Music Elitists

[RedDeadFred]

Because I respect their skills as musicians, not just as artists.

To me, it's infinity harder to play a good guitar solo, live, with 3 or 4 other band members while staying on key, and all on the same 1,2,3 and 4's.

Opposed to standing on stage lip-syncing while your back ground dancer put more time in their work then you ever did.

Or earning your fortune by having the auto-tune squeeze your voice is such a way that even GLaDos sounds human.

I have respect for bands like Iron Maiden, still touring, still making great albums for more then 20 years, while current pop-stars are not artists, they're products.

This, all of this.

There's even a scientific study that says pop music is getting more and more simple. Don't ask me to find it, it was on the Escapist and it was something along the lines of: Your Grandma Was Right all Along. Pretty much anyone can sound okay with auto-tune if they have basic singing skills. The elitists that the OP are talking about just don't respect the pop artists as much.

OK, so pop is getting simpler.

So what?

Is "simpler" worse, somehow?

One of my favorite songs ever (if not actually my favorite) consists of five chords repeated over and over and over for seven minutes. It's physically impossible to get much simpler than that. How is the song so incredibly touching and moving to me if simple = bad?

Short answer: It's the opposite. Simple is much better at moving raw emotion. However, I'd wager that it takes more skill to condense music like that. Besides, even if you're guaranteed to sound good singing, that doesn't account for songwriting, instrumentation, stage presence, or charisma. All of those are also important, and pop stars have those nailed right the hell down (maybe not always the songwriting one, but still, I'd rather listen to them than a garage band with brilliant music drowned by irritating everything else).

Who said anything about garage bands?

Also, I'm sorry but a lot of the instrumentation in pop songs is not THAT hard to do. Seriously, play around with Garage Band (software for Mac) and you can come up with some pretty good beats. There are obviously exceptions to this. Kanye West for example comes up with genius and creative beats that require a lot of talent but so many pop songs just have a simple beat that's easy to dance to and then they but some extremely basic melody over top of it and add lyrics about going to clubs and having sex.

What about stage presence and charisma? They just don't seem as important to me. They only matter at concerts or for music videos but then that's not the music. That's the show built around it. Sure I acknowledge that pop artists are talented here but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the actual music.

As for simplicity of it, that's not necessarily the problem (ya I guess I kind of misspoke in my earlier post so my bad, I'll admit to the mistake). It's that the lyrics over top of it are forcing you to think about whatever shit they are talking about. Yes simple can be great but not when the lyrics are constraining what you can emotionally draw from.
For example, In C by Terry Riley is quite simple but it allows you to draw on whatever emotions you want because it doesn't have "Baby baby baby oh" sitting on top of it.
If you like this type of music I would highly recommend looking into the various minimalist types of music from the later 1900's. La Monte Young's Well Tuned Piano (playing off the title of Bach's Well Tempered Clavier) in particular is amazing. Regardless of your opinion on my post I would highly suggest listening to it. Probably not the whole thing in one sitting though:
Yes both of these pieces that I have mentioned so far are instrumental but there are simple pieces with words that can still illicit powerful emotional responses. Steve Reich's Come Out is a perfect example of this. It's mainly just a man saying "come out" over and over again. However, he has two recordings of it going at once and one is ever so slightly faster than the other. The two become farther and farther apart until you stop thinking about the words and just experience the unique sounds the piece offers.

As far as simple creating a more intense emotional response, well that's just a matter of opinion. I personally find more complex music more satisfying emotionally but both are great.

Lastly, you said music cannot get more simple than the same chord being played over and over. Well I'll see your piece and raise you John Cage's 4'33". 4 minutes and 33 seconds of silence. Illustrating that even in silence, there music.

 

[Nazulu]

Are saying Baby isn't repetitive and boring? Because I find it is, I am saying it as an opinion. Sorry if you got confused. You haven't proven any thing and assuming how peoples minds work doesn't work.

You don't appear to understand how arguments, or conversation in general for that matter, work. Yeah, we're supposed to assume how we think based on the statements he's made and that's what we've been doing. You are reaching so hard you risk dislocating your shoulder. I mean "stop assuming how he thinks"? Are you fucking kidding me? As long as we're bringing up completely tertiary shit you forgot the word "you" between "Are" and "saying". Ergo, I win.

