Muslim Protestors Target Google

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TeletubbiesGolfGun

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SteewpidZombie said:
Being surprised or 'Shocked' that Muslims in the Middle East are being angry in retaliation for what they perceive is religious attacks against them, is the EXACT same kind of response you'd get in the United States if they decided to build a Mosque at Ground Zero...oh wait...
i agree that there are plenty of parts of christianity/catholics that have done horrible things in the past (to this day too) and that no one deserves a free pass on stupid shit.

however, unless there was a mosque built at ground zero before 9/11, then there is no reason for one to be built there (nor anything, if i remember right ground zero is now a memorial type place) as anyone with 2 brain cells would see it's just a troll move. however, i seriously doubt people would be screaming "death to the infidels!" *insert flag burning* *insert murders in the name of defending religion*
 

TeletubbiesGolfGun

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Driekan said:
TeletubbiesGolfGun said:
you know this might have been a point a hundred years ago or so, but "muslims" are everywhere, they aren't just in the middle east or something, they are among plenty of western styled countries, and if you want to live in a world with all the freedoms it has, you better expect to take some blows on your beliefs, everyone does.
May they don't. What then?

I'm not claiming they don't, just that there are cultural differences going on here, meaning you can't just project your value system onto them and expect them to kowtow.

TeletubbiesGolfGun said:
the world is too globalized now to pull any of this kind of shit, you're more than welcome to have your own beliefs, but when you sit there imposing it on someone else to the point of violence, then fuck you, get the fuck out and go live on some PC island cut off from the world.
You do realize that in this very phrase you are imposing your beliefs on someone else rather violently?
to your first point:

Well that's where we are at now, murdering and burnings for ridiculous reasons and people succumbing to their wimbs instead of telling them to deal with it.

project my value system onto them? if they are living in western style countries, they better "kowtow" their ass, or get the fuck out if they don't like it. and if they are clear across the globe, then they just need to not give a fuck about something that in no way shape or form is physically harming them.

to your second point:

rather violently? i told them to get the fuck out if they don't like it/can't deal with it, that is not violent at all, i'm not imposing my belief on them, i am simply telling them it.

I perfectly said they are welcome to have their own beliefs up until the point it impedes other peoples freedoms on a daily basis.
 

Driekan

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DugMachine said:
By "they" I mean the vocal minority and protesters. Sorry for my poor wording, I didn't mean to lump all of the muslim community together in one ball of hate.

But now I must ask, how is one (very stupid) man's crappy film all of "The West".

I just don't get what you're trying to convey here.
I don't mean to accuse you of anything, and I'm very sorry if it sounded like I did. I get what you're saying here.

But the thing is... Just as it is easy to just apply a "They" to this vast slice of humanity, it is easy for them to apply a "They" to the vast slice of humanity that includes you, me, and the asshole who made that film.

I'm not justifying violence, but I do think we need to act with more empathy towards a lot of people who have been getting the shaft very consistently for the last 70-odd years.
 

VanTesla

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the movie is horrid and should be shunned, but protesting against google or embassies about it is just pants on head retarded... You have a choice to not look at it and bash the horrid crap out of the guy that created it, but going violent or blockading people that had nothing to do with it just paints a bad picture for all Muslims in the eyes of the average ill informed person.

Most Muslims are not this radical, but I would say there seems to be a growing amount of ignorant and extreme groups of them that get all uptight at the drop of a dime... Also the Koran is just as peaceful and violent as the Old Testament and New Testament, but with added and changed stuff in it...

I will say the average muslim that I know is appalled by this behavior of fellow Muslims and feel they are not abiding by the Koran, but that can be said in reverse since its all interpretations like the other to religious text I spoke of.

p.s. I know I have a bad habit with run on sentences...
 

Driekan

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TeletubbiesGolfGun said:
Well that's where we are at now, murdering and burnings for ridiculous reasons and people succumbing to their wimbs instead of telling them to deal with it.

project my value system onto them? if they are living in western style countries, they better "kowtow" their ass, or get the fuck out if they don't like it. and if they are clear across the globe, then they just need to not give a fuck about something that in no way shape or form is physically harming them.
If you want to forcefully exile everyone who doesn't agree with you on a certain set of points, by all means propose that. But I don't see that you're defending anything worth defending by doing that.

TeletubbiesGolfGun said:
I perfectly said they are welcome to have their own beliefs up until the point it impedes other peoples freedoms on a daily basis.
All beliefs impede people's freedoms, just as all freedoms impede people's freedoms. There is no gaining more or less freedom, as the transfer of liberties is a zero-sum game: To every freedom one person gains, another has lost the freedom to do the opposite.

Hence, I don't see how this argument adds anything to the discussion.
 

