hux's emotional state. He is very clearly impatient that he cannot destroy them immediately. It also makes the universe seem very small indeed, if the Emperor and all his chief minions have the time to kick back into cruise control and that's that. Does the Empire strike you as an organization that's concerned about resource consumption? They lost a Death Star and within 24 hours they've conquered the entire Republic. Speed seems to be the thing here.

Doolittle's raid caused minimal damage but caused a massive amount of morale damage. The utter eradication of Hiroshima and Nagasaki fundamentally changed the nature of politics and warfare.

End of the war bombs is not the same thing as an opening salvo. Not only that, but for the US, it's 'there's a lot more where those came from'. Compared to the not-Rebels- another horrific genocide has occured, but we destroyed their super weapon. Again. It was pretty simple actually. Follow us and we will lead you to victory! Once the Death Star is off the table, all the damage and non of the threat exist. That's a very good cause to go after the SoB's. And a pretty good motivator to get a move on it soon, before they can make another one.

Well, the Yoda thing brings up another thing- interaction in the physical realm with force lightning opens up huge plot holes- it's like they just throw things at the wall, with no idea on what extrapolates from the powers they put in place. Beware of creating Time Turners without considering the consequences.

Finn's sacrifice could have (if the director, so wanted) knocked out a laser, maybe buying more time. The intention was to save people. That no one was coming, is the fault of the director for making the Rebels so uninspiring that no on in the galaxy will come to their rescue. More importantly, it would complete his character arc. He started as a cowardly deserter, running away and not willing to stand and fight. They clearly had no story ideas for his character development because they iced him on a fetch quest that went absolutely no where. So if he ends his story in a heroic self-sacrifice, where he saves his fellow Rebels and dies rather than running, his circle is complete. It would be a tragic, yet heroic end where the little guy saves the day (consistent with theme) rather than the Jedi Master of the Skywalker legacy (let the past die and all that).

Not much of Trickster God punk, when Luke died. Joke's on Luke. And Kylo gets the last laugh. Luke was a coward, refused to clean up his mistakes and left the rest of the galaxy to solve his problem, while he gets to peace out. Though maybe he and Yoda can spend the rest of their days Force zapping Kylo. Amusing, I guess. He can do the Trickster, see you around, but live for the next film- maybe Ascendancy at the end of the 9th. Or he can come in person and die for the others. But they tried to have their cake and eat it too. And it doesn't work. It's very unsatisfying. Two movies of build up, and he does one flashy move and dies of a heart attack anyways. Underwhelming to say the least.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Once again, not telling your crew is, on top of being villain coding in a story, an antiquated military leadership doctrine that was done away with for exactly the reasons that happen in the movie.

And again, Poe =/= "the crew". Hell, given the visceral reaction Poe had when he saw the transports being fueled up, I wouldn't be surprised if he wouldn't have tried to pull a mutiny if he'd known the plan from the start. He certainly never passed on the idea that the FO could track them through hyperspace.

As a side note, is there anyone left between Poe and the admiralty? Did the demotion even accomplish anything? I legit don't know, but I don't remember Holdo ever conferring with other people of rank.

For the most part, Holdo isn't a viewpoint character. We don't get to see most of her interactions.

But in any case, that doesn't change the fact that Leia and Holdo overreacted in the first place to losing the fighters and bombers.

I dunno, acting against direct orders and getting two squadrons of people dead deserves at least a dressing down.

Possibly, but he still accomplished a good tactical goal.[/quote]Questionable, especially considering losses. Those bombers and fighter screens, provided they didn't reveal themselves once Poe's attack stalled, might've been able to launch a surprise attack on Snoke's flagship in the follow up. I'd be downright shocked if that ship wasn't at least as powerful as a Dreadnought. Fascists don't let their subordinates have bigger toys.

No, "she tried to kill us all and wouldn't tell us why" is a pretty good reason to be wary of such a commander.

Wait, what?

Exactly that. From Poe's position, Holdo's plan looked suicidal.

Poe thought that running away from an overwhelmingly superior military force was cowardice. A couple more Poe plans and he'd be the only member of the Resistance.

 

[Falling_v1legacy]

Those bombers and fighter screens, provided they didn't reveal themselves once Poe's attack stalled, might've been able to launch a surprise attack on Snoke's flagship in the follow up

This is actually another flaw in the story telling. They never once SHOW us why Poe's actions were bad. They just tell us. Never once did they have a 'sure would be nice to have those bombers right about now' moment. Not once. In fact, all those bombers seemed about useless as the only plan was to abandon ship and use the transports.

Where were they going to turn in fight? Not to mention, for some idiotic reason (plot contrivance again), there was no fighter screen at the very beginning and those bombers are paper airplanes and slow as pigs. I thought they were really cool looking up until they all got destroyed very easily. And then I couldn't think of why they would ever replace the B-wing or even the Y-wing as bombers. They just can't get into a fight unless there are literally no enemies.

