Muslim Should Not Equal Villain
- Thread starter Saladin Ahmed
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Nintendo shouldn't equal casual gaming either, but we deal the cards we're given.Saladin Ahmed said:
Denamic said:
Sigh...znix said:
Just out of curiosity do all the folks saying things like this have ANY notions of the actual history of interfaith interactions in Islamic societies, or are you just kind of regurgitating stuff you've heard?
And, also out of curiosity where are folks getting the 'Well, most Muslims might not follow this or that crazy belief, but lots do, so too bad' stuff from? Do you have any numbers for who believes what, or are you just assuming that since most of the images of Muslims you see in the media are of fanatics that must mean most Muslims actually are fanatics? CHikcen and egg, people.
But those are stereotypes that are necessary for survival of this world:
Germans - War-loving
French - Insta-surrender
Italians - Great lovers
Americans - Dumbasses
Chinese - "yes sir, our customer is our master sir"
Japanise - *bow* *bow* *bow* *bow* BANZAIIIII!
Polish - Drunkyard
Russian - Rich Drunkyard
Taliban - Terrorist
Those stereotypes rule the world!
[sub]just to clarify I'm obviously joking[/sub]
[sub][sub][sub]But French are cowards[/sub][/sub][/sub]
Germans - War-loving
French - Insta-surrender
Italians - Great lovers
Americans - Dumbasses
Chinese - "yes sir, our customer is our master sir"
Japanise - *bow* *bow* *bow* *bow* BANZAIIIII!
Polish - Drunkyard
Russian - Rich Drunkyard
Taliban - Terrorist
Those stereotypes rule the world!
[sub]just to clarify I'm obviously joking[/sub]
[sub][sub][sub]But French are cowards[/sub][/sub][/sub]
Um... no.Denamic said:
Sorry but this is not completely true.
According to Islam you behead (which is another way of saying, you kill) the disbelievers... if they start to mess with you, prosecute you, attack you, or any other form of active hostility
that right there makes a big difference right?
In case you don't get it, it changes the meaning to outright blatant aggression, to a defensive/counter-offensive stance.
you can add the Swiss banker to that listMadeinHell said:
Sadly, the western mentality to depict easterners as gibbering savages, and the eastern mentality to depict westerners as gibbering savagers, dates back to probably the very dawn of man. The men who make these games aren't catering to racism necessarily, but to a subversive mentality built into our very pop culture no one realizes is there. Like a disk defrag, only time and patience can excise these sentiments. A good way to speed up this process is however, to first draw attention to it, then to create GOOD examples of Muslim characters.
I'll say flat out that I feel no need to have the last word here, so I'm not going to argue this in detail.
I think that there is nothing wrong with villifying Muslims at all in games, it's no worse than doing the same to Nazis, and arguably more deserved. The differance is mainly in the level of propaganda as none of the major Western nations involved in the current conflicts have invoked war powers they way they did during World War II, and taken control of the information being disseminated. As many people who have researched World War II can tell you, it was not a small minority of fringe people running the war, and what's more the US and it's allies both quashed dissent and outright lied about a lot of the things that were going on during the war, things like human flesh lampshades, portable bone grinding machines, and similar atrocities were all things that were made up specifically to make the Nazis easier to kill during the conflict. Likewise anti-war opinions, and people wanting to express opinions like the ones in this article (Hitler was VERY popular all over the world when this got started) wind up having their right to speed surpressed for the duration of the conflict. Eventually this supression was removed which is of course how we know about some of the lies if you dig, and can find out how World War II was not as clean and straightforward in the fighting as history would have you believe. To put it bluntly, war sucks, and for all of the "red blooded, heroic Brits and Americans fighting honorably against evil Nazis and their horrible inventions" of fantasy, in the end we were simply put bigger bastards. You hear all about how evil The Nazis were for bombing London, we were just as bad, if not worse in the end when it came time to take Germany out and did a lot of our own bombing of civilian targets and infrastructure, etc...