It's exactly the same.

Also, how do you miss Picard's point so hard? I couldn't have made it more obvious if I tried, lord knows I tried. I'm not even going to explain it. That's just pointless. If you didn't grasp it the first time then I can't help you. I'm not sure who can help you but I wish you luck.

I'm not entirely without compassion so here's a hint: This conversation is NOT about whether or not "Baby" is a good song. It's not even about whether or not "teen pop" is good music. That's a red herring. Search elsewhere.

Oh OK. You win the fluff award for assuming how people think. Keep doing that. I'm sure you'll make lots of friends. I love how you didn't get what he was saying by the way, and that lovely assumption of how he just means "bleh, I don't like it". You do that to someones face and see how that goes.

Repetition is the way I prefer my music. So no, I think it's fantastic.

What were you saying about biased opinions, again?

Although if you're going to maintain that "Baby" is all that is wrong with music, then yeah, this is a very pointless argument.

I demand to know what you mean by "assuming how his mind works", though. You might notice that we actually came to agreement on the subject, the difference in opinion is now about to what extent different expectations should be used. Because we didn't assume a thing, we simply read what he wrote and reacted accordingly.

For that matter, I demand to know how "Baby" is more repetitive than, say, "Sweet Child of Mine".

You just don't get it do you. I already admitted it's my opinion. Repetition will be judged harshly. The word Baby becomes grating after the 4th time. This is off topic by the way, I wasn't talking about criticising a song, I just hate that song.

And you were assuming, it isn't as easy as what you said. It's come down to you misunderstanding him originally (no surprise there). Look at Crunks lovely response in post 71. Of course there is going to be confusion when your just making assumptions and hurling flames. I don't like Crunk, he's a bit too aggresive to have a proper discussion with.

 

[shadow_Fox81]

Frankly there isn't enough musical elitism( i'd define it differently but whatever).

there is so much music around now there is no sense of music aspiring to the sense of artistic or social potentsy it once had.So often people just find a niche and live in it (and i agree hard rock/metal is one of those groups).these niche intrests are the problems (i think this wave of indie music being the most insipid, I'm looking at JJJ here)

Very rare is it to find an appreciator of music who loves all music of quality, who can see an unroken line in musical lineage from past to present and loves it all. Elitism should be the aspiration of the music lover, but an elitism based on reason and appreciation of diversity.

How is Led Zeppelin IV an artistic masterpiece?

yeah you'll need to start a new thread if you want to insult the 70's most brilliantly bomabstic pieces of ultra heavy blues and get away with. just listen to it properly from start to finish then when youre done we'll talk, if you didn't get it thats ok.

 

[AeroZeppelinSevenfold]

I'm a bit guilty of this regarding Nickelback and Justin Bieber. Both artists have huge amounts of songs in their own catalog that sound alike. It's just a bit grating after a while. I try not to be a condescending prick about it, but I do like to voice my hatred for the bland music that plays on the radio all the time.

I am a musician, so I can understand that people don't demand as much from music as I do. Someone once told me that I analyze music too much instead of enjoying it. That could be true, but I get a huge kick out of analyzing music that I enjoy, and really digging into the inner workings of the song. That is what I want from music. Pop music doesn't give me that, so I don't enjoy it.

I think that anyone who shows even a little elitism, myself included, should just do their own thing and not worry about what other people enjoy. I should really take my own advice.

Because I respect their skills as musicians, not just as artists.

To me, it's infinity harder to play a good guitar solo, live, with 3 or 4 other band members while staying on key, and all on the same 1,2,3 and 4's.

Opposed to standing on stage lip-syncing while your back ground dancer put more time in their work then you ever did.

Or earning your fortune by having the auto-tune squeeze your voice is such a way that even GLaDos sounds human.

I have respect for bands like Iron Maiden, still touring, still making great albums for more then 20 years, while current pop-stars are not artists, they're products.