Kittyhawk

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I find this annoying too, but by an large this is what happens when you get a lot of people, that are largely uneducated about the world, and laws in other countries and online.

The right to be offended is fine, but it doesn't trump freedom of speech, as far as I'm aware. Going after Youtube and Google is fine, but it will do little, because the film isn't breaking any laws. And by default, all these protesters are doing is promoting the film even more.

There are many films that criticise and poke fun at Christianity, the best are stuff like Monty Python's The Meaning of Life, and The Life of Bryan, but we are yet to see anyone being killed over their view.

Islam was a peaceful religion, but unfortunately its been hijacked by radical elements, who want a saber to rattle and blood to spill, instead of the enlightened path of dialogue, listening and understanding. The more blood they spill, the worse their religion looks, though. It seems all they live for is praying and shouting down stuff they don't agree with.

The key to unlocking ignorance and stupid sheep thinking is education. This is why the likes of the Taliban fear the spread of educating kids and building schools, so much. Because given time, they will lose and old ways of thinking will die out.
 

DugMachine

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Driekan said:
I don't mean to accuse you of anything, and I'm very sorry if it sounded like I did. I get what you're saying here.

But the thing is... Just as it is easy to just apply a "They" to this vast slice of humanity, it is easy for them to apply a "They" to the vast slice of humanity that includes you, me, and the asshole who made that film.

I'm not justifying violence, but I do think we need to act with more empathy towards a lot of people who have been getting the shaft very consistently for the last 70-odd years.
Ah no offense taken! But yes, I understand what you're saying now. I've got to agree with you on that, Muslim community tends to get crap deals in life.
 

Brotha Desmond

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Treblaine said:
I'm really fed up with this. What about freedom of expression? What about logic and reason? All the religions are getting in on this act, they seem to have figured out how potent religious bigotry over mild free expression can be.
Not every country has those rights.
 

TeletubbiesGolfGun

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Driekan said:
TeletubbiesGolfGun said:
Well that's where we are at now, murdering and burnings for ridiculous reasons and people succumbing to their wimbs instead of telling them to deal with it.

project my value system onto them? if they are living in western style countries, they better "kowtow" their ass, or get the fuck out if they don't like it. and if they are clear across the globe, then they just need to not give a fuck about something that in no way shape or form is physically harming them.
If you want to forcefully exile everyone who doesn't agree with you on a certain set of points, by all means propose that. But I don't see that you're defending anything worth defending by doing that.

TeletubbiesGolfGun said:
I perfectly said they are welcome to have their own beliefs up until the point it impedes other peoples freedoms on a daily basis.
All beliefs impede people's freedoms, just as all freedoms impede people's freedoms. There is no gaining more or less freedom, as the transfer of liberties is a zero-sum game: To every freedom one person gains, another has lost the freedom to do the opposite.

Hence, I don't see how this argument adds anything to the discussion.
okay we are arguing very loosely here, not even on the same points it seems like, i'm just going to have to agree to disagree about "letting up" on islam (this goes for everything, but islam in particular at the moment ), because when you target people entirely unrelated to the incident that you are bitching about, then i have no reason but to dislike you (not you in particular, the people who protested at google and that embassy situation)
 

Imperioratorex Caprae

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Grey Carter said:
Thus far the response to the film - which unfortunately goes way beyond the peaceful protests organized by MAF - has claimed the lives of at least four people, including US ambassador, John Christopher Stevens, and foreign service information management officer and EVE Online player, Sean "Vile Rat" Smith.
That whole episode had nothing to do with the youtube video. The State Dept. has released a lot of evidence that there were no protests and the attack on the Ambassador was pre-planned not a random act of violence due to a video that had very little views until after the 9/11 attack. Thank the President and his staff for fanning those flames and making light of a video that was obscure and had little to no hits.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/sep/12/chris-stevens-us-ambassador-libya-killed
Witnesses report that there were no protests and that the raid was pre-planned due to the use of RPGs. Protesters generally don't use mitlitary grade weaponry for "peaceful" means.
 

Headdrivehardscrew

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blackrave said:
No, no, no.
You're doing it wrong.
Instead of organizing protest, just hire bunch of lawyers and sue their ass
That is how you deal with such things in civilized manner

Also, isn't praying to Allah for punishing author of this movie a more suitable course of action?
Or almighty suddenly became a wimp? And if He is ok with this movie, then who are you to not be ok with it?

P.S. In the end- if you ignore this movie, nobody will give a crap about it, and it will eventually go away. But if you bring attention to it, then people will start noticing it, and watching it, an etc. Good job of dealing with things you don't like, assholes :mad:
P.P.S. Also, watch this movie, before feeling offended. Maybe you're overreacting.
Alas, no.

