Music Elitists

Vault101

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Sep 26, 2010
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tautologico said:
Also, saying that music is "superior" due to it being technically more complex (something lots of people seem to be saying or implying in this thread) is akin to saying that a game is superior because it has better graphics.
yeah..I think simplcity can be very effective

 

MonkeyGH

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Vault101 said:
MonkeyGH said:
Vault 101,

I'm a drummer, so yes, I would say that the drum parts in both songs are very different. However, maybe I constructed my example badly because one is made using a computer (or whatever) while one is played with instruments. The piano guy has an excellent example of technicality. :)
yeah...I supose I ment more musically as "technically complex" can also refer to phsically playing it
Most definitely. :)
 

MonkeyGH

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CrunkParty said:
Grottnikk said:
I like music elitists. I like to pick them apart by making fun of their shit :).

You like death metal? Really? I think all their lead singers sound like the cookie monster: "graaarrr! mwarrrr! CISFORCOOKIEGOODENOUGHFORME!"

Speed Metal? Oh, you mean polka-metal! Love that stuff, man!

You like emo? Naw, too easy :)
You've never met a music elitist in your life. Just as a little experiment, take that to /mu/ and see how it works out for you.

People in this thread seriously underestimating what these people are capable of. Nothing sways them. They're like autistic rocks.
Can you give a specific example maybe? I'm really curious now, haha.
 

Vault101

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Sep 26, 2010
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CrunkParty said:
You've never met a music elitist in your life. Just as a little experiment, take that to /mu/ and see how it works out for you.

People in this thread seriously underestimating what these people are capable of. Nothing sways them. They're like autistic rocks.
well to be fair music elitists come in may shapes and sizes

there are the "oldies lovers"
the "metal heads"
the "hipsters"
the "music students"
 

Vault101

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Sep 26, 2010
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CrunkParty said:
I think the latter two only really apply. The term "elitist" implies some sort of understanding and knowledge and, based on observation, arbitrarily restricting your choices is the antithesis of "understanding and knowledge".
I guess, I called them elitist because they believe their music is teh best ever and everything else is trash...but perhaps "ignorance" is a better term (because its not like AC/DC and guns roses is the epitome of musical brilliance)

and whats the deal with metal heads hating on Justin beiber? its like "dude....what did he do to you?"
 

lacktheknack

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Jan 19, 2009
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Vault101 said:
MonkeyGH said:
:)

Not very technical --> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bZkp7q19f0

Pretty technical --> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJWuXfiXYI0
ah...so the backing beat of that song isnt very musically complex? (I mean aside form the fact that no one is physically playing it) I guess I can kind of see that
lacktheknack said:
Did you want something less drastic than that?
thats some fuckin piano playing 0_0.....

perhaps more mainstream/contemporay, when people talk about and point out bands they describe as technically complex (like dream theatre) I'm kind of wondering how it compares to the kind of stuff I generally like to listen too
I'll go the whole damn way, because that's how I roll.

<spoiler=POP>
Pop isn't generally very complex, usually consisting of a theme with looped backing, with the major variation being lyrical, but that's not ALWAYS true.

<youtube=9blSYZrT8lo>

"Fire in Your New Shoes" is very simple. It's literally a thudding drumbeat with the same two guitar licks repeated, with the occasional blast of synth. Still a bloody good song.

<youtube=QGJuMBdaqIw>

"Firework" is about as complex as pop reasonably gets. It has a rhythmic drumbeat with interrupts, a melodic backing that changes with the vocals, and a counterpoint in the instrumentation vs the vocals (although it loops). The vocals themselves cover a wide range of interesting directions, and occasionally clamp up to let the backing strings through. Still not spectacular, but what do you WANT from Katy Perry?

<spoiler=RAP>Almost by definition, rap beats have to be simple The appeal of rap is in the lyrics and lyrical rhythm, after all.

When it's at its simplest, it's almost insulting.

<youtube=pn1VGytzXus>

Thuuuuud CLAP Thuuuuud CLAAAAP CLAP repeat. Except when they're playing a simple broken dominant seventh chord over. It always sets up a slow and simple rap line. (I freaking love this song.)

On the more complex side is Jay and Ye.

<youtube=FJt7gNi3Nr4>

Fading dynamics, unusual beat, rap driven by the music rather than the other way, actual melody, oddly inserted samples. It's as complex as standard rap could be asked to be.

<spoiler=ROCK>Maaaaaan, rock is nebulous and hard to pin down.

<youtube=oQ4H0pP8DjE>

Progressive rock is the most complex with tons of dissonance and counterpoint (insane counterpoint, really), lots of instrumental breakdowns with dozens of variations, difficult-to-play riffs spread across multiple instruments and shifting themes. It's almost too complex, really.

Then, on the other side, we have this.

<youtube=y9ANOzmSKQg>

No words needed, really. Excellent song, though.

<spoiler=ELECTRONIC>Electronic wins both. The variation of complexity is stupid-massive.

Hell, I'll even use examples from the same composer.

<youtube=TkVT2NwiAgY>

Tap - tap - tap - tap - tap - tap - tap - Huaaaaaaw HUAAAAAAAAAW Huaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaw... Electronic ambient at its absolute finest.

And then a few years later he does this.

<youtube=h-9UvrLyj3k>

Dynamic variation, liberal use of stereo, speed-noise, finger-breaking beat speed, theme with major variations, entire changes in style, catching samples, dissonance, drums literally overwhelming the electric track, spoken word molded into wandering melody, counterpoint (the drums are playing so hard they actually make a secondary melody, which is terrifyingly impressive), sudden use of triplets, time signatures, key changes... it doesn't matter if you think it works, because it's still all there!

http://c.meh.cc/2347l.jpg

I haven't listened to enough metal or country to draw from a decent sampling.