This sums up my feelings exactly as a musician. I can't get into something that feels like it didn't take much work. Auto-tune is disgusting.

Oh yeah. The not being an elitist thing. I failed at that.

 

[likalaruku]

It's not about WHAT's popular so much as HOW it became popular. Cracked wrote an article about the music industry that people already suspected & some radio DJs have confirmed.


http://www.cracked.com/article_20256_5-things-record-labels-dont-want-you-to-know-they-do.html

 

[Nazulu]

Frankly there isn't enough musical elitism( i'd define it differently but whatever).

there is so much music around now there is no sense of music aspiring to the sense of artistic or social potentsy it once had.So often people just find a niche and live in it (and i agree hard rock/metal is one of those groups).these niche intrests are the problems (i think this wave of indie music being the most insipid, I'm looking at JJJ here)

Very rare is it to find an appreciator of music who loves all music of quality, who can see an unroken line in musical lineage from past to present and loves it all. Elitism should be the aspiration of the music lover, but an elitism based on reason and appreciation of diversity.

How is Led Zeppelin IV an artistic masterpiece?

yeah you'll need to start a new thread if you want to insult the 70's most brilliantly bomabstic pieces of ultra heavy blues and get away with. just listen to it properly from start to finish then when youre done we'll talk, if you didn't get it thats ok.

Don't use the word elitism to describe it, man. They mean it as that the person who is the elitist thinks he's better than everyone else. Say 'people aren't critical enough on the music scene' or what ever.

Also, would you actually believe anyone who does love all music of quality?

 

[Nazulu]

Oh OK. You win the fluff award for assuming how people think. Keep doing that. I'm sure you'll make lots of friends. I love how you didn't get what he was saying by the way, and that lovely assumption of how he just means "bleh, I don't like it". You do that to someones face and see how that goes.

It's pretty clear that nothing I say to you matters. I could have said anything and your reply would have largely been the same. You don't want to hear another perspective or engage in a discussion because that would conflict with the continuity you've set for yourself. You either misconstrue or outright ignore crucial points while entirely inventing ones of your own. I can't have a conversation with someone who does this.

I don't want a conversation with you. You make passive aggresive reply's and I don't care for it. And you're assuming again like usual.

 

[Bestival]

We were playing Guitar Hero the other day, and the girlfriend of one of the guys there didn't look like she was greatly enjoying it. So I asked her what type of music she likes, maybe there was something along those lines in one of the games.

"Oh, I like whatever is in the Top 10." She responded. This is what gets my goat, this is not an acceptable answer. You haven't developed a taste, have no opinion of your own.


To me truly great music is when you can take the lyrics away and you're left with a great instrumental piece, and you can take the music away and the lyrics turn into an epic poem.

 

[Vault101]

Frankly there isn't enough musical elitism( i'd define it differently but whatever).

there is so much music around now there is no sense of music aspiring to the sense of artistic or social potentsy it once had.So often people just find a niche and live in it (and i agree hard rock/metal is one of those groups).these niche intrests are the problems (i think this wave of indie music being the most insipid, I'm looking at JJJ here)

Very rare is it to find an appreciator of music who loves all music of quality, who can see an unroken line in musical lineage from past to present and loves it all. Elitism should be the aspiration of the music lover, but an elitism based on reason and appreciation of diversity.

but thats the thing...people have tastes and preferences, I like different songs from a wide range of genres but there are still things I gravitate towards...like eletronic and synthy sounding stuff, stuff with a certain beat, I'm not sure I'll ever fully apreciate metal or rock even though there are a few songs from that genre I like.

this isnt only with music but with EVERYTHING

some people prefer sci fi to high fantasy, some people prefer thourghtful drama movies to action block busters, some people like to read non fiction rather than fiction, some people like the colur red, others the colur blue

its not somthing that can be helped really

 

[shadow_Fox81]

Don't use the word elitism to describe it, man. They mean it as that the person who is the elitist thinks he's better than everyone else.

who does love all music of quality?

on elitism; though it was rather a rash choice to use the term, elitism is almost always externally ascribed to a group .The music elitist didn't put that label on themselves did they?any It was put on them as it has been on many others in many disciplines and feilds; to hurt the integrity of their convictions, knowledge, argument and love something they care deeply about.

my distaste for the term asside, i would prefer the term "professional appreciator of music" but you know any label is easily associated with the "E" word.

on the second point, Johnny cash did and he was a country musician so anyhtings possible.

