Music Elitists

VanQ

Casual Plebeian
Oct 23, 2009
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I don't think I'm an elitist but I certainly am very passionate about the music I love. Judging a song by its musical complexity isn't a very good way to judge music. I've heard plenty of acapella pieces that are far more brilliant than some of the fabricated and synthesized music you hear a lot of today.

I do miss the days of Gorillaz, Black Eyed Peas, Foo Fighters, Scatman John, Matchbox Twenty and even some of Eminem's work but I was pretty young around the time that stuff was popular so it may be nostalgia on my part. It just doesn't feel like there's as much stuff I like on the tube anymore.

I seriously can't believe Boy Bands are making a comeback but that may have something to do with the Twilight phenomenon and publishers realizing that young females are a legitimate revenue stream they can tap into. But thanks to the internet that isn't a problem. More artists have the freedom to produce and sell whatever kind of music they like. While I'm not too fond of dubstep for example, it's nice to see it's still possible to find decent grunge-rock out there.
 

mojopin87

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Jun 5, 2009
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CrunkParty said:
zehydra said:
He's a good vocalist, but he's a mediocre songwriter and his producers butcher it all to hell.
You can't apply rock values to teen pop, my friend. That's simply not how it works. I don't rag on death metal for their badly arranged horn sections.
That is such a cop out.
 

Vault101

I'm in your mind fuzz
Sep 26, 2010
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zehydra said:
A non-musician's judgement about the quality of a song means very little.
in regards to what exactly? if a song is good or bad? aside from the technical aspects theres just too much subjectivity

you also dont need to be a musician to pick out stuff thats kind of simple/generic/just plain bad
 

lacktheknack

Je suis joined jewels.
Jan 19, 2009
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zehydra said:
Vault101 said:
thats pretty harsh..I think I'm just as entitled to an opinon as much as any musician if I can explain why I do/dont like a song

I might not be a filmaker but I can tell when I'm watching a bad movie
actually, it's different with music. If you sing, write, or play an instrument, it will alter your perception of the music in such a way that would require significant training otherwise. That is, I am contradicting your statement. A non-musician's judgement about the quality of a song means very little.
Dude, your perception doesn't change THAT much. (And to qualify that, I've only played piano for thirteen years, sang in choirs for nine, and played French horn for four.) It just gives you a big boost in pedantic analysis. Sure, you can pick out the musical ideas, mistakes and intent very easily, but it almost has a NEGATIVE effect on your big-picture observations and gives you an irritating +30 elitism that I've had to fight against for years. In the end, I want to entertain people who tend to not play instruments, so their opinions on how it sounds are very valuable indeed.

And you're saying that electronic pop is "against music"?

Please stop being so full of yourself. Just because you play an instrument and like more complex stuff doesn't make your opinion "more valid". It just makes it different.
 

Nazulu

They will not take our Fluids
Jun 5, 2008
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C'mon man, you know it's not just about the lyrics. And even then, Led Zeppelins lyrics may seem simple but can actually be very exciting how they are executed. Robert Plant is an amazing singer and the songs were written perfectly to show off his talent.

Also, AC/DC is a pop band no doubt but it's mainly the style of being about rock and sex, that traditional vibe. Their music is not hiding any thing, and some of their riffs are tough as hell while their lyrics is just about good times. In today's pop scene, I can't even tell if they are really singing any more. It's all dressed up in electronic sounds and robot voices, and it's lame.

I can't explain it to you why those classic bands are amazing, but you should ask more often instead of just calling everyone who thinks today's music is rubbish are just elitists.
 

Vault101

I'm in your mind fuzz
Sep 26, 2010
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Nazulu said:
Also, AC/DC is a pop band no doubt but it's mainly the style of being about rock and sex, that traditional vibe. Their music is not hiding any thing, and some of their riffs are tough as hell while their lyrics is just about good times. In today's pop scene, I can't even tell if they are really singing any more. It's all dressed up in electronic sounds and robot voices, and it's lame.

I can't explain it to you why those classic bands are amazing, but you should ask more often instead of just calling everyone who thinks today's music is rubbish are just elitists.
electronic "pop" and "rock" like ACDC are two very different beasts
 

lacktheknack

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mojopin87 said:
CrunkParty said:
zehydra said:
He's a good vocalist, but he's a mediocre songwriter and his producers butcher it all to hell.
You can't apply rock values to teen pop, my friend. That's simply not how it works. I don't rag on death metal for their badly arranged horn sections.
That is such a cop out.
Saying "You can't apply rock values to teen pop" is not a cop-out.