In the most ideal condition possible (no turrets, and stupidly delayed fighters), they could still only just barely get one bomber to drop its load. For the rest of the movie, there are TIE fighters buzzing around all over the place on patrol. From what we've seen on the screen, they would not have a snowball's chance in hell to get close to anything remotely useful.

The only thing they show us is that the Dreadnought was about to open fire, except it got destroyed right it could get off a shot. So the only thing the film shows us, is that the Raddus should be dead. But Poe saved the Raddus and spends the rest of the movie as person non grata for his troubles. They should all be dead. But he's the bad guy, I guess.

Believe me, I'm tired of the maverick vs stuffy generals storyline. I love Bridge too Far with all the generals. I was annoyed that Rogue One had a completely inert command staff for the Rebels with no plan, and it's just the maverick that saves the day. I'm ready for a story to be about the maverick being wrong and generals right. So if they throw a person like me off, they're doing it very wrong indeed, as I'm looking forward to this sort of plot. I'm the target audience for this sort of plot line. But all they SHOW is classic maverick saves the day and then they spend the rest of the film TELLING us, he was wrong. Film is a visual medium. They're doing it wrong this way. Again. Battlestar Galatica did it first and better. (Starbuck vs Adama for one or Colonel Tigh vs anyone)

 

[immortalfrieza]

crimson i 100% agree with you. Holdo is a horrible leader.

Just think of this, lets say you are on the ship, you see you other ships getting destroy, morale is low, command is down, the simbol of the resistance in the medbay, there is no hope in sight, your commanding officer doest say shit about what to do, and whats worse reprimands they only guy that has actually done something, that actually has strike 2 of the big victories for the "resistance" (remember Poe is the one that destroy star killer base)
Yeah im joining the fucking mutiny, if i die at least i can have a say or something.


Also Poe made the right call with the starship, there is not an argument there. Specially if you want to bring over WWII connotations into this.

Exactly. Holdo did everything possible to give Poe every reason both rational and irrational to do everything he does in the movie, thus failing as a leader. Not to the extent of failure as the movie's core theme either, which would be doing something that sounds like it could work and it failing, but to the point that one wonders how the hell Holdo ever managed to get anywhere past private not to mention Vice-Admiral. Holdo goes out of her way to antagonize and dismiss Poe every time they talk, she refuses to explain the plan or even that there IS a plan, (the latter of which she should have announced to the entire Resistance fleet the moment she took command) when Poe finally does manage to get Holdo to take 5 seconds to explain the plan she only says some vague sounding nonsense that could mean anything, and finally when Poe gets a glimpse on part of the plan without the whole she STILL refuses to explain what it is. The end result of this is Resistance members are deserting in droves so much they have to have someone guarding the escape pods to tazer anyone that tries to run, Poe makes his own plan which he doesn't tell Holdo about since he has been given absolutely no reason to which screws up Holdo's actual plan, and eventually everybody who has stayed behind mutinies. Any one of these things if she had survived would be in themselves grounds to have Holdo stripped of her rank not to mention all three of them.

Holdo's job as a leader, scratch that, the core point of a leader is to manage morale, simply telling Poe and the rest of the Resistance that there was a plan of any sort even wouldn't be babying Poe or the other redshirts, it would be the bare minimum a leader is supposed to do.

The only thing that anyone can honestly even fault Poe for the whole is the Dreadnought, and even that would be considered a smashing victory for the Resistance by any reasonable metric. Everything else falls on Finn and Rose screwing up which Poe couldn't possibly have predicted, even broadcasting that message for DJ to overhear since he didn't know DJ was there and had no reason to think anyone who couldn't be trusted would be, and again, it's the end result of Holdo's ineptitude at command.

One more thing, the only reason Hold plan actually works, is because the evil guys are idiots. And decided to play with the rebels (also we dont actually know if it would have been sucessfull, they might have run a system scan just in case and puff there goes holdo "brilliant" plan

Hell, forget about running a scan, all the First Order needed was some no name grunt with binoculars looking out a window watching the Resistance ships, which there should have been as a matter of course just to watch for anything they might be doing. The transports were only cloaked from electronic detection, not visible detection; when your plan can be foiled by the enemy looking out the window it's a terrible plan. Of course, this comes back to the bad guys being idiots, like pretty much every bad guy in the history of fiction always is because otherwise the bad guys would win, every Bond villain ever for example.

 

[Falling_v1legacy]

Yeah. But this Empire is a special kind of idiot.
And so are the Rebels.

