Muslim Should Not Equal Villain

[RebelRising]

I hate having this conversation over internet forums, but I see it as my duty. I reference all my facts from the BBC news site (as flawed as it may be). My question would be to you is how many muslims live, vote, and earn a decent living and have a decent standard of life in Israel? Go check I'll wait. How many Jews, Christians, Buddhists, Hindu, or Shinto live, vote, and have a decent standard of living in Gaza? You can probably guess why. The problem with the palestinians and Gaza/Israel isn't the big bad jews that want to conquer the world, its that the Palestinians elect Hamas, a terrorist organization according to the US, EU, and UN, instead of electing the moderates in the Fatah party. Why is it even Egypt, a nice moderate state, has a closed border with Gaza? It's not because the Palestinians are a peace loving people who just want to live in perfect harmony. Their leaders have said time and time again they won't be happy until Israel is wiped off the map.

Thanks again Saladin and please write more interesting and well thought out articles!

Funny, I don't remember ever saying that the Palestinians were a peace-loving people, at least, no more than a lot of other peoples in the world. But it is foolish to pretend that this violence grew out of some void. What I'm saying is that all this violence is a reaction to what is to the Palestinians, a very present and real threat. While it is the wrong course for them to take, I'm not going to pretend that the lack of condemnation of Hamas and Hizbullah is just a symptom of a savage, bloodthirsty race. Why do you think they supported Hamas in the first place? I don't care if you call me an anti-Semite, if that's the best you can do, but it doesn't change the fact that, time and time again in the last 50 years, Israel has had the opportunity to engage the moderates and progressives in the Muslim world instead of using their position to wipe out any sort of opposition. It's easy to label the Muslims as 'evil' for taking the easy way out and hiding behind a big, bad organization that they think will protect them and better their lives. The Arab people are victims in all this too, just as the Jews once were themselves.

What I'm saying is that it is the Muslims' responsibility to go the extra mile to speak for themselves and be heroes themselves, rather than just the actions of extremists overshadow whatever points they wish to make in favor of moderation and diplomacy. There are already plenty of Muslim leaders who take such a stance and news networks like al-Jazeera prove that free press is not an impossibility in the Middle East. What the American media needs to is to make sure these messages reach the public. Israel and Palestine need to reach peace on their own mutual terms, or there will be no peace at all. America isn't helping by contributing to the polarization.

First off I never called you nor suggested you're an anti-semite. I would actually agree with you that al-Jazeera is actually some of the best reporting in the world.

Forgive me if I was overly defensive there, but since it's such a common response, I sort of anticipated it. And whatever you and I may think of al-Jazeera, it doesn't change the fact that it was speaking primarily to an Arab audience that had a different take on Iraq, on Israel/Palestine, and such, thus making it a valid target to the American military during the Iraq invasion. It's providing a more balanced perspective on the Israel/Palestine conflict than the mainstream media, anyways, so that in itself would turn off a lot of people.

I guess the fundamental question boils down to does Israel have a right to exist. There are compelling arguments on both sides, but my whole point is making judgments on culture (and how I tie it into the OT). I would argue that the Israeli (NOT Jewish) culture is one of inclusion, progress, and openness. The Palestinian culture is a culture that believes another entire country can not exist because they believe in the wrong god. It is a culture where it is not okay to be gay, or disagree with the government. As I mentioned even Egypt refuses to open their border with Gaza.

Of course Israel has a right to exist. It's just that Israel is not as wonderful a place as you might think. The country has basically established its own Nuremberg-style laws to relegate any non-Jew to second-class citizenship status, and it does resemble an apartheid state is several ways, such as this story [http://blogs.aljazeera.net/middle-east/2010/07/21/being-arab-israels-criteria-rape] and this story [http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2010/08/201082391120204416.html] prove. Of course Israel has a right to exist, but it is hardly a benevolent and tolerant state. But as that second article shows, there are those in Israel who recognize this and fulfill the role of moderates on that side. As for Palestine, it a culture that, much like the rest of the middle East, has trouble finding an identity other than that of Islam. But it is my personal belief that, just as Judaism and Christianity had their violent, politicized phases, Islam is currently in their own. Embracing democratic systems and open markets without external imposition would solve quite a bit of that, I think. I'm not saying Palestine is perfect, but as far as Israel is concerned, their actions aren't irrational. Remember, Israel has had its share of radicalists too, such as the Irgun group.

Getting back to my original opinion is I believe it isn't just the west that needs to reach out to Muslims, but also Muslims need to reach out to the west and not just demand that we change our ways. I don't think we will all ever just get along, but we can agree to disagree in peace.