At any rate, to get back on the subject. Perhaps it isn't a properly academic distinction but I personally consider there to be a differance between an Arab, someone practicing a form of Islam, and a Muslim. To me Muslims refer to the specific culture of the Middle East and the nations living throughout that region. Nothing prevents an Arab from being something other than an Islamic, or someone of another ethnicity from adopting those beliefs and lifestyle. What's more it *IS* possible to practice Islam in a form more or less acceptable to the world community. Similar to how Christinity has by and large changed and as practiced by most (including The Catholic Church) things like "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" are more or less ignored. The differance being that to Muslims, those who live in "The Muslim World" these teachings are still taught, accepted, and practiced on a societal level. Your not dealing with a radical fringe, because a radical fringe can't engage in this kind of war of martyrdom and so on (without popular support, there is no one to martyr yourself to in this context). Your typical Muslim in The Middle East might not actively be packing an AK-47 and Rocket Launcher, but at the same time they support those who do, as is seen by these people covering for the actual fighters making the ambushes. What's more people who try and reform wind up themselves running into a lot of problems from the rest of the society. When you have areas starting to change the other areas and leaders do things like attack their own people via suicide bombings and such in order to bring them back into line, and despite what a lot of people might want to think it works. This kind of thing is all over the media if you want to look.
There is no massive conspiricy to demonize Muslims, we have already seen what happens when we go there (World War II). Indeed there are tons of people all over the world who speak in defense of the culture, and so on. The negative portrayal we see occuring in spite of efforts by liberals, moralists, and the "peace at any price" crowd is brought on the Muslims by themselves.
It's a cultural issue rather than one involving a specific nation. Understand that this HAS been going on during the 1970s, but then again that's also when we started having high profile plane bombings and hijackings. Not to mention the high profile failure of diplomacy and attempts at measured responses like trying to free hostages with The Special Forces (including one legendary failure). We've also done things like provide weapons and support to leaders claiming to be progressive, only to have them betray us (yes, we created Saddam as a method of trying to deal with Iran without having to invade ourselves).
Right now we have Iran developing nuclear technology, and talking out of both sides of it's mouth. On one hand we have them telling us that they want it for peaceful energy related reasons (which they have no need for), on the other we have speeches about them getting all psyched up to fire their first bombs at Isreal.
Going much further back, look at the whole "Satanic Verses" thing, someone writes a book criticising Islam and he winds up with an international death bounty on his head and has to go into hiding. To put things into comparison, someone like "Dan Brown" writes books that are critical of Christianity (and many other people have done this as well) and he doesn't have the pope offering tons of money for his death.
This stuff isn't propaganda, it's all real, it's happened. Heck, if we wanted to demonize Muslims we'd have a heck of a lot more material to work with than we ever did with the Nazis. We've got dudes decapitating their children when they suspect their wife slept with anoter man, women being forced to marry their rapists, and of course the occasional stoning, on top of everything else. Turn this stuff over to a motivated goverment under war powers and see what they come up with.
What's more we periodically run into chatter about various Muslim groups planning to attack the US. Not to mention plans overseas to hit various high profile targets. One point made when I worked for the casinos was that both of them (Mohegan Sun and Foxwoods) had assault plans uncovered since they were relatively open areas full of civilians. Some of the plans included things like having a guy infect himself with a lethal virus and then come in to gamble to spread it around, or to simply assemble bombs in some of the hotel rooms and try and collapse the Grand Pequot Tower down onto the rest of the casino.
Plans like that are exactly why games like "Rainbow Six Vegas" get made (though in this case the plans were for Connecticut). Black Ops. being what they are, you typcially only see stuff like this happen when someone fails or doesn't find out about it. The biggest problem with many anti-terrorist video games though is that rather than having a small group of Americans holding out against large groups of terrorists in exciting gun battles, it's either over with quickly and quietly (stopped before a couple of people can do something, and then as few people are told as possible to prevent a panic) or a couple of people blow up a building or whatever.
To put things into perspective if one is to argue this started back in the 1970s, then maybe if the culture decides to massively reform (as in totally redefine the religion and lifestyle), disarm, and then chills out for another four decades, then I could see a valid complaint being made about this. Right now though, when you have thousands of people showing up in gatherings to listen to people chant about mass murder and then start chanting about killing Americans (or whomever) don't be bloody surprised when the target group doesn't like you, especially when stuff gets blown up, and we keep finding plans to blow other stuff up. Even if one argues a lot of those plans are fake, to get a rise out of people, well congrats... it's working. The portrayal in pop culture is part of how the backlash takes place. Heck, I think it's a sign how tolerant the Western World is in general that your
just now seeing stuff on quite this level.