Bond villains have a penchant for elaborate executions, but there's usually something that demonstrates their competence. If the only reason you have a plot is if everybody is an idiot, it's bad a plot. You can forgive some hubris in a moment of triumph, but it's not very fun watching incompetence at every turn... unless it's supposed to be a comedy.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

@altnameJg
What do you mean, 'it's the rules'? Hux is impatient that he cannot kill cruiser quick enough (what's the point of all this weaponry, if we can't kill them).

He's not in command, Snoke is.

Note my initial reaction, was in the moment, first time watching. I only started searching around in case to see if things held up, if someone threw out 'But in the books in makes sense.' It makes less sense. But never mind the specific number. There's a whole of those fighters flying around on patrol during that chase. The movie shows us that, plus we've seen a hangar of these things in Force Awakens. Based on what 3 fighters did, even if they could only muster 10 times that amount, the Rebel would be shredded, relying only upon what is shown on screen.

And I'm certain Hux would love to give Ren every chance in the galaxy to get his ass blown up, but that's against the rules. The Resistance just materialized a bomber fleet out of nowhere to take down a dreadnought, you think Snoke's gonna risk leavinging his flagship with a reduced CAP and assume the Resistance doesn't have a second one? Besides, it's clear Poe Dameron hasn't taken the field. Until you know where that bastard is, for sure, you don't take risks. We know he's been renederd impotent, but they don't.

Everybody makes mistakes.

re: electronic warfare- this is the first time cloaked ships have been used to solve a plot problem. The results were underwhelming at best, considering it can be countered with a push of a button. It cannot be a good plan, it it relies upon your enemy being lazy.

"What's the point of frequency-shifting if the enemy can just listen in if they know your frequency?"
Look, sensors is Star Wars have always sucked all kinds of ass.

Why waste a lot of fuel and risk making micro-jumps when you've got them on the ropes and can sadistically draw out their mental torture? Think like a neo-nazi.

Lightning War? Knock 'em out hard and fast? It's not thinking like a Nazi. It's not thinking at all.

Nazis get over-cautious once you give them a bloody nose. That's why punching a Nazi pays dividends.

Again, pay attention to Hux's emotional state. He is very clearly impatient that he cannot destroy them immediately. It also makes the universe seem very small indeed, if the Emperor and all his chief minions have the time to kick back into cruise control and that's that. Does the Empire strike you as an organization that's concerned about resource consumption? They lost a Death Star and within 24 hours they've conquered the entire Republic. Speed seems to be the thing here.

Blitzes only work until they're blunted. If the FO is like the Nazis, their logistical chain is a slow nightmare. So don't waste hyperspace fuel if you don't need to.

Besides, Hux might've been impatient, but he's also, a craven, cowardly bully who wasn't in command.

Doolittle's raid caused minimal damage but caused a massive amount of morale damage. The utter eradication of Hiroshima and Nagasaki fundamentally changed the nature of politics and warfare.

End of the war bombs is not the same thing as an opening salvo. Not only that, but for the US, it's 'there's a lot more where those came from'. Compared to the not-Rebels- another horrific genocide has occured, but we destroyed their super weapon. Again. It was pretty simple actually. Follow us and we will lead you to victory! Once the Death Star is off the table, all the damage and non of the threat exist. That's a very good cause to go after the SoB's. And a pretty good motivator to get a move on it soon, before they can make another one.

Ahh, but it wasn't just another Death Star. No moon-based superlaser that had to move in system to be effective.

Starkiller Base wiped out an entire solar system from across the galaxy. That changes the game. More importantly, the FO pressed the attack after. They got support from other Imperial remnants. The Captain of the Dreadnought was ex-Imperial Navy, he's too old to be born and bred FO.

Finn's sacrifice could have (if the director, so wanted) knocked out a laser, maybe buying more time. The intention was to save people. That no one was coming, is the fault of the director for making the Rebels so uninspiring that no on in the galaxy will come to their rescue. More importantly, it would complete his character arc. He started as a cowardly deserter, running away and not willing to stand and fight. They clearly had no story ideas for his character development because they iced him on a fetch quest. So if he ends his story in a heroic self-sacrifice, where he saves his fellow Rebels and dies rather than running, his circle is complete. It would be a tragic, yet heroic end where the little guy saves the day (consistent with theme) rather than the Jedi Master of the Skywalker legacy (let the past die and all that).

Well, sure, if we jigger the plot around enough, it would've been a tragic yet inspiring sacrifice that saved everybody. If we jiggle the plot around enough, lots of things would change.

Not much of Trickster God punk, when Luke died. Joke's on Luke. And Kylo gets the last laugh. Luke was a coward, refused to clean up his mistakes and left the rest of the galaxy to solve his problem, while he gets to peace out. Though maybe he and Yoda can spend the rest of their days Force zapping Kylo. Amusing, I guess. He can do the Trickster, see you around, but live for the next film- maybe Ascendancy at the end of the 9th. Or he can come in person and die for the others. But they tried to have their cake and eat it too. And it doesn't work. It's very unsatisfying. Two movies of build up, and he does one flashy move and dies of a heart attack anyways. Underwhelming to say the least.