Fair enough. I think we may have gotten a bit derailed, for what it's worth.I don't think peace is impossible, only that it is necessary for the sensible, open-minded and level-headed people to take charge and refuse to validate extremist violence on either side. Anyway, it was good talking with you.

 

[garfoldsomeoneelse]

To everybody telling the author to "get over it":

YOU DO REALIZE THAT THERE IS A NATIONAL DEBATE ON WHETHER A MUSLIM COMMUNITY CENTER SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO BE BUILT IN AN OLD BURLINGTON COAT FACTORY, AND IT'S BEING TAKEN SO SERIOUSLY THAT OTHER ISLAMIC BUILDINGS IN THE UNITED STATES ARE BEING BURNED DOWN [http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/08/28/national/main6814690.shtml], YEAH? PEOPLE IN AMERICA ARE SO IRRATIONALLY FEARFUL OF ISLAM DUE TO DELIBERATE MISREPRESENTATION THAT THEY ARE DRIVEN TO COMMIT ARSON. SELF-PROCLAIMED PATRIOTS TALK EVERY DAY OF HOW THE CONSTITUTION MAKES THE UNITED STATES THE GREATEST GOD-BLESSED COUNTRY ON EARTH, THEN TURN AROUND AND ARGUE THAT THE INALIENABLE RIGHTS THAT THEY GIVE SO MUCH LIP SERVICE TO SHOULD NOT BE EXTENDED TO PEOPLE THEY SIMPLY DON'T LIKE.

THAT IS SHEER HYPOCRISY, AND IT MAKES ME VIOLENTLY ILL.

Don't you DARE pretend that Muslims are playing the equivalent of "the race card" so that they'll get special attention, because even I'm surprised to see a modern, civil depiction of Middle-Eastern countries and cultures. In fact, I was shocked to see that the Middle-Eastern cities we were bombing and occupying weren't Mogadishu-esque orange/yellow mud-thatch dustclouds with golden onions on spires every ten feet; rather, they were paved cities with glass skyscrapers and modern shops and homes, not unlike the metropolis nearest to my residence. I had to find this out from a military series that was so realistic that it was commonly accused of being anti-war.

Do you think of Russians as a bunch of filthy farmers toiling endlessly in fields so that their government can steal all their money, who retire to their homes at the end of the day to drink multiple bottles of vodka and sing about how they'd biddy-biddy-bum all day long if they were wealthy? How about Germans; do you think they're all goose-stepping, lederhosen-wearing, Jew-killing, emotionless monsters? If you said yes to either of those without a trace of irony, you're in the same frame of mind that allows one to view Muslims as uncivilized mongrels that hate freedom so much that they're willing to blow themselves to pieces for 72 pieces of ethereal strange.

In America, Muslims are being actively vilified so that Christian evangelists have someone to contrast themselves with every time a priest rapes a boy, and so pro-war advocates can shrug and say "well, we don't have much reason for being there, but seriously, you want to tell me that those savages didn't have it coming?", and then justify the removal of the rights of certain citizens by telling stories of Muslim boogiemen that will car-bomb your children unless you stop them from entering our god-blessed country. You think I'm exaggerating? Look how fucking hostile the comments section became on page one; if Muslims were regarded in the same way as Christianity or Judaism, there would not be a firestorm of insults, vulgarity or the internet equivalent of shouting matches anywhere near the caliber of what has been clearly been displayed here.

Islamic extremists are the equivalents of the fucked-up Christian zealots that bomb abortion clinics and shoot abortion doctors in church. [http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,523581,00.html] Jesus taught people to turn the other cheek and love thy neighbor, yet certain Christians are able to pervert his message into a justification to kill... but somehow, this doesn't make anybody nervous about Christianity because "they're not real Christians". Islamic extremists, similarly, have taken a religion that advocates peace, and perverted its message as a justification to kill. Guess what? They're not real Muslims. Remember the protesters saying "behead those that insult Islam" and making death threats over a cartoon? Meet the Middle-Eastern Westboro Baptist Church. Everybody has their idiots; if you're willing to judge an entire people based on those idiots, but become indignant when someone from a different country judges you based on your peoples' idiots? Well, congratulations, you're indisputably hypocritical.

As an Atheist, I have no particular love for any people of any faith, but the ignorance required to paint an entire religion as hostile (1.5 billion strong [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_world], by the way; if rational, moderate Muslims were a rare thing, it seems logical to assume that we'd already be dead) because of a minority within that religion, absolutely infuriates me. Stop using caricatures of Muslims as a convenient excuse to indulge in narrow-minded, self-righteous fucknuttery.