At any rate, these are my thoughts. But then again I'm also the guy who thought they shouldn't have backed down on making that "Seven Days In Fallujah" game.
I would say that Islamics who don't like this kind of pop culture would probably do well to head down to "The Middle East" and do more to change minds instead of whining about it to Americans. They won't of course because here they can make noise and we're tolerant enough to still listen. They actually head back to The Muslim World they are as likely as not to get themselves gutted which sort of makes the point. Walk into one of those big rallies in a city square with a bullhorn and broadcast over the theocrat of the week, saying "Maybe we should chill out, and you know work with America, and change ourselves to get along better with the world community... let's ignore this guy and put down our guns!" or whatever and I doubt your going to be walking out. That's like wearing a KKK uniform to a "Black Power" rally, except instead of a fringe it's the mainstream culture which is why it's going on that way.
Enough rambling, and my apologies to those who this offends. Such are my thoughts and observations from over the years. I don't want to get too bogged down in a political debate
( I let a few of these slide recently because I said my piece and it would have become endless ).
Argueing against the portrayal of Muslims in pop culture, is like crying about the portrayal of Italian organized crime figures in games like "Mafia 2", or various inquisitions in Europe lead at various times by sweetheards like Torquemanda . The differance is of course that this is going on now. If Muslims find themselves looking into that mirror and not liking what they see, it's up to them to change, people shouldn't just ignore reality because some sociological group doesn't like it. Ignoring muslim culture because it upsets some Arabs is like trying to say The Mafia doesn't exist because it upsets some Italians, or trying to pretend that at one time it wasn't a much bigger threat that controlled large portions of the country, and even took over cities outright (Al Capone).
I think that there is nothing wrong with villifying Muslims at all in games, it's no worse than doing the same to Nazis, and arguably more deserved. The differance is mainly in the level of propaganda as none of the major Western nations involved in the current conflicts have invoked war powers they way they did during World War II, and taken control of the information being disseminated. As many people who have researched World War II can tell you, it was not a small minority of fringe people running the war, and what's more the US and it's allies both quashed dissent and outright lied about a lot of the things that were going on during the war, things like human flesh lampshades, portable bone grinding machines, and similar atrocities were all things that were made up specifically to make the Nazis easier to kill during the conflict. Likewise anti-war opinions, and people wanting to express opinions like the ones in this article (Hitler was VERY popular all over the world when this got started) wind up having their right to speed surpressed for the duration of the conflict. Eventually this supression was removed which is of course how we know about some of the lies if you dig, and can find out how World War II was not as clean and straightforward in the fighting as history would have you believe. To put it bluntly, war sucks, and for all of the "red blooded, heroic Brits and Americans fighting honorably against evil Nazis and their horrible inventions" of fantasy, in the end we were simply put bigger bastards. You hear all about how evil The Nazis were for bombing London, we were just as bad, if not worse in the end when it came time to take Germany out and did a lot of our own bombing of civilian targets and infrastructure, etc...
At any rate, to get back on the subject. Perhaps it isn't a properly academic distinction but I personally consider there to be a differance between an Arab, someone practicing a form of Islam, and a Muslim. To me Muslims refer to the specific culture of the Middle East and the nations living throughout that region. Nothing prevents an Arab from being something other than an Islamic, or someone of another ethnicity from adopting those beliefs and lifestyle. What's more it *IS* possible to practice Islam in a form more or less acceptable to the world community. Similar to how Christinity has by and large changed and as practiced by most (including The Catholic Church) things like "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" are more or less ignored. The differance being that to Muslims, those who live in "The Muslim World" these teachings are still taught, accepted, and practiced on a societal level. Your not dealing with a radical fringe, because a radical fringe can't engage in this kind of war of martyrdom and so on (without popular support, there is no one to martyr yourself to in this context). Your typical Muslim in The Middle East might not actively be packing an AK-47 and Rocket Launcher, but at the same time they support those who do, as is seen by these people covering for the actual fighters making the ambushes. What's more people who try and reform wind up themselves running into a lot of problems from the rest of the society. When you have areas starting to change the other areas and leaders do things like attack their own people via suicide bombings and such in order to bring them back into line, and despite what a lot of people might want to think it works. This kind of thing is all over the media if you want to look.
