Music Elitists

[lacktheknack]

Not very technical --> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bZkp7q19f0

Pretty technical --> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJWuXfiXYI0

ah...so the backing beat of that song isnt very musically complex? (I mean aside form the fact that no one is physically playing it) I guess I can kind of see that

Did you want something less drastic than that?

thats some fuckin piano playing 0_0.....

perhaps more mainstream/contemporay, when people talk about and point out bands they describe as technically complex (like dream theatre) I'm kind of wondering how it compares to the kind of stuff I generally like to listen too

I'll go the whole damn way, because that's how I roll.

<spoiler=POP>
Pop isn't generally very complex, usually consisting of a theme with looped backing, with the major variation being lyrical, but that's not ALWAYS true.

<youtube=9blSYZrT8lo>

"Fire in Your New Shoes" is very simple. It's literally a thudding drumbeat with the same two guitar licks repeated, with the occasional blast of synth. Still a bloody good song.

<youtube=QGJuMBdaqIw>

"Firework" is about as complex as pop reasonably gets. It has a rhythmic drumbeat with interrupts, a melodic backing that changes with the vocals, and a counterpoint in the instrumentation vs the vocals (although it loops). The vocals themselves cover a wide range of interesting directions, and occasionally clamp up to let the backing strings through. Still not spectacular, but what do you WANT from Katy Perry?

<spoiler=RAP>Almost by definition, rap beats have to be simple The appeal of rap is in the lyrics and lyrical rhythm, after all.

When it's at its simplest, it's almost insulting.

<youtube=pn1VGytzXus>

Thuuuuud CLAP Thuuuuud CLAAAAP CLAP repeat. Except when they're playing a simple broken dominant seventh chord over. It always sets up a slow and simple rap line. (I freaking love this song.)

On the more complex side is Jay and Ye.

<youtube=FJt7gNi3Nr4>

Fading dynamics, unusual beat, rap driven by the music rather than the other way, actual melody, oddly inserted samples. It's as complex as standard rap could be asked to be.

<spoiler=ROCK>Maaaaaan, rock is nebulous and hard to pin down.

<youtube=oQ4H0pP8DjE>

Progressive rock is the most complex with tons of dissonance and counterpoint (insane counterpoint, really), lots of instrumental breakdowns with dozens of variations, difficult-to-play riffs spread across multiple instruments and shifting themes. It's almost too complex, really.

Then, on the other side, we have this.

<youtube=y9ANOzmSKQg>

No words needed, really. Excellent song, though.

<spoiler=ELECTRONIC>Electronic wins both. The variation of complexity is stupid-massive.

Hell, I'll even use examples from the same composer.

<youtube=TkVT2NwiAgY>

Tap - tap - tap - tap - tap - tap - tap - Huaaaaaaw HUAAAAAAAAAW Huaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaw... Electronic ambient at its absolute finest.

And then a few years later he does this.

<youtube=h-9UvrLyj3k>

Dynamic variation, liberal use of stereo, speed-noise, finger-breaking beat speed, theme with major variations, entire changes in style, catching samples, dissonance, drums literally overwhelming the electric track, spoken word molded into wandering melody, counterpoint (the drums are playing so hard they actually make a secondary melody, which is terrifyingly impressive), sudden use of triplets, time signatures, key changes... it doesn't matter if you think it works, because it's still all there!

http://c.meh.cc/2347l.jpg

I haven't listened to enough metal or country to draw from a decent sampling.

Anyhow, if it turns out you like simple music and are confused by more "complex" stuff, that doesn't mean squat. If anything, it means you care more about the art versus the theory, which is arguably a much better thing. I have best of both worlds - I can appreciate a Deadmau5 dream track just as much as Fur Elise - but if you're comfortable with one level of music versus another, it really comes down to preference (again!). If anyone tries to tell you that your simple music makes you "less worthy" or something like that, please face-punch them for me.

EDIT: I accidentally a picture.

And holy carp, that took a while to type.

 

[zehydra]

If you're judging music simply for the lyrics, then you have no place judging music in the first place.

Black Dog is a classic because it has awesome riffs and rhythms. He could be singing pure nonsense sounds and the song would be just as awesome.

The reason pop music sucks is because it is entirely focused on the singer and his lyrics, rather than the blending of instruments and "emotion" of the sound.

If you're not a musician, then I probably won't care much about what you think about music, simply because your mind is not trained to think about music in the same way a musician is.

 

[zehydra]

I guess, I called them elitist because they believe their music is teh best ever and everything else is trash...but perhaps "ignorance" is a better term (because its not like AC/DC and guns roses is the epitome of musical brilliance)

and whats the deal with metal heads hating on Justin beiber? its like "dude....what did he do to you?"

They're less "elitist" and more pureblend idiots. Justin Beiber is a damn fine teen pop vocalist. People don't quite grasp the subtleties of a point as intricate as "If you don't already like the genre, you won't like him", not to mention they need to put a face on the villain of their entirely invented canon. They wish hard enough that they actually believe rock and metal are dead and all that remains are genres that they don't care for (not that they'll admit that, admitting you have preferences these days appears to be a cardinal sin but I can't imagine why.) It's much better to just claim entire genres aren't music so you have an excuse to be an ignorant weasel about them and come off as some informed pseudo-critic standing up for dying trends.