 

[Shihoudani]

1) Most depictions of Muslims in video games rely on stereotypes
2) Most of these stereotypes are negative and dehumanizing
3) It doesn't have to be this way
4) One remedy would involve featuring more Arab/Muslim/Middle Eastern heroes in games

I think as one of the very first posts pointed out, in answer to 1) and 2), there is a line you can stand in behind the germans, japanese, russian, chinese, south american, and so forth. All of them have been demonized and stereotyped to death in one game or another.

And while there is a very, very small portion of games that have heroes represented from some of those that I listed, they are very few and far between.

As for 3) maybe I'm just being a realist but a lot of things don't have to be this way. Bigotry, slavery, etc exist in the world and odd's are won't be leaving until man kind ceases to exist. I understand what you're going for but until meaningful events occur that can change the view of the masses, 3) and even 4) won't likely occur, unless it's done so simply to be politically correct. Until more Arab/Muslim/Middle Eastern people shout from the roof tops against what the public at large hears and see's on a daily basis from many different news outlets, involving executions by stoning, stomping out freedom of speech with armed police/military, the oppression of women's rights in many middle eastern nations. Most people will just continue to assume the stereotypes that do exist are true.

As for the KKK / Abortion bombings and christian's having to speak out against it, they do. You don't hear of it much on TV but I've seen on several occasions where local church groups or someone from that area's local church, come out and condemn the senseless act of violence.
Church going people may not approve of topics of abortion but that doesn't mean they agree with an act of violence like so. There do exist extremist's in all religions so I'm sure a fringe section do praise it, just as fringe groups like Hamas exist also.

*scratches chin* I'm amazed I was able to say all of that while avoiding most of the real hot topic political issues revolving around this kind of issue.

 

[BloodSquirrel]

No, I read that as saying that he has a problem with them being portrayed as ONLY villains and nothing else. Not only that, but that the portrayal reduces them to moving targets to be shot, as opposed to fully realized, living and breathing characters.

Ok, see, this "as opposed to fully realized, living and breathing characters" nonsense is the problem. They are opponents on a battlefield. At what point are they going to be characterized? Are they going to start chatting you up after they spawn and before they start shooting you? How many other shooters show you the life story of mook #341 before he starts shooting at you? I asked the author these questions, and he couldn't answer.

If you want the game to go that far out of its way to make up for the fact that the villains are muslims, then you clearly do have a problem with them being portrayed as villains. "I don't have a problem with muslims as villains" are easy words to type, but when you call games that do so "offensive" you clearly don't mean them.

 

[ImpostorZim]

This is something I can't stand. I don't want anyone to get angry with what I'm about to say. Personally I love hollywood films and I love western games, but I honestly feel like American film and games have the tendency constantly antagonizing any different culture it touches and wrapping them up into stereotypes. Worst of all, they're planted in my brain and they're never leaving! South Americans are all drug dealers, Germans are all nazis, Russains are all James Bond's worst enemy and anyone from the middle east is a terrorist. I'm tired of this crap and it's one of the reasons I don't play the Medal of Honor games or any other realistic shooters, because I feel that by buying those games and playing them, I'm agreeing with the context.

 

[cainx10a]

Hey Saladin, first off very interesting read. It was really nice to hear your perspective. I think you hit some points right on the head and some points kind of fell flat.

I think my biggest problem with the Muslim community is that it seems to only demand respect from the west without doing much to earn said respect. From our perspective it is quite troubling to read about the recent riots in Iran over the elections and how the government handled it, or the laws in Saudi Arabia requiring women to all wear burkah's covering their entire bodies and faces, or reading about how the Taliban will kill a woman for leaving her house without being escorted by her man. It really seems to me that we in the west are expected to be tolerant of the Muslim community, but a lot of them seem to refuse to be tolerant of us.

It is really tough to be tolerant of Muslims and the middle east when basic civil rights of groups like women, gays, and Jews are not recognized.

And you think the Muslims from Saudi Arabia and the Muslims from Iran are the same? They share the same religion (or variation of it, wahhabhism (or w/e they call it) in SA, probably different types in Iran) , but their ideologies are different. Do I have any proof of that? Just wiki the ethnic/religious parties in Iran/Saudi Arabia for that. Germany and the countries it attacked, were Christians during WW2 and that doesn't make all Christians responsible for the holocaust considering Germany was Christian at the time, and Christianity always had a really bad relationship with Jews, while the Jewish-Muslim relationship was, at least during the dark ages not as bad as it is today, and having to be apologetic about it at every turn. Iraq/Iran had bad blood between them despite being Muslim countries.

I argued with a bigot over hours about this, there are a billion of Muslims, and the majority of them are not even in the middle-east. Muslims over the world DO NOT have to apologize over what the taliban are doing, over what al-quaida is doing or what iraqi insurgents were doing or what the despotic regime in underdeveloped countries are doing.