It's literally identical to me applying electronic standards to rock. And if I was to do that, I'd tell you it's all balls, and you'd be annoyed and maybe even indignant.

That's how teen-pop fans feel when you tell them it all sucks.
 

mojopin87

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Jun 5, 2009
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lacktheknack said:
mojopin87 said:
CrunkParty said:
zehydra said:
He's a good vocalist, but he's a mediocre songwriter and his producers butcher it all to hell.
You can't apply rock values to teen pop, my friend. That's simply not how it works. I don't rag on death metal for their badly arranged horn sections.
That is such a cop out.
Saying "You can't apply rock values to teen pop" is not a cop-out.

It's literally identical to me applying electronic standards to rock. And if I was to do that, I'd tell you it's all balls, and you'd be annoyed and maybe even indignant.

That's how teen-pop fans feel when you tell them it all sucks.
Actually, what you and he are doing is saying that we shouldn't expect quality work in that genre, in terms of production or songwriting, which is far more insulting IMO. Songwriting and production quality are not exclusive to a genre. Rather, we expect different things stylistically depending on the genre. While I don't expect teen pop to have anything important, deep, insightful, or original to say lyrically, I would expect them to at least be catchy or smooth or at least coherent in some way. There is no excuse for cringeworthy/awkward lyrics if the idea is broad appeal. Likewise, the production should be polished and pleasing to the ear.

I just think that if people continue to tolerate mediocrity in any genre by hiding behind the idea that we are only permitted to offer criticism in a very narrow, genre specific fashion, it's hardly surprising if there is no ambition to do better.
 

springheeljack

Red in Tooth and Claw
May 6, 2010
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I can be a bit of a music elitist but I would say that on the whole I am very open to many different types of music(every genre is on there at least once) Now there are some artists I do not care for but instead of complaining in the youtube comments I just try and actively avoid listening to it
 

Nazulu

They will not take our Fluids
Jun 5, 2008
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Vault101 said:
Nazulu said:
Also, AC/DC is a pop band no doubt but it's mainly the style of being about rock and sex, that traditional vibe. Their music is not hiding any thing, and some of their riffs are tough as hell while their lyrics is just about good times. In today's pop scene, I can't even tell if they are really singing any more. It's all dressed up in electronic sounds and robot voices, and it's lame.

I can't explain it to you why those classic bands are amazing, but you should ask more often instead of just calling everyone who thinks today's music is rubbish are just elitists.
electronic "pop" and "rock" like ACDC are two very different beasts
They certainly are, which explains why the fans are so divided.

Just to make sure, I am not saying every "electronic" band is lame. I'm just saying it's how alot of pop stars go about it these days.
 

lacktheknack

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mojopin87 said:
lacktheknack said:
mojopin87 said:
CrunkParty said:
zehydra said:
He's a good vocalist, but he's a mediocre songwriter and his producers butcher it all to hell.
You can't apply rock values to teen pop, my friend. That's simply not how it works. I don't rag on death metal for their badly arranged horn sections.
That is such a cop out.
Saying "You can't apply rock values to teen pop" is not a cop-out.

It's literally identical to me applying electronic standards to rock. And if I was to do that, I'd tell you it's all balls, and you'd be annoyed and maybe even indignant.

That's how teen-pop fans feel when you tell them it all sucks.
Actually, what you and he are doing is saying that we shouldn't expect quality work in that genre, in terms of production or songwriting, which is far more insulting IMO. Songwriting and production quality are not exclusive to a genre. Rather, we expect different things stylistically depending on the genre. While I don't expect teen pop to have anything important, deep, insightful, or original to say lyrically, I would expect them to at least be catchy or smooth or at least coherent in some way. There is no excuse for cringeworthy/awkward lyrics if the idea is broad appeal. Likewise, the production should be polished and pleasing to the ear.
You're doing it again.

"Baby" by Justing Bieber is a perfectly serviceable song for what it is. I never said that songwriting or production quality are exclusive to rock (I'm not even a major rock fan). It's just that you literally expect different things in different genres. Not BETTER things, DIFFERENT things. "Baby" was as catchy as hell at the time (it's worn off now), so it fills the mainstay of teen pop. The lyrics aren't particularly cringeworthy, they're just angsty teenaged-diary style lyrics (Taylor Swift does this too, but she's ACCLAIMED for it). Par for the course. And it sounds great, considering what it consists of.