Anyhow, if it turns out you like simple music and are confused by more "complex" stuff, that doesn't mean squat. If anything, it means you care more about the art versus the theory, which is arguably a much better thing. I have best of both worlds - I can appreciate a Deadmau5 dream track just as much as Fur Elise - but if you're comfortable with one level of music versus another, it really comes down to preference (again!). If anyone tries to tell you that your simple music makes you "less worthy" or something like that, please face-punch them for me.

EDIT: I accidentally a picture.

And holy carp, that took a while to type.
 

zehydra

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If you're judging music simply for the lyrics, then you have no place judging music in the first place.

Black Dog is a classic because it has awesome riffs and rhythms. He could be singing pure nonsense sounds and the song would be just as awesome.

The reason pop music sucks is because it is entirely focused on the singer and his lyrics, rather than the blending of instruments and "emotion" of the sound.

If you're not a musician, then I probably won't care much about what you think about music, simply because your mind is not trained to think about music in the same way a musician is.
 

zehydra

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CrunkParty said:
Vault101 said:
I guess, I called them elitist because they believe their music is teh best ever and everything else is trash...but perhaps "ignorance" is a better term (because its not like AC/DC and guns roses is the epitome of musical brilliance)

and whats the deal with metal heads hating on Justin beiber? its like "dude....what did he do to you?"
They're less "elitist" and more pureblend idiots. Justin Beiber is a damn fine teen pop vocalist. People don't quite grasp the subtleties of a point as intricate as "If you don't already like the genre, you won't like him", not to mention they need to put a face on the villain of their entirely invented canon. They wish hard enough that they actually believe rock and metal are dead and all that remains are genres that they don't care for (not that they'll admit that, admitting you have preferences these days appears to be a cardinal sin but I can't imagine why.) It's much better to just claim entire genres aren't music so you have an excuse to be an ignorant weasel about them and come off as some informed pseudo-critic standing up for dying trends.
He's a good vocalist, but he's a mediocre songwriter and his producers butcher it all to hell.
 

MonkeyGH

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@lacktheknack

Thanks for that last electronic song, man. :) I like electronic stuff, but I don't get into the bass drop stuff, I.E., Harlem Shake.

:p
 

zehydra

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CrunkParty said:
zehydra said:
He's a good vocalist, but he's a mediocre songwriter and his producers butcher it all to hell.
You can't apply rock values to teen pop, my friend. That's simply not how it works. I don't rag on death metal for their badly arranged horn sections.
Fine. I'll just say that teen pop is inherently anti-musical then.
 

el_kabong

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CrunkParty said:
zehydra said:
He's a good vocalist, but he's a mediocre songwriter and his producers butcher it all to hell.
You can't apply rock values to teen pop, my friend. That's simply not how it works. I don't rag on death metal for their badly arranged horn sections.
Well, if it had a horn section, I think it would be fair game to rag on it.


FULL DISCLOSURE: I was just randomly searching for death metal with orchestra. I don't actually want to rag on the song, because (sound quality aside) it's actually pretty sweet. Good random find.
 

Vault101

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Sep 26, 2010
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lacktheknack said:
thankyou! that was excellent! (also I firggen love church in the wild)
CrunkParty said:
They're less "elitist" and more pureblend idiots. Justin Beiber is a damn fine teen pop vocalist. People don't quite grasp the subtleties of a point as intricate as "If you don't already like the genre, you won't like him", not to mention they need to put a face on the villain of their entirely invented canon.
your probably onto somthing there, its nice to invent a "villan" thats coming to destroy all you like (obviously though Beiber and his ilk are not a new thing...not by a long shot)

its just fucking stupid how people go OUT OF THEIR way to get angry about somthing like that....unless somone is forcing you to listen to beiber all the time then no...your just acting like a psychopath.


zehydra said:
The reason pop music sucks is because it is entirely focused on the singer and his lyrics, rather than the blending of instruments and "emotion" of the sound.
that sounds alot like rap......

[quote/]If you're not a musician, then I probably won't care much about what you think about music, simply because your mind is not trained to think about music in the same way a musician is.[/quote]
thats pretty harsh..I think I'm just as entitled to an opinon as much as any musician if I can explain why I do/dont like a song

I might not be a filmaker but I can tell when I'm watching a bad movie
 

zehydra

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CrunkParty said:
Bhaalspawn said:
Also, this isn't 4Chan, that greentexting crap isn't going to work.
You're right. 4chan would know better.

zehydra said:
Fine. I'll just say that teen pop is inherently anti-musical then.
Atta boy. If you don't know anything about music you might as well come out and admit it. I am surprised though. I thought, as a Led Zeppelin fan, you'd see the value in a great pop hook. Lord knows that's what carried their entire career (even if they were, technically, other people's pop hooks.) I guess if it's not obscured by wailing and blues rock fetishism it doesn't tickle your cocyx, eh? Fair enough
I know plenty. I don't care about the pop hooks. I'm more concerned with the instrumentation and production style. Teen pop is hell-bent on making people sound like robots and making the recordings sound like they were put together in friggin frooty-loops
 

zehydra

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Vault101 said:
thats pretty harsh..I think I'm just as entitled to an opinon as much as any musician if I can explain why I do/dont like a song

I might not be a filmaker but I can tell when I'm watching a bad movie
actually, it's different with music. If you sing, write, or play an instrument, it will alter your perception of the music in such a way that would require significant training otherwise. That is, I am contradicting your statement. A non-musician's judgement about the quality of a song means very little.