There is no massive conspiricy to demonize Muslims, we have already seen what happens when we go there (World War II). Indeed there are tons of people all over the world who speak in defense of the culture, and so on. The negative portrayal we see occuring in spite of efforts by liberals, moralists, and the "peace at any price" crowd is brought on the Muslims by themselves.
It's a cultural issue rather than one involving a specific nation. Understand that this HAS been going on during the 1970s, but then again that's also when we started having high profile plane bombings and hijackings. Not to mention the high profile failure of diplomacy and attempts at measured responses like trying to free hostages with The Special Forces (including one legendary failure). We've also done things like provide weapons and support to leaders claiming to be progressive, only to have them betray us (yes, we created Saddam as a method of trying to deal with Iran without having to invade ourselves).
Right now we have Iran developing nuclear technology, and talking out of both sides of it's mouth. On one hand we have them telling us that they want it for peaceful energy related reasons (which they have no need for), on the other we have speeches about them getting all psyched up to fire their first bombs at Isreal.
Going much further back, look at the whole "Satanic Verses" thing, someone writes a book criticising Islam and he winds up with an international death bounty on his head and has to go into hiding. To put things into comparison, someone like "Dan Brown" writes books that are critical of Christianity (and many other people have done this as well) and he doesn't have the pope offering tons of money for his death.
This stuff isn't propaganda, it's all real, it's happened. Heck, if we wanted to demonize Muslims we'd have a heck of a lot more material to work with than we ever did with the Nazis. We've got dudes decapitating their children when they suspect their wife slept with anoter man, women being forced to marry their rapists, and of course the occasional stoning, on top of everything else. Turn this stuff over to a motivated goverment under war powers and see what they come up with.
What's more we periodically run into chatter about various Muslim groups planning to attack the US. Not to mention plans overseas to hit various high profile targets. One point made when I worked for the casinos was that both of them (Mohegan Sun and Foxwoods) had assault plans uncovered since they were relatively open areas full of civilians. Some of the plans included things like having a guy infect himself with a lethal virus and then come in to gamble to spread it around, or to simply assemble bombs in some of the hotel rooms and try and collapse the Grand Pequot Tower down onto the rest of the casino.
Plans like that are exactly why games like "Rainbow Six Vegas" get made (though in this case the plans were for Connecticut). Black Ops. being what they are, you typcially only see stuff like this happen when someone fails or doesn't find out about it. The biggest problem with many anti-terrorist video games though is that rather than having a small group of Americans holding out against large groups of terrorists in exciting gun battles, it's either over with quickly and quietly (stopped before a couple of people can do something, and then as few people are told as possible to prevent a panic) or a couple of people blow up a building or whatever.
To put things into perspective if one is to argue this started back in the 1970s, then maybe if the culture decides to massively reform (as in totally redefine the religion and lifestyle), disarm, and then chills out for another four decades, then I could see a valid complaint being made about this. Right now though, when you have thousands of people showing up in gatherings to listen to people chant about mass murder and then start chanting about killing Americans (or whomever) don't be bloody surprised when the target group doesn't like you, especially when stuff gets blown up, and we keep finding plans to blow other stuff up. Even if one argues a lot of those plans are fake, to get a rise out of people, well congrats... it's working. The portrayal in pop culture is part of how the backlash takes place. Heck, I think it's a sign how tolerant the Western World is in general that your
just now seeing stuff on quite this level.
At any rate, these are my thoughts. But then again I'm also the guy who thought they shouldn't have backed down on making that "Seven Days In Fallujah" game.
I would say that Islamics who don't like this kind of pop culture would probably do well to head down to "The Middle East" and do more to change minds instead of whining about it to Americans. They won't of course because here they can make noise and we're tolerant enough to still listen. They actually head back to The Muslim World they are as likely as not to get themselves gutted which sort of makes the point. Walk into one of those big rallies in a city square with a bullhorn and broadcast over the theocrat of the week, saying "Maybe we should chill out, and you know work with America, and change ourselves to get along better with the world community... let's ignore this guy and put down our guns!" or whatever and I doubt your going to be walking out. That's like wearing a KKK uniform to a "Black Power" rally, except instead of a fringe it's the mainstream culture which is why it's going on that way.
Enough rambling, and my apologies to those who this offends. Such are my thoughts and observations from over the years. I don't want to get too bogged down in a political debate
( I let a few of these slide recently because I said my piece and it would have become endless ).