My point, the consumer of these products are most likely muslims living in developed countries, I have a hard time imagining some taliban playing MoH and rejoicing about finally killing some infidels.

Indeed, the Western media has a troubled relationship with the Middle East, and much of it can be a kneejerk reaction to Islam's rising presence in global politics. It would serve us well to try to reach a deeper understanding with the Middle East and understand how human they are, just as much as the rest of us.

On the other hand, keep in mind that Middle Easterns are sort of to blame too. A lot of Americans are calling it like they see it because, quite frankly, most of what they see isn't very pleasant. Since very few people are unwilling to recognize how much of a problem Israel is in relation to all this extremism. Since Islam has nothing much in the way of a centralized authority willing to declare what's right and wrong, the opportunity is always there for the message to be hijacked and presented as something it isn't necessarily. Americans tend to forget that the religious rhetoric and motivations of militants, extremists, terrorists, freedom fighters, or whatnot, are expressions so fundamentally immeshed with politics as to be rendered unrecognizable to Islamic orthodoxy. The Middle East is embroiled in confrontational politics in the form of Israel's continued racism, aggression, and expansionism, and since Islam, in all its forms, is basically the one commonl variable the Arabs and Palestinians have, it's their quickest, most digestible way to channel their political grievances. It's a mistake to equate Islam with the actions we Americans see, because they're ultimately expressions of earthly concerns that anyone in the position of a Middle Eastern, religious or not, would at least understand, if not condone.

Muslims and Middle Easterns in general have to put in more effort to clarify this to the West, and the West needs to take steps towards not being Israel's ***** and supporting Middle Eastern dictatorships. That's the only way we're truly going to get past this thick cultural barrier.

I hate having this conversation over internet forums, but I see it as my duty. I reference all my facts from the BBC news site (as flawed as it may be). My question would be to you is how many muslims live, vote, and earn a decent living and have a decent standard of life in Israel? Go check I'll wait. How many Jews, Christians, Buddhists, Hindu, or Shinto live, vote, and have a decent standard of living in Gaza? You can probably guess why. The problem with the palestinians and Gaza/Israel isn't the big bad jews that want to conquer the world, its that the Palestinians elect Hamas, a terrorist organization according to the US, EU, and UN, instead of electing the moderates in the Fatah party. Why is it even Egypt, a nice moderate state, has a closed border with Gaza? It's not because the Palestinians are a peace loving people who just want to live in perfect harmony. Their leaders have said time and time again they won't be happy until Israel is wiped off the map.

Thanks again Saladin and please write more interesting and well thought out articles!

Bullshit.

1. I'm pretty sure there are CHRISTIAN palestinians. Not all arabs are muslims.

2. When an arab muslim doctor can have his entire family blown to pieces by the same people he work his ass to save, then your entire point is moot. Arabs are known to live as second-class citizens in israel.

3. HAMAS are known to help palestinians, just like Hizballah helped lebanese considering they were a pivotal force to defend Lebanon. Israel/US refusing to acknowledge them (HAMAS) as a legitimate government when they were elected was a childish move.

4. Lebanon only recently allowed palestinians to work legally in their countries, I can't say anything about Egypt border though. Pretty much might be similar to why a certain country wants to protect its border from illegal immigrants.

5. The palestinians obviously are not peace loving, they totally don't mind being treated as cattle, killed and farmed for organs, having their kids sent to random dungeons never to be seen again, having to watch as their houses and land are destroyed by their peace-seeking neighbor, or having to live through another Israeli raid.

Also, I miss the 1-shot-2-kills pictures on Israeli-made shirts.

Bringing the Israeli-Palestinian argument in this thread is just a dick move. It has nothing to do with a Islam versus Judaism conflict, never was, never will be, as much as some people want it to be.

So FFS, stay on topic.

 

[daftnoize]

Following people would like to have a word with you on stopping to complain and get over it: Russians, Germans.

Not funny, certainly not smart!

I'm sorry, what?
Umm... World In Conflict, Modern Warfare 2, Bad Company 2, hell, pretty much every modern war game for the Russians, every WW2 game for the Germans.
Can he has his "smart" card back now?

Yeah fair enough, However I do think its slightly different with the inasane amount of Islamiphobia going on at the moment in America. Ground zero mosque is just a prime example of this. Most steriotypes of muslims portray them as terroists, not all german or russian sterotypes do (and even IF they do they are hiccups from the past not opinions which are being formed in the present). Please read this article guys though so funny and a great piece of satire. http://www.theonion.com/articles/man-already-knows-everything-he-needs-to-know-abou,17990/
"I almost gave in and listened to that guy defend Islam with words I didn't want to hear," Gentries said. "But then I remembered how much easier it is to live in a world of black-and-white in which I can assign the label of 'other' to someone and use him as a vessel for all my fears and insecurities."