It's just that you expect something else when you hear it, so you think it doesn't sound pleasing. I tend to find "classic rock" to be a bit boring and slow, you know, because my mainstay for years was face-melting electronic artists. However, I can adjust my expectations and enjoy it anyways, which is more than I can say for some people in this thread.
 

RedDeadFred

Illusions, Michael!
May 13, 2009
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Ranorak said:
Because I respect their skills as musicians, not just as artists.

To me, it's infinity harder to play a good guitar solo, live, with 3 or 4 other band members while staying on key, and all on the same 1,2,3 and 4's.

Opposed to standing on stage lip-syncing while your back ground dancer put more time in their work then you ever did.

Or earning your fortune by having the auto-tune squeeze your voice is such a way that even GLaDos sounds human.

I have respect for bands like Iron Maiden, still touring, still making great albums for more then 20 years, while current pop-stars are not artists, they're products.
This, all of this.

There's even a scientific study that says pop music is getting more and more simple. Don't ask me to find it, it was on the Escapist and it was something along the lines of: Your Grandma Was Right all Along. Pretty much anyone can sound okay with auto-tune if they have basic singing skills. The elitists that the OP are talking about just don't respect the pop artists as much.
 

Spambot 3000

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Aug 8, 2011
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The only thing that annoys me is when someone insists they only listen to 'real' music.
'As opposed to what?' I ask, 'Fucking, imaginary music?'
Seriously, if you think -insert genre you don't like here- isn't music, you are a fucking IDIOT.
There's this local radio station called Triple M, who play good music, not any teeny-bopper stuff, I quite like it, but their advertising hook is 'we only play real music'. This infuriates me to no end and I just KNOW it will encourage all the elitist, imbecile listeners to use the term. Be all snooty about your music tastes, I don't care about that, but if you mess with the English language I will fucking cut you.
 

Nazulu

They will not take our Fluids
Jun 5, 2008
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lacktheknack said:
mojopin87 said:
lacktheknack said:
mojopin87 said:
CrunkParty said:
zehydra said:
He's a good vocalist, but he's a mediocre songwriter and his producers butcher it all to hell.
You can't apply rock values to teen pop, my friend. That's simply not how it works. I don't rag on death metal for their badly arranged horn sections.
That is such a cop out.
Saying "You can't apply rock values to teen pop" is not a cop-out.

It's literally identical to me applying electronic standards to rock. And if I was to do that, I'd tell you it's all balls, and you'd be annoyed and maybe even indignant.

That's how teen-pop fans feel when you tell them it all sucks.
Actually, what you and he are doing is saying that we shouldn't expect quality work in that genre, in terms of production or songwriting, which is far more insulting IMO. Songwriting and production quality are not exclusive to a genre. Rather, we expect different things stylistically depending on the genre. While I don't expect teen pop to have anything important, deep, insightful, or original to say lyrically, I would expect them to at least be catchy or smooth or at least coherent in some way. There is no excuse for cringeworthy/awkward lyrics if the idea is broad appeal. Likewise, the production should be polished and pleasing to the ear.
You're doing it again.

"Baby" by Justing Bieber is a perfectly serviceable song for what it is. I never said that songwriting or production quality are exclusive to rock (I'm not even a major rock fan). It's just that you literally expect different things in different genres. Not BETTER things, DIFFERENT things. "Baby" was as catchy as hell at the time (it's worn off now), so it fills the mainstay of teen pop. The lyrics aren't particularly cringeworthy, they're just angsty teenaged-diary style lyrics (Taylor Swift does this too, but she's ACCLAIMED for it). Par for the course. And it sounds great, considering what it consists of.

It's just that you expect something else when you hear it, so you think it doesn't sound pleasing. I tend to find "classic rock" to be a bit boring and slow, you know, because my mainstay for years was face-melting electronic artists. However, I can adjust my expectations and enjoy it anyways, which is more than I can say for some people in this thread.
You're also doing it. You're assuming how his mind works. What you are doing is not factual but completely biased opinion. Also, you're discussing quality, which you are never going to prove for a such a boring repeptitive song like Baby.

I'm not trying to be mean, but your argument falls just as flat as his.
 

lacktheknack

Je suis joined jewels.
Jan 19, 2009
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RedDeadFred said:
Ranorak said:
Because I respect their skills as musicians, not just as artists.