Argueing against the portrayal of Muslims in pop culture, is like crying about the portrayal of Italian organized crime figures in games like "Mafia 2", or various inquisitions in Europe lead at various times by sweetheards like Torquemanda . The differance is of course that this is going on now. If Muslims find themselves looking into that mirror and not liking what they see, it's up to them to change, people shouldn't just ignore reality because some sociological group doesn't like it. Ignoring muslim culture because it upsets some Arabs is like trying to say The Mafia doesn't exist because it upsets some Italians, or trying to pretend that at one time it wasn't a much bigger threat that controlled large portions of the country, and even took over cities outright (Al Capone).
The first Assassin'S Creed focusses on one Muslim that tries to control the masses, and another Muslim saving possibly the world from him. I don't think that's bad in any way. Would people's opinions change if they were jewish, or buddists?Stagetree said:
If people want to cast a Muslim as a Villian and make him the biggest dick in the world, who eats babies and poops on the American flag while vowing Jihad on a fly that lands in his soup, then let them.
If there is a recurring theme of Muslims being portrayed in a "bad-light" then the only issue is that no one is casting original villians.
If there is a recurring theme of Muslims being portrayed in a "bad-light" then the only issue is that no one is casting original villians.
Well get used to the demonizing (at least until we turn it towards the Chinese). My dad is convinced they're all "savages that have been fighting since the dawn of time."
*sigh* I guess he forgot the how while the Christians were going full retard in the middle ages, the Muslims were making great advances in science and mathematics (even when the retards came back for their "holy land")
*sigh* I guess he forgot the how while the Christians were going full retard in the middle ages, the Muslims were making great advances in science and mathematics (even when the retards came back for their "holy land")
To be fair, I think the average Muslim doesn't feel the need to distance him/herself from extremist jihadists any more than I feel the need to distance myself from the Ku Klux Klan. Most of them, for good or ill, would prefer simply to live their lives.cerebus23 said:
I object to that bit on Christianity, though. Even at their worst, the churches of Europe had no objection to scientific progress (though their hands were certainly not clean in other matters). That's more historical retcon than anything else.
Personally, I think the onus is neither on Christians nor Muslims, but on humanity itself to reconcile its differences. By their core teachings, Christianity and Islam are in fact not antithetical, but similar in very many ways. In fact, Muslims use the phrase "brother of the book" to refer to anyone who is Muslim, Christian or Jew.
Of course Muslim should equal villain.
However, Christian and Jewish should equal villian as well.
Organized religion is what holds mankind back after all, and should be represented as villainous and hateful wherever possible.
However, Christian and Jewish should equal villian as well.
Organized religion is what holds mankind back after all, and should be represented as villainous and hateful wherever possible.
Tom Clancy's Splinter Cell had Arabs in it? I don't remember that part...
First one took place mostly in Georgia (the country, not the state)
Second one took place in East Timor / Indonesia
Third one was all over the place: Panama, Japan, Korea... no Middle Eastern areas...
Double Agent has some Islamic characters and a Pakistani scientist... but they're only plot facilitators for the main enemy: an American terrorist organization (non-Islamic)
Finally, Conviction was all about a mole hunt in Third Echelon.
So... stupid question perhaps... but in which games were Muslims, Arabs, or other Middle Eastern peoples portrayed as the big baddies? Most of the time you fight Russian mercs and military local to the area you're in... again, not Middle Eastern areas.
Desert Strike? A thinly-veiled allusion to Desert Storm. Hardly anything to get upset about, considering the later title, Urban Strike, which depicts a terrorist attack on the World Trade Center in 2001 by a South American drug lord. I don't hear South Americans complaining about that one...
Metal Slug 2? Funny, I don't recall the enemies in the desert stages proclaiming any kind of religious affiliation... but perhaps you're just offended by the presentation? Well, how about the fact that the enemies you face for most of the game in almost the entire SERIES are nondescript whites? Or the fact that the game is basically a CARTOON?
True Lies? Weren't the "bad guys" in the intro to the story Russians? So what if the big bad for the movie was an Arab... remember the Arab agent who was working against the terrorist? The guy who was holding the news camera in that one scene? The one who died nobly trying to STOP the bad guy? No, let's just forget about the people who don't support the argument.