While I do sympathize with the fact that Muslims have gotten a raw deal in popular culture, it seems to me that every culture is painted with an extremist brush in video games.
As an American, I actually appreciate it when games like GTA and Fallout characterize America based on the extremist xenophobic loudmouths everyone seems to associate this country with. Believe it or not we?re not all like that.

And about the ?ground zero mosque,? I think everyone should know that real NYers who lived in this city our whole life don?t care if they decide to put a mosque ON ground zero much less 4 blocks away. We live, work, and play with Muslims (and people from every other religion in the world) in this city and we resent being used as political pawns during election season which has been happening since 2001. We?re not pussies and we?re starting to resent the rest of the country treating us as such. Same thing when they were talking about trying the 911 ?mastermind? in NYC. Every retarded politician in the country had to have a say about how insensitive and dangerous it was while NYers were welcoming the trial. Most of the NYers I discussed it with were more worried about what an angry mob might do to the suspect rather than what would happen to us. Sure we got hit hard but we bounced back, now I just feel like the rest of the country (who frankly don't have as much to complain about) has to suck it up and catch up with us.

I just wonder if any Christian churches near the site of the Oklahoma city bombing caught any flack after McVeigh was caught.

My point is that everyone from every culture looks like a dick in the media from textbooks to video games. Maybe the trick is for a Muslim to start a game company of his own, then they can characterize us for being the xenophobic, loudmouth d-bags fox news wants the world to think we are. I don't care what background a game protagonist has, if the game is interesting, fun, and compelling, I will dig it.

Agree with you on everything but the line
My point is that everyone from every culture looks like a dick in the media

Although I acutally agree with that too its the fact that you think video games are a form of media. I would want to classify them as an art form which has very different implications. Take something like GTA. On the surface idiots rage about violence rasicm etc but it is clearly a satire Rockstar (a British developer) stiring up archetypical americana. It is actually a very intelligent series (shame i dont find it at all fun, as its played by mostly ****'s, an the irony of thier ignorance is glourious)

Although nit picky I believe these works of art (YES ART!) are actually more broad than most people give them credit and satirism clear charicatures, yet The irony is lost on most and although a shame it does have a negative effect. IN MY OPINION DISCLAIMER!!!

In short conservatives are the cause of EVERYTHING wrong in the world (I may be being scarastic or i may not you decide)

Well, they sure do act like they are but I can't give them that much credit.

I guess my definition of media is a bit broader than your definition of art. By media I meant everything from the 24 hour news networks, to textbooks, to books (fiction & non), to movies, to games, to even comics, and everything else. Hell music and stand up are included in my definition too. Sorry for the confusion.

BTW-I too appreciate the irony of the dbags being made fun of in GTA (on the left and right) not getting they are being made fun of. It's like conservatives who think Colbert Report is a serious show.

I just want everyone to know that despite what they might see in the news, NYers aren't pussies. We've moved on with our lives, even if people in the rest of the country haven't

Yeah i was being really picky but i suppose I would allow all art to be classified as media with art transending media . I think the point I was making (which btw Its clear you understood) is that arguing whether video games are art or not is actually a rather important thing. I have numerous reasons (available on request!) but the issue of properganda (video games spreading an opinion, such as bioshocks anti objectivism), censorship (kids can see adult aimed paintings play yet not buy video games or films) and controvesial ideas (gta, manhunt et al) are deeply rooted within them.

On a slightly less up my own arse note. There are people out there who think Colbert Report is a serious show! Thats amazing its like when fred phelps used the an article from Onion thinking it was genuine.

All important questions being asked and I am slightly more dissmissive than i ought to be of what I believe to be cretins (note not people who disagre with me just people who argue badly). Any who I am rather pleasantly surprised to see, in most cases, a really high level of debate on these forums.

 

[daftnoize]

Hey Saladin, first off very interesting read. It was really nice to hear your perspective. I think you hit some points right on the head and some points kind of fell flat.

I think my biggest problem with the Muslim community is that it seems to only demand respect from the west without doing much to earn said respect. From our perspective it is quite troubling to read about the recent riots in Iran over the elections and how the government handled it, or the laws in Saudi Arabia requiring women to all wear burkah's covering their entire bodies and faces, or reading about how the Taliban will kill a woman for leaving her house without being escorted by her man. It really seems to me that we in the west are expected to be tolerant of the Muslim community, but a lot of them seem to refuse to be tolerant of us.

It is really tough to be tolerant of Muslims and the middle east when basic civil rights of groups like women, gays, and Jews are not recognized.