That's not how Islam works, neither the Qur'an all by itself nor the Sunnah expect "Allah" to do something supernatural. As a muslim believer, it is your duty and your responsibility to uphold (and spread) the ways and the truth as portrayed in the Qur'an and the Sunnah. Those raving, ranting and frothing beardymen we see burning stuff down and killing people, however, are not 'extremists', they are merely doing as they are being told by their special flavour of holy scripture , version 3.0. Every other muslim that is not raving and terribly offended by the crap movie, the crap caricatures or whatever is just doing it wrong and, depending on their place and purpose in the Ummah, would actually pretty much deserve a death penalty according to the Shari'a, because they are not defending their prophet with swords in hand and some merry battle chant on their lips.

I have watched the 'movie', and it is of rather poor value - production, cultural, artistic, you name it, it's pretty much as bad as it can get. Then again, most 'facts' that are presented, no matter how poorly or in what distasteful manner, are all pretty much straight from the very same Islamic sources the beardymen consider to be the very fundamental truth on which to build the pillars of Islam. Thing is, just portraying Muhammad is considered worthy of the death penalty, and, sometimes, telling the truth is actually more unwelcome and more dangerous than lying or exaggerating. Just my using the names "Allah" and "Muhammad" without praising their names every time I mention them deserves some severe spanking.

Fact is, these people do not want Kuffar, disbelievers, non-Muslims to know anything about the oftentimes very offensive and very non-peaceful source material. This 'movie', whatever its intentions, poorly shows some core flaws of the Muslim faith, which, to any Muslim, should be absolutely unacceptable, especially when coming from non-Muslims. However, the practice of shooting, maiming and gutting the messenger and then dragging the remains through the streets is still very much in effect.

One cherry-picked example would be the fact/law/truth that a pregnancy in a human female can last up to four years. You cannot argue this one Islamic truth, as it is written and recounted thusly. Islam is not much about emancipation, equality, logic or reason. You submit to the word and law of Allah and Muhammad, that's it. There is no 'cause and effect', there is no truth beyond or above the holy scripture. If you happen to be a moderate Muslim living in freedom in the 21st century, you're living in sin. Some beardymen will come after you once all the other problems are solved and all the other undesirables are handled properly.

And, no again - they don't need to watch it themselves. They are, actually, not even allowed to watch it. They are being told at, say, the Friday merry mosque meeting that there is a blasphemous thing that warrants and requires a response. That's all. That's how this works.
 

AnarchistFish

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Grey Carter said:
Thus far the response to the film - which unfortunately goes way beyond the peaceful protests organized by MAF - has claimed the lives of at least four people, including US ambassador, John Christopher Stevens, and foreign service information management officer and EVE Online player, Sean "Vile Rat" Smith.
Wasn't it revealed recently that that had actually been a planned terrorist attack, and the US used the protests as a scapegoat?
 

Spitfire

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Driekan said:
I'm generally appalled by the complete lack of empathy most people put on display.

snip
Empathy for what? A group of people protesting against a movie they haven't seen, to people who are not responsible for it, and asking for the denial of the same free speech that they themselves enjoy by being allowed to protest in the first place?

Good luck with that.
 

remnant_phoenix

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I find it funny that people try to say that Christianity and Islam aren't so different.

People all over the world say horrible things about Jesus every day. Do Christians attack embassies and riot in response? No.

But when one upstart American douche-bag makes an anti-Islam video on YouTube, American embassies get attacked, shops get destroyed, and when questioned the rioters justify their behavior along the lines of "we will do whatever is necessary to defend the honor of our Prophet."

Yes, I know that not ALL Muslims behave this way, and yes, throughout history there have been many acts of wonton violence in the name of Christianity, but when see how these two groups act across the world today, and when you consider that the Koran says that violence in the name of Islam is condoned in some circumstances while the Bible says nothing comparable, by what basis can you say that the two faiths aren't so different?

EDIT: I realize that I trailed off from the topic at hand, so let me reign myself back in again.

How many videos that defame Jesus and Christianity do you think are on YouTube? Do you see Christians protesting outside Google to get those pulled? No.

It amazes me how blase the Muslim world is about censoring free speech if it breaks Sharia law. The whole thing reeks of imposing religious rules on the socio-political world. What other religion currently does this?
 

Driekan

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TeletubbiesGolfGun said:
okay we are arguing very loosely here, not even on the same points it seems like, i'm just going to have to agree to disagree about "letting up" on islam (this goes for everything, but islam in particular at the moment ), because when you target people entirely unrelated to the incident that you are bitching about, then i have no reason but to dislike you (not you in particular, the people who protested at google and that embassy situation)
I dislike the people who murdered folks at the embassy, too. Don't particularly dislike the peaceful protesters in the UK, but that is something I can go with us just disagreeing over.