He's a good vocalist, but he's a mediocre songwriter and his producers butcher it all to hell.

 

[MonkeyGH]

@lacktheknack

Thanks for that last electronic song, man. I like electronic stuff, but I don't get into the bass drop stuff, I.E., Harlem Shake.

 

[zehydra]

He's a good vocalist, but he's a mediocre songwriter and his producers butcher it all to hell.

You can't apply rock values to teen pop, my friend. That's simply not how it works. I don't rag on death metal for their badly arranged horn sections.

Fine. I'll just say that teen pop is inherently anti-musical then.

 

[el_kabong]

He's a good vocalist, but he's a mediocre songwriter and his producers butcher it all to hell.

You can't apply rock values to teen pop, my friend. That's simply not how it works. I don't rag on death metal for their badly arranged horn sections.

Well, if it had a horn section, I think it would be fair game to rag on it.

Spoiler: For example

FULL DISCLOSURE: I was just randomly searching for death metal with orchestra. I don't actually want to rag on the song, because (sound quality aside) it's actually pretty sweet. Good random find.

 

[Vault101]

snip.

thankyou! that was excellent! (also I firggen love church in the wild)

They're less "elitist" and more pureblend idiots. Justin Beiber is a damn fine teen pop vocalist. People don't quite grasp the subtleties of a point as intricate as "If you don't already like the genre, you won't like him", not to mention they need to put a face on the villain of their entirely invented canon.

your probably onto somthing there, its nice to invent a "villan" thats coming to destroy all you like (obviously though Beiber and his ilk are not a new thing...not by a long shot)

its just fucking stupid how people go OUT OF THEIR way to get angry about somthing like that....unless somone is forcing you to listen to beiber all the time then no...your just acting like a psychopath.

The reason pop music sucks is because it is entirely focused on the singer and his lyrics, rather than the blending of instruments and "emotion" of the sound.

that sounds alot like rap......

[quote/]If you're not a musician, then I probably won't care much about what you think about music, simply because your mind is not trained to think about music in the same way a musician is.[/quote]
thats pretty harsh..I think I'm just as entitled to an opinon as much as any musician if I can explain why I do/dont like a song

I might not be a filmaker but I can tell when I'm watching a bad movie

 

[zehydra]

Also, this isn't 4Chan, that greentexting crap isn't going to work.

You're right. 4chan would know better.

Fine. I'll just say that teen pop is inherently anti-musical then.

Atta boy. If you don't know anything about music you might as well come out and admit it. I am surprised though. I thought, as a Led Zeppelin fan, you'd see the value in a great pop hook. Lord knows that's what carried their entire career (even if they were, technically, other people's pop hooks.) I guess if it's not obscured by wailing and blues rock fetishism it doesn't tickle your cocyx, eh? Fair enough

I know plenty. I don't care about the pop hooks. I'm more concerned with the instrumentation and production style. Teen pop is hell-bent on making people sound like robots and making the recordings sound like they were put together in friggin frooty-loops

 

[zehydra]

thats pretty harsh..I think I'm just as entitled to an opinon as much as any musician if I can explain why I do/dont like a song

I might not be a filmaker but I can tell when I'm watching a bad movie

actually, it's different with music. If you sing, write, or play an instrument, it will alter your perception of the music in such a way that would require significant training otherwise. That is, I am contradicting your statement. A non-musician's judgement about the quality of a song means very little.

 

[VanQ]

I don't think I'm an elitist but I certainly am very passionate about the music I love. Judging a song by its musical complexity isn't a very good way to judge music. I've heard plenty of acapella pieces that are far more brilliant than some of the fabricated and synthesized music you hear a lot of today.

I do miss the days of Gorillaz, Black Eyed Peas, Foo Fighters, Scatman John, Matchbox Twenty and even some of Eminem's work but I was pretty young around the time that stuff was popular so it may be nostalgia on my part. It just doesn't feel like there's as much stuff I like on the tube anymore.

I seriously can't believe Boy Bands are making a comeback but that may have something to do with the Twilight phenomenon and publishers realizing that young females are a legitimate revenue stream they can tap into. But thanks to the internet that isn't a problem. More artists have the freedom to produce and sell whatever kind of music they like. While I'm not too fond of dubstep for example, it's nice to see it's still possible to find decent grunge-rock out there.

 

[mojopin87]

He's a good vocalist, but he's a mediocre songwriter and his producers butcher it all to hell.

You can't apply rock values to teen pop, my friend. That's simply not how it works. I don't rag on death metal for their badly arranged horn sections.

That is such a cop out.

 

[Vault101]

A non-musician's judgement about the quality of a song means very little.

in regards to what exactly? if a song is good or bad? aside from the technical aspects theres just too much subjectivity

you also dont need to be a musician to pick out stuff thats kind of simple/generic/just plain bad

 

[lacktheknack]

thats pretty harsh..I think I'm just as entitled to an opinon as much as any musician if I can explain why I do/dont like a song

I might not be a filmaker but I can tell when I'm watching a bad movie

actually, it's different with music. If you sing, write, or play an instrument, it will alter your perception of the music in such a way that would require significant training otherwise. That is, I am contradicting your statement. A non-musician's judgement about the quality of a song means very little.