And you think the Muslims from Saudi Arabia and the Muslims from Iran are the same? They share the same religion (or variation of it, wahhabhism (or w/e they call it) in SA, probably different types in Iran) , but their ideologies are different. Do I have any proof of that? Just wiki the ethnic/religious parties in Iran/Saudi Arabia for that. Germany and the countries it attacked, were Christians during WW2 and that doesn't make all Christians responsible for the holocaust considering Germany was Christian at the time, and Christianity always had a really bad relationship with Jews, while the Jewish-Muslim relationship was, at least during the dark ages not as bad as it is today, and having to be apologetic about it at every turn. Iraq/Iran had bad blood between them despite being Muslim countries.

I argued with a bigot over hours about this, there are a billion of Muslims, and the majority of them are not even in the middle-east. Muslims over the world DO NOT have to apologize over what the taliban are doing, over what al-quaida is doing or what iraqi insurgents were doing or what the despotic regime in underdeveloped countries are doing.

My point, the consumer of these products are most likely muslims living in developed countries, I have a hard time imagining some taliban playing MoH and rejoicing about finally killing some infidels.

Indeed, the Western media has a troubled relationship with the Middle East, and much of it can be a kneejerk reaction to Islam's rising presence in global politics. It would serve us well to try to reach a deeper understanding with the Middle East and understand how human they are, just as much as the rest of us.

On the other hand, keep in mind that Middle Easterns are sort of to blame too. A lot of Americans are calling it like they see it because, quite frankly, most of what they see isn't very pleasant. Since very few people are unwilling to recognize how much of a problem Israel is in relation to all this extremism. Since Islam has nothing much in the way of a centralized authority willing to declare what's right and wrong, the opportunity is always there for the message to be hijacked and presented as something it isn't necessarily. Americans tend to forget that the religious rhetoric and motivations of militants, extremists, terrorists, freedom fighters, or whatnot, are expressions so fundamentally immeshed with politics as to be rendered unrecognizable to Islamic orthodoxy. The Middle East is embroiled in confrontational politics in the form of Israel's continued racism, aggression, and expansionism, and since Islam, in all its forms, is basically the one commonl variable the Arabs and Palestinians have, it's their quickest, most digestible way to channel their political grievances. It's a mistake to equate Islam with the actions we Americans see, because they're ultimately expressions of earthly concerns that anyone in the position of a Middle Eastern, religious or not, would at least understand, if not condone.

Muslims and Middle Easterns in general have to put in more effort to clarify this to the West, and the West needs to take steps towards not being Israel's ***** and supporting Middle Eastern dictatorships. That's the only way we're truly going to get past this thick cultural barrier.

I hate having this conversation over internet forums, but I see it as my duty. I reference all my facts from the BBC news site (as flawed as it may be). My question would be to you is how many muslims live, vote, and earn a decent living and have a decent standard of life in Israel? Go check I'll wait. How many Jews, Christians, Buddhists, Hindu, or Shinto live, vote, and have a decent standard of living in Gaza? You can probably guess why. The problem with the palestinians and Gaza/Israel isn't the big bad jews that want to conquer the world, its that the Palestinians elect Hamas, a terrorist organization according to the US, EU, and UN, instead of electing the moderates in the Fatah party. Why is it even Egypt, a nice moderate state, has a closed border with Gaza? It's not because the Palestinians are a peace loving people who just want to live in perfect harmony. Their leaders have said time and time again they won't be happy until Israel is wiped off the map.

Thanks again Saladin and please write more interesting and well thought out articles!

Bullshit.

1. I'm pretty sure there are CHRISTIAN palestinians. Not all arabs are muslims.

2. When an arab muslim doctor can have his entire family blown to pieces by the same people he work his ass to save, then your entire point is moot. Arabs are known to live as second-class citizens in israel.

3. HAMAS are known to help palestinians, just like Hizballah helped lebanese considering they were a pivotal force to defend Lebanon. Israel/US refusing to acknowledge them (HAMAS) as a legitimate government when they were elected was a childish move.

4. Lebanon only recently allowed palestinians to work legally in their countries, I can't say anything about Egypt border though. Pretty much might be similar to why a certain country wants to protect its border from illegal immigrants.

5. The palestinians obviously are not peace loving, they totally don't mind being treated as cattle, killed and farmed for organs, having their kids sent to random dungeons never to be seen again, having to watch as their houses and land are destroyed by their peace-seeking neighbor, or having to live through another Israeli raid.

Also, I miss the 1-shot-2-kills pictures on Israeli-made shirts.

Bringing the Israeli-Palestinian argument in this thread is just a dick move. It has nothing to do with a Islam versus Judaism conflict, never was, never will be, as much as some people want it to be.

So FFS, stay on topic.