Let's just come to terms with some facts here: you're upset when Arabs are portrayed as enemies for any reason, even if they're also portrayed as heroes in the same context. Since that is the case, allow me to call bullshit on this, as everyone has had their turn as "the bad guy" in video games and movies over the years.
*Ahem* Bullshit.
Thank you.
First one took place mostly in Georgia (the country, not the state)
Second one took place in East Timor / Indonesia
Third one was all over the place: Panama, Japan, Korea... no Middle Eastern areas...
Double Agent has some Islamic characters and a Pakistani scientist... but they're only plot facilitators for the main enemy: an American terrorist organization (non-Islamic)
Finally, Conviction was all about a mole hunt in Third Echelon.
So... stupid question perhaps... but in which games were Muslims, Arabs, or other Middle Eastern peoples portrayed as the big baddies? Most of the time you fight Russian mercs and military local to the area you're in... again, not Middle Eastern areas.
Desert Strike? A thinly-veiled allusion to Desert Storm. Hardly anything to get upset about, considering the later title, Urban Strike, which depicts a terrorist attack on the World Trade Center in 2001 by a South American drug lord. I don't hear South Americans complaining about that one...
Metal Slug 2? Funny, I don't recall the enemies in the desert stages proclaiming any kind of religious affiliation... but perhaps you're just offended by the presentation? Well, how about the fact that the enemies you face for most of the game in almost the entire SERIES are nondescript whites? Or the fact that the game is basically a CARTOON?
True Lies? Weren't the "bad guys" in the intro to the story Russians? So what if the big bad for the movie was an Arab... remember the Arab agent who was working against the terrorist? The guy who was holding the news camera in that one scene? The one who died nobly trying to STOP the bad guy? No, let's just forget about the people who don't support the argument.
Let's just come to terms with some facts here: you're upset when Arabs are portrayed as enemies for any reason, even if they're also portrayed as heroes in the same context. Since that is the case, allow me to call bullshit on this, as everyone has had their turn as "the bad guy" in video games and movies over the years.
*Ahem* Bullshit.
Thank you.
sorry, its just the enemies of america are the enemies (of american)video games,
although games don't atmit that the enemies are muslims(cod4)its obiovous they are,
i think maybe its just some anger manegment over the whole you can't depict the prophet thing,
and those muslim extremists(i don't think prince of persia was ment to be prejudice)
but its just easy ,and because there is some truth,there are people who believe america is evil,vulger or what ever and whan it bombed
its there only really enemy
although games don't atmit that the enemies are muslims(cod4)its obiovous they are,
i think maybe its just some anger manegment over the whole you can't depict the prophet thing,
and those muslim extremists(i don't think prince of persia was ment to be prejudice)
but its just easy ,and because there is some truth,there are people who believe america is evil,vulger or what ever and whan it bombed
its there only really enemy
Your saying their evil terrorists. And that's the point, there's no need for counter-examples. The only real possible game in a shooter might be playing as a Iraqi militiaman against, again, evil terrorists. In shooters, you have to have someone to shoot.Saladin Ahmed said:
TYPING IN ALL CAPS GETS MY POINT ACROSS!!! Seriously? And oh noes! Muslims receive backlash! In fact *I* blew up the twin towers because i don't like western culture or their beliefs. Maybe their wouldn't be backlash if extremist dictators didn't rule nearly every damn country in the Middle East.Saladin Ahmed said:
And the ground zero mosque? How is that Islamaphobic? An unnecessary and unpaid for mosque is being built near a site of muslim extremists attack on American soil. And its a Cordoba mosque, the thing muslims build when they declare a victory.
How long did it take before any significant percentage of the population wanted to say sorry to Japan? Because its a little freaking soon for muslims to cry foul over being the bad guy. If thats hard to hear then suck it up. At least you weren't rounded up and sent to concentration camps like the wartime japanese
You didn't read that article, did you?SODAssault said:
CONSTRUCTION EQUIPMENT was burned. No building was burned down, as the building doesn't exist yet.
But yeah, there's a lot of insanity going on right now. I blame Fox News viewers (mostly Fox News), Christianity, and the Republican party. Take a poll of anybody protesting against or assaulting Muslims in this country, guaranteed it'll be someone from one of those three groups. I'd put money on it. Some particular groups just get off on hate.
And before anybody says I'm discriminating by blaming certain groups, consider this: just because you can see a river doesn't mean you hate water.