Says you, I thought it was brilliant. Luke Skywalker, individual human, would've absolutely been plastered by cannon fire. So he solved the problem the only way he solves Jedi problems: by explicitly rejecting violence, even at the potential cost of his own life.

And the brilliant part is? Nobody knows he's dead short of Leia, possibly Rey. Kyle might suspect, but he's honestly kinda dense. Every non-force using member of the FO is gonna be watching over their backs for the guy who can casually stride through cannon fire and disappear at the blink of an eye. Who so utterly embarrassed their Supreme Leader. Nazis run on bravado. Humiliation is a powerful weapon.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Those bombers and fighter screens, provided they didn't reveal themselves once Poe's attack stalled, might've been able to launch a surprise attack on Snoke's flagship in the follow up

This is actually another flaw in the story telling. They never once SHOW us why Poe's actions were bad. They just tell us. Never once did they have a 'sure would be nice to have those bombers right about now' moment. Not once. In fact, all those bombers seemed about useless as the only plan was to abandon ship and use the transports.

Well, they didn't have anymore bombs.

Where were they going to turn in fight? Not to mention, for some idiotic reason (plot contrivance again), there was no fighter screen at the very beginning and those bombers are paper airplanes and slow as pigs. I thought they were really cool looking up until they all got destroyed very easily. And then I couldn't think of why they would ever replace the B-wing or even the Y-wing as bombers. They just can't get into a fight unless there are literally no enemies.

Did you see the bomb racks on those guys? If proton torpedos could do the trick, Poe would've just soloed the Dreadnought.

In the most ideal condition possible (no turrets, and stupidly delayed fighters), they could still only just barely get one bomber to drop its load. For the rest of the movie, there are TIE fighters buzzing around all over the place on patrol. From what we've seen on the screen, they would not have a snowball's chance in hell to get close to anything remotely useful.

The attack was delayed due to Poe's weapons getting knocked out. It was kind of a plot point, dunno if you missed it.

The only thing they show us is that the Dreadnought was about to open fire, except it got destroyed right it could get off a shot. So the only thing the film shows us, is that the Raddus should be dead. But Poe saved the Raddus and spends the rest of the movie as person non grata for his troubles. They should all be dead. But he's the bad guy, I guess.

The only reason the Raddus was around long enough for the Dreadnought to almost fire is because they were waiting on Poe's dumbass. They'd've been gone with plenty of time to spare is Poe'd backed off when he was ordered.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Holdo's job as a leader, scratch that, the core point of a leader is to manage morale, simply telling Poe and the rest of the Resistance that there was a plan of any sort even wouldn't be babying Poe or the other redshirts, it would be the bare minimum a leader is supposed to do.

She *did* tell Poe there was a plan. She just didn't tell him what it was.

Likely because he's the sort of hothead that would organize a mutiny as soon as he finds out they're abandoning ship.

Hell, forget about running a scan, all the First Order needed was some no name grunt with binoculars looking out a window watching the Resistance ships, which there should have been as a matter of course just to watch for anything they might be doing. The transports were only cloaked from electronic detection, not visible detection; when your plan can be foiled by the enemy looking out the window it's a terrible plan. Of course, this comes back to the bad guys being idiots, like pretty much every bad guy in the history of fiction always is because otherwise the bad guys would win, every Bond villain ever for example.

So, the ships are far enough apart that bombardment via Capital-class Turbolaser Fire is ineffectual against cruiser shields, but you expect some dude to randomly be able to see some tiny ships?

Stormtroopers eating their carrots, I guess.

 

[Falling_v1legacy]

He's not in command, Snoke is.

Irrelevant. It's also Hux that talks about running them out of fuel. It's all his dumb plan. He's just lucky he has a good R&D department.

What rules? Where are these rules? There's nothing in the film about rules. You just made that up.

The Resistance just materialized a bomber fleet out of nowhere to take down a dreadnought, you think Snoke's gonna risk leavinging his flagship with a reduced CAP and assume the Resistance doesn't have a second one? Besides, it's clear Poe Dameron hasn't taken the field.

All speculation. The only reason given is that 'We' (meaning the fleet) 'can't cover you' (meaning Kylo and his two wing mates) wat. Send out more fighters, that should be sufficient cover. You need not send them all out- it doesn't take much to knock out another surprise bomber attack. Also I think the surprise of the bombers is more a trick of editing. It's not clear whether they jumped out of hyperspace or whether they were hiding in another ship. They just appear magically. So I'm a hesitant to read to much into that unless I know how the bombers got to where they were.