 

[Alleged_Alec]

Em maybe I'm wrong but this comes off as a bit elitist. You keep mentioning that you like prog rock as though that adds to your argument and then say

AC/DC and Guns n' Roses are, by my definition, pop music. They write commercial, accessible music that follows the 4 chords, verse/chorus, three minutes structure.

It sounds like "If anyone should be elitist it's me, I mean I listen to prog rock." It doesn't sound like you're criticising elitism, it sounds like you're criticising elitists who don't have your superior music taste.

Dream Theater fan, what do you expect?

i think he is justs mad that his dad called his new Dream Theater cd a piece of crap

Actually: Dream Theater has some really good songs. It's just a shame that Petrucci and Labrie are a little too prominent from time to time.


And I guess some people would call me an elitist. I generally avoid listening to top X music, most of the bands I listen to are either dead or consist mostly of septuagenarians.
I do have my reasons for this: I have a hardon for complex stuff like http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6WSLG5r-wE , I don't really care for the entire music industry in the first place, but back in those days, they pretty much kept out of the process of bands doing stuff.
A few things I hate:
- Punk. I never heard a punk song I liked, but I'm also quite biased because they pretty much killed prog rock.
- Bad concerts. I love live music. It allows bands to do cool musical stuff, like Transatlantic covering most of Abbey Road in Suit Charlotte Pike, or enhance their music with imagery, as Pink Floyd did with The Wall. However, I do not want to see some mildly unattractive women prancing around in skanky clothes butchering an already bland song.
- Which follows nicely into bad autotuning. Yes, it's a fun tool when used in moderation. I'd still rather they did not use it, but when they do, they could at least pay enough attention not to fuck stuff up by making people sound like a fucking robot.

 

[launchpadmcqwak]

Because I respect their skills as musicians, not just as artists.

To me, it's infinity harder to play a good guitar solo, live, with 3 or 4 other band members while staying on key, and all on the same 1,2,3 and 4's.

Opposed to standing on stage lip-syncing while your back ground dancer put more time in their work then you ever did.

Or earning your fortune by having the auto-tune squeeze your voice is such a way that even GLaDos sounds human.

I have respect for bands like Iron Maiden, still touring, still making great albums for more then 20 years, while current pop-stars are not artists, they're products.

You sir, have won the thread. This is the reason that music elitism and people like me, you, and the OP exist. I love Dream Theater and Pink Floyd to all hell, but I understand why people would not like them. I, like you, respect their music and the meaning of what it means to be a musician.

There's also the fact that I'm a violinist myself and good music is engrained into my bones. I hate pop music as it isn't musically sound. I can't listen to auto-tuned music and repetitive beats as my mind needs more. I NEED music with proper tone shifts. I NEED music with different takes on the scales. I NEED something that's rhythmically diverse. I NEED music that makes me feel.

I need them, as I cannot have my music any other way.

Oh sure, some people are going to still prefer pop music. Would I look at them like I'm inferior? No! Will I convict them of not getting the balls to go out of their safety net? Yes. There is good music out there that many people are flat out ignoring, and it makes me unhappy in a sense. Unhappy that because of them choosing to support the pop artists, I may not be able to enjoy and get more of what I like.

maybe...the pop music makes them feel something that your "challenging" music makes you feel?.

 

[AnarchistFish]

I'm a bit of a music elitist to be honest

Although the Bieber hate pisses me off cos it's just mob rule and people copying everyone else. Often the people who complain about pop music a lot listen to equally awful music themselves.

 

[CCountZero]

Snip

Couldn't agree more. I really don't understand mainstream music simply because it seems...bland? But yes, it is really tailored to the lowest common denominator.

Being a musician...I'm selfish and only want to play the kind of music I actually enjoy playing.

Frankly, that's not selfish at all. Look at the 60s, 70s and 80s, and think about how many youngsters started playing just because of bands like the Stones, the Who, etc.