Read all your 'offending' posts good on you mate. It just angered me so much when Powerman88 said Muslim comunity. What like Islam is some sortof club house!

 

[daftnoize]

To everybody telling the author to "get over it":

YOU DO REALIZE THAT THERE IS A NATIONAL DEBATE ON WHETHER A MUSLIM COMMUNITY CENTER SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO BE BUILT IN AN OLD BURLINGTON COAT FACTORY, AND IT'S BEING TAKEN SO SERIOUSLY THAT OTHER ISLAMIC BUILDINGS IN THE UNITED STATES ARE BEING BURNED DOWN [http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/08/28/national/main6814690.shtml], YEAH? PEOPLE IN AMERICA ARE SO IRRATIONALLY FEARFUL OF ISLAM DUE TO DELIBERATE MISREPRESENTATION THAT THEY ARE DRIVEN TO COMMIT ARSON. SELF-PROCLAIMED PATRIOTS TALK EVERY DAY OF HOW THE CONSTITUTION MAKES THE UNITED STATES THE GREATEST GOD-BLESSED COUNTRY ON EARTH, THEN TURN AROUND AND ARGUE THAT THE INALIENABLE RIGHTS THAT THEY GIVE SO MUCH LIP SERVICE TO SHOULD NOT BE EXTENDED TO PEOPLE THEY SIMPLY DON'T LIKE.

THAT IS SHEER HYPOCRISY, AND IT MAKES ME VIOLENTLY ILL.

Don't you DARE pretend that Muslims are playing the equivalent of "the race card" so that they'll get special attention, because even I'm surprised to see a modern, civil depiction of Middle-Eastern countries and cultures. In fact, I was shocked to see that the Middle-Eastern cities we were bombing and occupying weren't Mogadishu-esque orange/yellow mud-thatch dustclouds with golden onions on spires every ten feet; rather, they were paved cities with glass skyscrapers and modern shops and homes, not unlike the metropolis nearest to my residence. I had to find this out from a military series that was so realistic that it was commonly accused of being anti-war.

Do you think of Russians as a bunch of filthy farmers toiling endlessly in fields so that their government can steal all their money, who retire to their homes at the end of the day to drink multiple bottles of vodka and sing about how they'd biddy-biddy-bum all day long if they were wealthy? How about Germans; do you think they're all goose-stepping, lederhosen-wearing, Jew-killing, emotionless monsters? If you said yes to either of those without a trace of irony, you're in the same frame of mind that allows one to view Muslims as uncivilized mongrels that hate freedom so much that they're willing to blow themselves to pieces for 72 pieces of ethereal strange.

In America, Muslims are being actively vilified so that Christian evangelists have someone to contrast themselves with every time a priest rapes a boy, and so pro-war advocates can shrug and say "well, we don't have much reason for being there, but seriously, you want to tell me that those savages didn't have it coming?", and then justify the removal of the rights of certain citizens by telling stories of Muslim boogiemen that will car-bomb your children unless you stop them from entering our god-blessed country. You think I'm exaggerating? Look how fucking hostile the comments section became on page one; if Muslims were regarded in the same way as Christianity or Judaism, there would not be a firestorm of insults, vulgarity or the internet equivalent of shouting matches anywhere near the caliber of what has been clearly been displayed here.

Islamic extremists are the equivalents of the fucked-up Christian zealots that bomb abortion clinics and shoot abortion doctors in church. [http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,523581,00.html] Jesus taught people to turn the other cheek and love thy neighbor, yet certain Christians are able to pervert his message into a justification to kill... but somehow, this doesn't make anybody nervous about Christianity because "they're not real Christians". Islamic extremists, similarly, have taken a religion that advocates peace, and perverted its message as a justification to kill. Guess what? They're not real Muslims. Remember the protesters saying "behead those that insult Islam" and making death threats over a cartoon? Meet the Middle-Eastern Westboro Baptist Church. Everybody has their idiots; if you're willing to judge an entire people based on those idiots, but become indignant when someone from a different country judges you based on your peoples' idiots? Well, congratulations, you're indisputably hypocritical.

As an Atheist, I have no particular love for any people of any faith, but the ignorance required to paint an entire religion as hostile (1.5 billion strong [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_world], by the way; if rational, moderate Muslims were a rare thing, it seems logical to assume that we'd already be dead) because of a minority within that religion, absolutely infuriates me. Stop using caricatures of Muslims as a convenient excuse to indulge in narrow-minded, self-righteous fucknuttery.

Well done I really really hate hypocracy in any form. Ignorance is just as bad. Gets to me a lot seeing some of these posts. I personally believe the Christian Right is the definition of oxymoron!

 

[cainx10a]

@Daftnoize
What 'offending' post?