To me, it's infinity harder to play a good guitar solo, live, with 3 or 4 other band members while staying on key, and all on the same 1,2,3 and 4's.

Opposed to standing on stage lip-syncing while your back ground dancer put more time in their work then you ever did.

Or earning your fortune by having the auto-tune squeeze your voice is such a way that even GLaDos sounds human.

I have respect for bands like Iron Maiden, still touring, still making great albums for more then 20 years, while current pop-stars are not artists, they're products.
This, all of this.

There's even a scientific study that says pop music is getting more and more simple. Don't ask me to find it, it was on the Escapist and it was something along the lines of: Your Grandma Was Right all Along. Pretty much anyone can sound okay with auto-tune if they have basic singing skills. The elitists that the OP are talking about just don't respect the pop artists as much.
OK, so pop is getting simpler.

So what?

Is "simpler" worse, somehow?

One of my favorite songs ever (if not actually my favorite) consists of five chords repeated over and over and over for seven minutes. It's physically impossible to get much simpler than that. How is the song so incredibly touching and moving to me if simple = bad?

Short answer: It's the opposite. Simple is much better at moving raw emotion. However, I'd wager that it takes more skill to condense music like that. Besides, even if you're guaranteed to sound good singing, that doesn't account for songwriting, instrumentation, stage presence, or charisma. All of those are also important, and pop stars have those nailed right the hell down (maybe not always the songwriting one, but still, I'd rather listen to them than a garage band with brilliant music drowned by irritating everything else).
 

lacktheknack

Je suis joined jewels.
Jan 19, 2009
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Nazulu said:
lacktheknack said:
mojopin87 said:
lacktheknack said:
mojopin87 said:
CrunkParty said:
zehydra said:
He's a good vocalist, but he's a mediocre songwriter and his producers butcher it all to hell.
You can't apply rock values to teen pop, my friend. That's simply not how it works. I don't rag on death metal for their badly arranged horn sections.
That is such a cop out.
Saying "You can't apply rock values to teen pop" is not a cop-out.

It's literally identical to me applying electronic standards to rock. And if I was to do that, I'd tell you it's all balls, and you'd be annoyed and maybe even indignant.

That's how teen-pop fans feel when you tell them it all sucks.
Actually, what you and he are doing is saying that we shouldn't expect quality work in that genre, in terms of production or songwriting, which is far more insulting IMO. Songwriting and production quality are not exclusive to a genre. Rather, we expect different things stylistically depending on the genre. While I don't expect teen pop to have anything important, deep, insightful, or original to say lyrically, I would expect them to at least be catchy or smooth or at least coherent in some way. There is no excuse for cringeworthy/awkward lyrics if the idea is broad appeal. Likewise, the production should be polished and pleasing to the ear.
You're doing it again.

"Baby" by Justing Bieber is a perfectly serviceable song for what it is. I never said that songwriting or production quality are exclusive to rock (I'm not even a major rock fan). It's just that you literally expect different things in different genres. Not BETTER things, DIFFERENT things. "Baby" was as catchy as hell at the time (it's worn off now), so it fills the mainstay of teen pop. The lyrics aren't particularly cringeworthy, they're just angsty teenaged-diary style lyrics (Taylor Swift does this too, but she's ACCLAIMED for it). Par for the course. And it sounds great, considering what it consists of.

It's just that you expect something else when you hear it, so you think it doesn't sound pleasing. I tend to find "classic rock" to be a bit boring and slow, you know, because my mainstay for years was face-melting electronic artists. However, I can adjust my expectations and enjoy it anyways, which is more than I can say for some people in this thread.
You're also doing it. You're assuming how his mind works. What you are doing is not factual but completely biased opinion. Also, you're discussing quality, which you are never going to prove for a such a boring repeptitive song like Baby.

I'm not trying to be mean, but your argument falls just as flat as his.
...and drags yours down with it.

You're saying repetitiveness is bad (or, for that matter, that "Baby" is particularly repetitive). That's a problem right there, especially if you're going to accuse me of being insensitive to opinion. Also, I'm not assuming anything about how his brain works. I'm stating statements based off what he's gone and said. He says teen pop doesn't sound pleasing. I've noticed that various genres require me to adjust to the tropes before I can enjoy them. I gave a perfect example (nothing encompasses teen pop tropes better than "Baby"). I've stated what I think the issue is.

What do you want me to do? Fall into the "Teen Pop Sucks" hivemind?