Dude, your perception doesn't change THAT much. (And to qualify that, I've only played piano for thirteen years, sang in choirs for nine, and played French horn for four.) It just gives you a big boost in pedantic analysis. Sure, you can pick out the musical ideas, mistakes and intent very easily, but it almost has a NEGATIVE effect on your big-picture observations and gives you an irritating +30 elitism that I've had to fight against for years. In the end, I want to entertain people who tend to not play instruments, so their opinions on how it sounds are very valuable indeed.

And you're saying that electronic pop is "against music"?

Please stop being so full of yourself. Just because you play an instrument and like more complex stuff doesn't make your opinion "more valid". It just makes it different.

 

[Nazulu]

C'mon man, you know it's not just about the lyrics. And even then, Led Zeppelins lyrics may seem simple but can actually be very exciting how they are executed. Robert Plant is an amazing singer and the songs were written perfectly to show off his talent.

Also, AC/DC is a pop band no doubt but it's mainly the style of being about rock and sex, that traditional vibe. Their music is not hiding any thing, and some of their riffs are tough as hell while their lyrics is just about good times. In today's pop scene, I can't even tell if they are really singing any more. It's all dressed up in electronic sounds and robot voices, and it's lame.

I can't explain it to you why those classic bands are amazing, but you should ask more often instead of just calling everyone who thinks today's music is rubbish are just elitists.

 

[Vault101]

Also, AC/DC is a pop band no doubt but it's mainly the style of being about rock and sex, that traditional vibe. Their music is not hiding any thing, and some of their riffs are tough as hell while their lyrics is just about good times. In today's pop scene, I can't even tell if they are really singing any more. It's all dressed up in electronic sounds and robot voices, and it's lame.

I can't explain it to you why those classic bands are amazing, but you should ask more often instead of just calling everyone who thinks today's music is rubbish are just elitists.

electronic "pop" and "rock" like ACDC are two very different beasts

 

[lacktheknack]

He's a good vocalist, but he's a mediocre songwriter and his producers butcher it all to hell.

You can't apply rock values to teen pop, my friend. That's simply not how it works. I don't rag on death metal for their badly arranged horn sections.

That is such a cop out.

Saying "You can't apply rock values to teen pop" is not a cop-out.

It's literally identical to me applying electronic standards to rock. And if I was to do that, I'd tell you it's all balls, and you'd be annoyed and maybe even indignant.

That's how teen-pop fans feel when you tell them it all sucks.

 

[mojopin87]

He's a good vocalist, but he's a mediocre songwriter and his producers butcher it all to hell.

You can't apply rock values to teen pop, my friend. That's simply not how it works. I don't rag on death metal for their badly arranged horn sections.

That is such a cop out.

Saying "You can't apply rock values to teen pop" is not a cop-out.

It's literally identical to me applying electronic standards to rock. And if I was to do that, I'd tell you it's all balls, and you'd be annoyed and maybe even indignant.

That's how teen-pop fans feel when you tell them it all sucks.

Actually, what you and he are doing is saying that we shouldn't expect quality work in that genre, in terms of production or songwriting, which is far more insulting IMO. Songwriting and production quality are not exclusive to a genre. Rather, we expect different things stylistically depending on the genre. While I don't expect teen pop to have anything important, deep, insightful, or original to say lyrically, I would expect them to at least be catchy or smooth or at least coherent in some way. There is no excuse for cringeworthy/awkward lyrics if the idea is broad appeal. Likewise, the production should be polished and pleasing to the ear.

I just think that if people continue to tolerate mediocrity in any genre by hiding behind the idea that we are only permitted to offer criticism in a very narrow, genre specific fashion, it's hardly surprising if there is no ambition to do better.

 

[springheeljack]

I can be a bit of a music elitist but I would say that on the whole I am very open to many different types of music(every genre is on there at least once) Now there are some artists I do not care for but instead of complaining in the youtube comments I just try and actively avoid listening to it

 

[MorphingDragon]

Everything else I will wave off as a matter of different tastes.

Justin Beiber's baby might as well be someones orgasm babbling lyricalized.

 

[Nazulu]

Also, AC/DC is a pop band no doubt but it's mainly the style of being about rock and sex, that traditional vibe. Their music is not hiding any thing, and some of their riffs are tough as hell while their lyrics is just about good times. In today's pop scene, I can't even tell if they are really singing any more. It's all dressed up in electronic sounds and robot voices, and it's lame.

I can't explain it to you why those classic bands are amazing, but you should ask more often instead of just calling everyone who thinks today's music is rubbish are just elitists.

electronic "pop" and "rock" like ACDC are two very different beasts

They certainly are, which explains why the fans are so divided.

Just to make sure, I am not saying every "electronic" band is lame. I'm just saying it's how alot of pop stars go about it these days.