 

[BehattedWanderer]

I did like Assassin's Creed for that reason, that they depicted both sides as having the sensible, and the neurotically obsessed with fervor, and for having what is one of the best representations of culture during the crusades that gaming has ever offered. Although, and maybe this is just me enjoying the vestiges of education, but I've never heard of Salah ah-Din being vilified. I've always heard of his prowess and exploits, of being a man worthy of respect, not of him being an evil to be purged. I've not heard a word against him, through most of academia. I can only think of foolish media pundits who might try to vilify him, to portray him as something evil against Christendom, but, those aren't really opinions worth listening to.

 

[maninahat]

There are just as many whites as bad guys as any other race, so please get more offended from nothing.

Yes, but white guys get to be portrayed in a whole sepctrum of characters: villains, neutrals, goodguys etc. The criticism is that Arabs and muslims are almost invariably shown as villains. I'm sure that would get irksome if that is how your culture and ethnicity was to be perpetually portrayed.

 

[maninahat]

Following people would like to have a word with you on stopping to complain and get over it: Russians, Germans.

Ah, so because the West type casts many other countries, that makes it okay.

At least Russians and Germans get to be shown as good or neutral characters on a few occasions (COD2, TF2 etc). That hardly ever happens with Arabs. You could count the number of ethnically Arabic protagonists on one hand. Contrast that with white protagonists.

 

[Chamale]

In Civilization, and many such empire-building games, Muslim nations, and Russia, are portrayed fairly. But in FPS, if Muslims or Russians appear in modern contexts, they are almost certainly the bad guys. The only exception that comes to mind is Battlefield: Bad Company. The player plays an American unjustly attacking the Middle Eastern Coalition and Russia. That makes the MEC and Russia good guys, even though they're still the enemy.

 

[DenSomKastade]

Great article! In Age Of Empires 2 you can also play as muslim on an equal field. In the Saladin (your =P) campaign arabs are for once considered the "good" and the western crusaders are the "bad".

 

[Saladin Ahmed]

No, I read that as saying that he has a problem with them being portrayed as ONLY villains and nothing else. Not only that, but that the portrayal reduces them to moving targets to be shot, as opposed to fully realized, living and breathing characters.

Ok, see, this "as opposed to fully realized, living and breathing characters" nonsense is the problem. They are opponents on a battlefield. At what point are they going to be characterized? Are they going to start chatting you up after they spawn and before they start shooting you? How many other shooters show you the life story of mook #341 before he starts shooting at you? I asked the author these questions, and he couldn't answer.

If you want the game to go that far out of its way to make up for the fact that the villains are muslims, then you clearly do have a problem with them being portrayed as villains. "I don't have a problem with muslims as villains" are easy words to type, but when you call games that do so "offensive" you clearly don't mean them.

Sigh...as I and a number of commentators have mentioned there's no problem with having Muslim villains. The problem is when the *only* Muslims that *ever* appear in games are villains. I've said this about five different ways now, as have numerous other posters.

And no, no one expects FPS games to suddenly feature enemies who sing 'kumbaya' and hug the protagonist after they spawn. It's mostly a two-dimensional genre, a fact which you can take or leave. But the best-written FPS games *do* nuance their conflicts in cutscenes, manuals, etc. Halo initially featured an unrelentingly evil alien Covenant but, over the course of the games, players are introduced to the idea that the Covenant themselves are, to a degree, dupes who are being manipulated -- and we see the Elites break from the Covenant eventually. And that's not even counting FPS/RPG hybrids. Deus Ex was functionally an FPS in most of its gameplay, and it was one of the most complex, politically nuanced, morally ambiguous games ever made.

 

[370999]

Videogames are marketed a white teenage males. Video game comapnies care about profit rather then sadism and as such thje reason why Muslims are portrayed as villains is that for the target audience, that's what alot of Islam is. If a game specifically about Muslims will sell then it will be made. This whole topic is dancing on murky assertation on both sides.

I will state that Islam is not a race and thus it is impossible to be racist towards muslims. Towards semetics certainly but not towards Muslims. There are plenty of Arabs who are Jewish. Christain, Atheist or anything else.

To finish on a divise note however I will say that I do believe that diversity is great. While I do believe that Western culture is the greates culture existing at the moment, nothing should inhibit the desire to explore and understand new things seeing as it is an integral part of western thought.

 

[Saladin Ahmed]

Great article! In Age Of Empires 2 you can also play as muslim on an equal field. In the Saladin (your =P) campaign arabs are for once considered the "good" and the western crusaders are the "bad".

Yeah, that's one I'm itching to go back and play. IIRC I was all caught up in Planescape: Torment when it came out. Which then sent me back to playing Baldur's Gate II, I think. Didn't come out of my Infinity Engine hole for months and months.