Does anyone really think that pop music is gonna make anyone sit down and go "Hey, I want to learn how to play the guitar" or any other instrument?

Sure, we might get a whole heap of singers, and X-Factor's already doing what it can to flood us as well, but what good is that gonna do?

You need at least two musicians for every singer anyway, and even then it's not at all uncommon for break-through bands to have more than four guys on instruments.

We're basically well on our way to killing off human interest in music that doesn't come out of an Xbox.

 

[Nazulu]

Don't use the word elitism to describe it, man. They mean it as that the person who is the elitist thinks he's better than everyone else.

who does love all music of quality?

on elitism; though it was rather a rash choice to use the term, elitism is almost always externally ascribed to a group .The music elitist didn't put that label on themselves did they?any It was put on them as it has been on many others in many disciplines and feilds; to hurt the integrity of their convictions, knowledge, argument and love something they care deeply about.

my distaste for the term asside, i would prefer the term "professional appreciator of music" but you know any label is easily associated with the "E" word.

on the second point, Johnny cash did and he was a country musician so anyhtings possible.

Yes, that has always been one of the main problems in all society's, and that's labeling others. You are 100% right that people mainly just use it to describe the people they dislike and make them sound like a villain, instead of trying to be understanding and find out where every one is coming from. It's not completely their fault though when there are so many idiots that actually fit the labels.

People like to think that others are no better at anything, when the reality is that the people who are passionate about certain hobbies realise how truly ignorant those who aren't into those things. Art is very complex we have to remember. There are many ways to judge music, but they can all be judged, just not perfectly by one person. I couldn't imagine it but it's not impossible I guess.

Did Johnny Cash really like all quality songs, quality as in all the songs certain strengths? Cause some bands write great riffs mainly, others write great lyrics, and some just put on a great perfromance. Like I said, I couldn't imagine it but it's not impossible I guess.

 

[launchpadmcqwak]

how come in an elitists eyes, technicality is valued more than how a song is written, or how it makes you feel.
E.G Regular John by queens of the stone age gives me a way better feeling than any track on Metropolis part2 (dream theater)

(or if you want the best of both worlds you can listen to Mastodon...god they are good)

 

[hazabaza1]

I don't know why I came into this thread expecting civil discussion when the title of the damn thing describes what it will inevitably be (and was quickly) filled with.

 

[Calibanbutcher]

We were playing Guitar Hero the other day, and the girlfriend of one of the guys there didn't look like she was greatly enjoying it. So I asked her what type of music she likes, maybe there was something along those lines in one of the games.

"Oh, I like whatever is in the Top 10." She responded. This is what gets my goat, this is not an acceptable answer. You haven't developed a taste, have no opinion of your own.


To me truly great music is when you can take the lyrics away and you're left with a great instrumental piece, and you can take the music away and the lyrics turn into an epic poem.

Well, I would agree with your last point, since it is a nice idea in and of itself, still I beg to differ.
Why?
Well, I would like to present to you the workings of the late Johnny Cash.

The music used in his songs is usually quite simplistic and nowhere near good enough to stand alone, but seeing as most of the music was written to support and accentuate his singing , I would still argue that his is truly great music, even if, or rather, especially since it would not work without his voice.

 

[repeating integers]

Who the fuck copy pasted this thread into /mu/?

In case you think he's joking. [http://boards.4chan.org/mu/res/33428032]

 

[Froggy Slayer]

I like music elitists. I like to pick them apart by making fun of their shit .

You like death metal? Really? I think all their lead singers sound like the cookie monster: "graaarrr! mwarrrr! CISFORCOOKIEGOODENOUGHFORME!"

Speed Metal? Oh, you mean polka-metal! Love that stuff, man!

You like emo? Naw, too easy

You've never met a music elitist in your life. Just as a little experiment, take that to /mu/ and see how it works out for you.

People in this thread seriously underestimating what these people are capable of. Nothing sways them. They're like autistic rocks.

Challenge accepted, sir! As long as they're the kind of elitists that you find on /tv/, I should be cool.