Look, sensors is Star Wars have always sucked all kinds of ass.

Which makes her plan even worse.

Blitzes only work until they're blunted. If the FO is like the Nazis, their logistical chain is a slow nightmare. So don't waste hyperspace fuel if you don't need to.

Speculation. This was never a reason given. All we know is that they want to kill them and this is the first film that makes fuel a thing. They introduce THAT very poorly too. First time fuel is a thing and all the Rebel ships are on empty? Whoever's in charge ought to be fired. Far better if their fuel tanks were damaged by a near miss from the Dreadnought or something so it doesn't come out of literally no where all to make this very contrived situation of an 18 hour treadmill plot line.

Starkiller Base wiped out an entire solar system from across the galaxy. That changes the game. More importantly, the FO pressed the attack after. They got support from other Imperial remnants.

But it's gone. And that's no different than the first and second time, just bigger and not it's exploded, and the Rebels did it faster this time too. (We're getting pretty good at this.) Why wouldn't you join the Rebels after that? They can shoot 'em down faster than they can build them, that's for sure. And this neo-Empire is clearly the same as the last lot.

And I have no idea what not-Empire is doing as these films are allergic to world building on the grand scale. (Wrong lesson to be learned from the prequels- Episode IV was great at dropping hints about the wider galaxy) Regardless. The weapon is gone. Which means they stirred up a hornets nest, but lost the weapon that could do it again. That should mean push back, big time. But both these films are intent on recreating the Originals in their own image instead of doing something creative and new. They just had to reboot back to Rebels and Empire instead of giving us a proper civil war between the New Republic and whomever.

I thought Luke's move was great up until he keeled over and died. I don't mind the ascendancy, but Luke story arc didn't have enough time to go from hero of the Originals to cowardly hobo, to ascendant master and gone (After teasing a whole movie about finding Luke.) It's character whiplash. Give me a third film where he can do a few more things, and then become ascendant, and I'd be okay, and I'd respect the trick.

As it is, he pretended he could die... so that he could actually die. But it's like going out with a stroke- not a great way to go as the Skywalker, Mr Big Deal himself, as far as Force Awakens was concerned. Without redeeming anyone, and the only reason anyone got saved is they got lucky. The dang Lassie foxes saved the day, I guess. Again more plot contrivances- Poe was right for the wrong reasons, seems how Luke ghosted into the base, he didn't need a back exit at all. For all Luke knows, he delayed them for a bit, and then the Walkers got the last of the rebels. Good job Luke, you delayed them for a bit, and then they died.

Nazis run on war material and fuel. They got those in spades and the Rebels have one transport ship and they're happy about it. Things have never been worse and they're happy. I don't see why anyone would join them now. Maybe wait ten or twenty years and try again. I think Stalin won. Wait for his funeral, maybe someone can power grab after.

 

[Falling_v1legacy]

Well, they didn't have anymore bombs.

So what? There was never a situation where they needed bombs. Look, this is basic storytelling. If you want to hit home that he dun goofed, you highlight that in a key moment where it is very obvious that the thing that got destroyed would've been very useful. And then we think: "Poe, you idiot. You dun goofed. We needed those bomber, NOW."

Did you see the bomb racks on those guys? If proton torpedos could do the trick, Poe would've just soloed the Dreadnought.

I saw them. I also saw in the most ideal scenario, they still could only get one bomber to kind of drop it's bombs, before dying. It doesn't matter how many bombs you have, if you can't get them to the target. You can sit on a mountain of bombs, and it's useless if they'll blow up in transit in every scenario except when the enemy has no guns whatsoever. (Was the New Republic in the habit of bombing defencless cities, maybe?)

The attack was delayed due to Poe's weapons getting knocked out. It was kind of a plot point, dunno if you missed it.

??? What does that have to do with no fighter screen. For the rest of the film, the ships have a fighter screen. In the opening battle. No fighters. Because the script said so. In all other battles, there would be a swarm of fighters already. How are they getting through?

The only reason the Raddus was around long enough for the Dreadnought to almost fire is because they were waiting on Poe's dumbass. They'd've been gone with plenty of time to spare is Poe'd backed off when he was ordered.

Never established. The best I could figure, they were still waiting around for transports to load. Or calculating coordinates, or any other reason. But they never actually gave a reason for the delay, so I assumed that they could not rather than would not. Because if they were waiting for Poe. They're dumb. A big ol' gun is spooling up to blast 'em. What's one disobedient squadron commander compared to a whole ship. The X-wings have hypedrives. Leave 'em in the parking lot and make him walk home. But they never gave a reason, so I gave the most charitable explanation at the time (I was till enjoying the film at that point in time, although weird warning flags were going off in the back of mine brain that I was suppressing.)