But the thing to bear in mind, and it is something to take to heart, is that most muslims dislike those people, too. The rioters were pulled out of the embassy building not by state agents or security forces, but by civilians. There were even "anti-protests", where muslims filled the streets of the city with signs like "Don't judge us for this, this isn't us".

Headdrivehardscrew said:
Mate, if we're going to argue on specific interpretations of religious text, that is one dangerous, dangerous, dangerous road to start walking down. You can cover all three major monotheistic religions head to heel in shit very, very easily. Needless to say, that would add nothing to the discussion other than hurt feelings and resentments all around.
 

Driekan

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remnant_phoenix said:
That's because they really aren't. Both religions have been used as excuses for violence when the controlling political will was that violence should happen. Both were exploited in the same way, while both have rather explicit calls in text not to allow for that.

As for the Bible not condoning violence ever... Have you read the Old Testament much? Or like... At all?

And when one speaks of religions in this wide sense, auxiliary texts need to also be considered. Most of the calls to violence in Islam come from secondary sources - Fatwas and such. If you throw in secondary christian sources (Papal edicts, etc.), the shit hits the fan hard and fast.
 

Headdrivehardscrew

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Driekan said:
Headdrivehardscrew said:
Mate, if we're going to argue on specific interpretations of religious text, that is one dangerous, dangerous, dangerous road to start walking down. You can cover all three major monotheistic religions head to heel in shit very, very easily. Needless to say, that would add nothing to the discussion other than hurt feelings and resentments all around.
You're still not getting it.

"Interpretations" are not allowed in Islam. There are no "interpretations". There is no "analysis". It's like the Christian Bible, old testament, with no Luther and absolutely no illumination to base any discussion, doubts or reasonings on.

"Interpretations" do not exist. Just mentioning to want to interpret the Qur'an is sinful and asks for punishment. Yeah, it's not exactly my cup of tea either.

What boggles the mind a bit, though, is that Muhammad started out writing things down that made him look like a charming chap and a rather fun fellow. It was mostly about peace, ponies and love. Eventually, with age and success, he seems to have turned bitter, and the surahs turned more violent, darker and pretty much a cream filling of hatred (against Jews and Christians). I can't find equivalents in Christian or Jewish scripture, sorry. Care to point them out for me? I'd like to read them.
 

Macgyvercas

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I find it amusing that the protesters are drawing attention to the thing they hate. I hadn't even heard of "The Innocence of Muslims" before this fiasco, so congrats protesters. You gave the thing free publicity and made yourselves look like goofs in the process.
 

TeletubbiesGolfGun

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Driekan said:
TeletubbiesGolfGun said:
okay we are arguing very loosely here, not even on the same points it seems like, i'm just going to have to agree to disagree about "letting up" on islam (this goes for everything, but islam in particular at the moment ), because when you target people entirely unrelated to the incident that you are bitching about, then i have no reason but to dislike you (not you in particular, the people who protested at google and that embassy situation)
I dislike the people who murdered folks at the embassy, too. Don't particularly dislike the peaceful protesters in the UK, but that is something I can go with us just disagreeing over.

But the thing to bear in mind, and it is something to take to heart, is that most muslims dislike those people, too. The rioters were pulled out of the embassy building not by state agents or security forces, but by civilians. There were even "anti-protests", where muslims filled the streets of the city with signs like "Don't judge us for this, this isn't us".
the part i dislike is, that every time a religion thing happens, without even reading it, you know it's islam. seriously, grow a fucking backbone, judaism and christianity has been shit talked/blown over many times in movies/games/media, the most you ever hear about is your average grandma going "videogames are for the devil!" and that's that, it doesn't turn into some violent coalition. (i've killed the pope countless times in ACII, i never once have seen people getting pissed off about that.)

while yes, there is progressiveness, it is still stuck in the dark ages while the rest of the world is globalizing and moving on at a much faster rate, it's just extremely frustrating having the world crutched by one religion's fanatics.
 

Headdrivehardscrew

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Driekan said:
And when one speaks of religions in this wide sense, auxiliary texts need to also be considered. Most of the calls to violence in Islam come from secondary sources - Fatwas and such. If you throw in secondary christian sources (Papal edicts, etc.), the shit hits the fan hard and fast.
Sorry, not quite true.

The life and teachings of Muhammad are exemplary for all (male) human beings - he is the standard of how to behave properly. Just the Qu'ran and the Sunnah teach us about the merry joys of warfare, rape, superiority, violence, special taxes and talking donkeys. Then there's the Sharia law, which knows no ifs or buts. Then, and only then, there's the hadiths as a sort of checksum for integrity. And only after these sources are exhausted, we turn to beardymen to come up with some fatwa to make our lives easier, telling us what to do and what to think about it.