Waiting for Poe is a much worse look on Leia (who, can we be honest, never does much in the generaling department. She has no plans of action. It's just reaction and looking sad. I wish they turned her into a Jedi master to begin with and nevermind this whole 'she's not a princess, she's a general. Okay. Whatever. She doesn't do much of that either, and they wasted an opportunity to correct a huge oversight in the old EU- Leia was supposed to be equal in potential power to Luke. Random space flying is no consolation for this missed opportunity.)

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Irrelevant. It's also Hux that talks about running them out of fuel. It's all his dumb plan. He's just lucky he has a good R&D department.

What rules? Where are these rules? There's nothing in the film about rules. You just made that up.

The good guys say that if they get out from under the SDs, the fighters will fall back, and when they get out from under the SDs, the fighters fall back. Rule of engagement right there.

The Resistance just materialized a bomber fleet out of nowhere to take down a dreadnought, you think Snoke's gonna risk leavinging his flagship with a reduced CAP and assume the Resistance doesn't have a second one? Besides, it's clear Poe Dameron hasn't taken the field.

All speculation. The only reason given is that 'We' (meaning the fleet) 'can't cover you' (meaning Kylo and his two wing mates) wat. Send out more fighters, that should be sufficient cover. You need not send them all out- it doesn't take much to knock out another surprise bomber attack. Also I think the surprise of the bombers is more a trick of editing. It's not clear whether they jumped out of hyperspace or whether they were hiding in another ship. They just appear magically. So I'm a hesitant to read to much into that unless I know how the bombers got to where they were.

Pretty sure they warped in, considering their size and the fact we don't see hide nor hair of them or the A-wings. It clearly took Hux by surprise, at any rate. Dreadnought Captain twigged on pretty early, but he's not in charge.

Look, sensors is Star Wars have always sucked all kinds of ass.

Which makes her plan even worse.

...by making the cloaking plan feasible in the first place? If the FO didn't get that intel, they'd have been in the clear.

Blitzes only work until they're blunted. If the FO is like the Nazis, their logistical chain is a slow nightmare. So don't waste hyperspace fuel if you don't need to.

Speculation. This was never a reason given. All we know is that they want to kill them and this is the first film that makes fuel a thing. They introduce THAT very poorly too. First time fuel is a thing and all the Rebel ships are on empty? Whoever's in charge ought to be fired. Far better if their fuel tanks were damaged by a near miss from the Dreadnought or something so it doesn't come out of literally no where all to make this very contrived situation of an 18 hour treadmill plot line.

...are you seriously suggesting that the mere idea that ships run on some kind of fuel is a thing that needs to be specifically introduced?

Starkiller Base wiped out an entire solar system from across the galaxy. That changes the game. More importantly, the FO pressed the attack after. They got support from other Imperial remnants.

But it's gone. And that's no different than the first and second time, just bigger and not it's exploded, and the Rebels did it faster this time too. (We're getting pretty good at this.) Why wouldn't you join the Rebels after that? They can shoot 'em down faster than they can build them, that's for sure. And this neo-Empire is clearly the same as the last lot.

Well, there's this whole bit where the strongest fleet in the galaxy, the mainstay of the Republic, just got obliterated, while the FO has drastic fleet superiority and is launching attacks all across the Rim.

And I have no idea what not-Empire is doing as these films are allergic to world building on the grand scale. (Wrong lesson to be learned from the prequels- Episode IV was great at dropping hints about the wider galaxy) Regardless. The weapon is gone. Which means they stirred up a hornets nest, but lost the weapon that could do it again. That should mean push back, big time.

With what fleet?

But both these films are intent on recreating the Originals in their own image instead of doing something creative and new. They just had to reboot back to Rebels and Empire instead of giving us a proper civil war between the New Republic and whomever.

Yeah, like the EU, which was *checks notes* the New Republic vs various Imperial Remnants ad nauseum. Everybody gets a clone.

I thought Luke's move was great up until he keeled over and died. I don't mind the ascendancy, but Luke story arc didn't have enough time to go from hero of the Originals to cowardly hobo, to ascendant master and gone (After teasing a whole movie about finding Luke.) It's character whiplash. Give me a third film where he can do a few more things, and then become ascendant, and I'd be okay, and I'd respect the trick.

As it is, he pretended he could die... so that he could actually die. But it's like going out with a stroke- not a great way to go as the Skywalker, Mr Big Deal himself, as far as Force Awakens was concerned. Without redeeming anyone, and the only reason anyone got saved is they got lucky. The dang Lassie foxes saved the day, I guess. Again more plot contrivances- Poe was right for the wrong reasons, seems how Luke ghosted into the base, he didn't need a back exit at all. For all Luke knows, he delayed them for a bit, and then the Walkers got the last of the rebels. Good job Luke, you delayed them for a bit, and then they died.

Yeah, he couldn't possibly of come through the back deliberately to show them there was a way out. That's just a plot contrivance.

Nazis run on war material and fuel. They got those in spades and the Rebels have one transport ship and they're happy about it. Things have never been worse and they're happy. I don't see why anyone would join them now. Maybe wait ten or twenty years and try again. I think Stalin won. Wait for his funeral, maybe someone can power grab after.

They're happy they're alive, chillax.

Well, they didn't have anymore bombs.

So what? There was never a situation where they needed bombs. Look, this is basic storytelling. If you want to hit home that he dun goofed, you highlight that in a key moment where it is very obvious that the thing that got destroyed would've been very useful. And then we think: "Poe, you idiot. You dun goofed. We needed those bomber, NOW."

I dunno, a fleet of hyperspace capable bombers would probably be pretty useful when Snoke's flagship shows up. I'm sorry they didn't verbalize literally everything. Though I suppose they did need to put up signs saying that the movie goes silent for a bit. The situation where they needed bombs is "super tough targets like Dreadnoughts". You hit home that "he dun goofed" with, I dunno, an immediate dressing down by a respected superior officer. And, basic storytelling as it is, we aren't, necessarily, supposed to think he's in the wrong until later in the film. Around, I dunno, "we shouldn't tell Holdo that the FO is likely tracking us through hyperspace and probably don't need to worry about a spy, so here's our crazy plan"

Did you see the bomb racks on those guys? If proton torpedos could do the trick, Poe would've just soloed the Dreadnought.

I saw them. I also saw in the most ideal scenario, they still could only get one bomber to kind of drop it's bombs, before dying. It doesn't matter how many bombs you have, if you can't get them to the target. You can sit on a mountain of bombs, and it's useless if they'll blow up in transit in every scenario except when the enemy has no guns whatsoever. (Was the New Republic in the habit of bombing defencless cities, maybe?)

Fuck's sake, that situation was far from ideal. You've seen the movie, right? Poe takes a hit, shorting out his weapons before he takes out the last tower, delaying the attack long enough for the FO to finish deploying their fighter screen. Then, due to said fighter screen, the attack runs into some disastrous luck and leaves the attack force all but annihilated. If the attack had gon "ideally", the cannons would have been disabled faster, leaving the A-Wings to deal with a small number of disorganized TIEs, and giving the Bombers a much cleaner approach.

The attack was delayed due to Poe's weapons getting knocked out. It was kind of a plot point, dunno if you missed it.

??? What does that have to do with no fighter screen. For the rest of the film, the ships have a fighter screen. In the opening battle. No fighters. Because the script said so. In all other battles, there would be a swarm of fighters already. How are they getting through?

They were bombarding a base in the first battle, and had more than enough firepower to deal with the Resistance's meager capital ships. Seeing fighters approach would give them ample time to put a defense up. Only an madman would rocket boost into close range and disable the the surface batteries of a ship they couldn't otherwise hurt.

Do they have an active fighter screen the rest of the movie? I didn't notice. If they did, well, they just got caught with their pants down. Nazis may be stupid, but they are capable of some basic pattern recognition.

The only reason the Raddus was around long enough for the Dreadnought to almost fire is because they were waiting on Poe's dumbass. They'd've been gone with plenty of time to spare if Poe'd backed off when he was ordered.

Never established. The best I could figure, they were still waiting around for transports to load. Or calculating coordinates, or any other reason. But they never actually gave a reason for the delay, so I assumed that they could not rather than would not. Because if they were waiting for Poe. They're dumb. A big ol' gun is spooling up to blast 'em. What's one disobedient squadron commander compared to a whole ship. The X-wings have hypedrives. Leave 'em in the parking lot and make him walk home. But they never gave a reason, so I gave the most charitable explanation at the time (I was till enjoying the film at that point in time, although weird warning flags were going off in the back of mine brain that I was suppressing.)

Do you need literally everything spelled out for you, is that's what's going on here? The fact they went to hyperspace the instant his ship touched down in the hanger should signal something.

Waiting for Poe is a much worse look on Leia (who, can we be honest, never does much in the generaling department. She has no plans of action. It's just reaction and looking sad. I wish they turned her into a Jedi master to begin with and nevermind this whole 'she's not a princess, she's a general. Okay. Whatever. She doesn't do much of that either, and they wasted an opportunity to correct a huge oversight in the old EU- Leia was supposed to be equal in potential power to Luke. Random space flying is no consolation for this missed opportunity.)

She was busy. You know, fighting the FO, trying to convince folks that "no, the Nazis didn't all go away, we need a denazification program". Hell, movie 9 was supposed to be "hers", but real life is a ***** like that.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

Once again, not telling your crew is, on top of being villain coding in a story, an antiquated military leadership doctrine that was done away with for exactly the reasons that happen in the movie.

And again, Poe =/= "the crew". Hell, given the visceral reaction Poe had when he saw the transports being fueled up, I wouldn't be surprised if he wouldn't have tried to pull a mutiny if he'd known the plan from the start. He certainly never passed on the idea that the FO could track them through hyperspace.

Poe is part of the crew and yes, modern military doctrine is to have everyone from the generals to the grunts know the strategy and tactical plans. And if he still mutinied at that point, there'd be no way to blame Holdo and it wouldn't be any worse than what did happen. Using hindsight is a bit unfair, but Holdo is a fascist anyway.

As a side note, is there anyone left between Poe and the admiralty? Did the demotion even accomplish anything? I legit don't know, but I don't remember Holdo ever conferring with other people of rank.

For the most part, Holdo isn't a viewpoint character. We don't get to see most of her interactions.

That's why I don't know.

But in any case, that doesn't change the fact that Leia and Holdo overreacted in the first place to losing the fighters and bombers.

I dunno, acting against direct orders and getting two squadrons of people dead deserves at least a dressing down.

Possibly, but he still accomplished a good tactical goal.

Questionable, especially considering losses. Those bombers and fighter screens, provided they didn't reveal themselves once Poe's attack stalled, might've been able to launch a surprise attack on Snoke's flagship in the follow up. I'd be downright shocked if that ship wasn't at least as powerful as a Dreadnought. Fascists don't let their subordinates have bigger toys.

Well you are correct that it is "at least as powerful as a dreadnought". Snoke's flagship is the single largest ship ever made in Star Wars apart from the Death Star (if you consider that a ship). The dreadnoughts were over 7.6km long and 4km wide. The Supremacy was 13km long and 60km wide. Now, with just the TIE fighters at a dreadnought's disposal they barely failed to stop Poe's run and Poe was barely able to take out the point defense turrets and the bombers were just enough to destroy a dreadnought. The hell were they going to do to the Supremacy?

No, "she tried to kill us all and wouldn't tell us why" is a pretty good reason to be wary of such a commander.

Wait, what?

Exactly that. From Poe's position, Holdo's plan looked suicidal.

Poe thought that running away from an overwhelmingly superior military force was cowardice. A couple more Poe plans and he'd be the only member of the Resistance.

As a point of fact, due to the comedy of errors, Holdo's plan has reduced the resistance to 12 people or so. I mean, I know we're supposed to expect the FO to not try scanning for their stealth system, but were we going to expect them to not check the closest planet after their ships had been abandoned? Iirc, the FO knew when the ships were abandoned.

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

Poe is part of the crew and yes, modern military doctrine is to have everyone from the generals to the grunts know the strategy and tactical plans. And if he still mutinied at that point, there'd be no way to blame Holdo and it wouldn't be any worse than what did happen. Using hindsight is a bit unfair, but Holdo is a fascist anyway.

That's patently false. 'Grunts' are given a debrief of the theatre. Battlefield conditions. Likely opposition. Composition of enemy forces in theatre. Assignment of roles. The nature of the fight. Intelligence on enemy movements. A rundown of possible engagement sectors.

They aren't given a total run down of strategy. Mainly because that is well above their paygrade, and military operations are often planned for years. Besides, it's not even in your job detail. It's the commander's top priority to guarantee the safety and security of their soldiers in the pursuit of victory in the field.

Holdo, if she survived, will only have been thinking about how many letters she would have to give a personal spin on to family members of the deceased summed up as; "One of my pilots got your child killed while disobeying an order. Soz."

This is what makes Luke Skywalker's actions on Endor so utterly fucked up ... but apparently no one seems to bring up his gross immorality of surrendering to enemy forces before the fight even begins... If people still get shot for gross dereliction of duty, Luke Skywalker is a candidate.

Imagine him trying to explain himself to his superiors in a court martial...

----

"Hey ... like ... you know. I think my old man detected our presence approaching the moon, so I decided to talk to him prior the battle."

"Wait -- you engaged with enemy officers for a chat, after jeopardizing the operation, and in the process were captured--?"

"Well ... not so much captured as surrendered..."

"Wait--Okay, no. I literally can't think of any possible thing you can say to assuage what I'm feeling right now."

"It's okay ... I turned him over to the Light."

"And this influenced the nature of the battle.... how?"

"It totally didn't. No. The Death Star would have been blown up anyways. In fact, I defeated my father on the Death Star itself ... so ultimately it was kind of pointless. But you know ... my father died a Jedi! That's totally worth utter recklessness, insubordination and dereliction of duty right?"

----

Yet conspicuously that is never brought up...