National Guard called into Minneapolis

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lil devils x

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Well then you're simply not a Republican, you're just conservative. Republicans and the GOP are the cult of Trump, and have been for years.
And I find it hard to believe Republicans want law and order when the President and his administration is breaking laws left and right and center and up and down and the GOP just shrug their shoulders.
Where was the law/order Republicans when kids where put in cages? In keeping the Trump company run by the Trumps? In the Ukrainian Aid mess? When Trump was impeached and the GOP laughed when they voted to deny witnesses?
No the Republicans have long since bowed to the only law they want - might makes right.
I actually think he is more libertarian than republican. :p And yea, Trump has run off most of the reasonable republicans, the thing is there are not enough die hard " Trump" republicans to get him reelected, so if he loses his general republican support before the next election, he loses. Though you do still have those republicans that do not agree with Trump but will still vote for him, but they are just as responsible for enabling Trump to do these things as the people who want him to.
 
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Dwarvenhobble

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With Trumps nonsense about calling in the Army if governors didn't act last night I thought that was it, he'd sunk any hope he had. He'd come off as fanning the flames more. Not looking for peace. Over-reacting (Non lethal rounds vs protesters throwing rocks and fireworks is one thing butt the Army is a whole new level). 1 protestor had died in an accident when police allegedly fired at a suspect in a crowd and hit the innocent guy instead with lethal round due to a perceived threat. There was 1 officer killed Friday which is being investigated.

Then last night happened.

4 Police in hospital having been shot in St Louis

3 Police in hospital 2 allegedly seriously so having been run over.

1 MSNBC new crew woman hit by fireworks from protesters

1 Police officer shot in the head (He's in the ICU) the rioter who shot at him was shot dead in return.

1 more Police officer shot in Vegas

People will look at that and go

"You know what maybe the army is needed. It seems the Police can't handle it and it's not the protesters that are the problems but those more than willing to use the protests as cover" Its a terrible situation to be in to see the Army being brought in against the people but it is deteriorating into a street war and it will be seen or spun as the army coming in the protect the People are their communities from those from out of state turning up to destroy said communities and deprive them of facilities and access to resources. To many (yes even some Black people) this would now look like bringing the Army in not against protesters but Rioters and people seeing to destroy their communities because the present system is broken and needs fixing but some people seem intent on burning it down so long as they get their way to rule over the ashes. People would rather have a broken system where they live in risk but can get most of what they need than be scrabbling round in the ashes struggling to get supplies and things they need. The rioters may do more to end the protest than anything else as because it's harming black communities having rioters burn them down, it's costing black people their businesses , It's denying those communities easy access to shops to get food and medicine, it's denying those communities jobs and as more stories like those come out it won't be "Trump sending in the military against people" it will be "Trump sending in the military to help save black communities". It all depends on how the military acts admittedly but it's very easy to see how this could fall either way.

If Biden and the Democrats need to take the lead here in essence and kind of need to stand against the rioters and make it clear they stand only with the peaceful protesters and want peace. They have to walk a fine line here of proving they can crack down on the riots because failure to do so could cost governors their positions in the long run when people see the ashes and ruins of their communities and think it was a democrat governor who failed to prevent people from out of state or wealthy suburbs coming to their inner city communities and burning them down.



A taste of their own medicine, then?
I'm sorry really?

Really we're still doing this BS group nonsense?

Just because some asshole cops don't see a person but apparently a skin colour or something?


This is the same attitude as those cops.

You don't see a person you're seeing a uniform and thinking it's justified.

If you want change you need to break the wheel not merely turn it a bit and carry on the same.


Sad thing is that I honestly don't think he had to do this to get his walk. If he'd come out peacefully its not like you'd expect a crowd he treated with peace would want to tear him apart. They aren't there to murder him.

But I think in general that the conservative mindset is very fearful at its core, they act tough but everything scares them its why they conserve so much they even fear change.
I dunno him walking out was likely deemed a risk with the crowds about. Presidents and politicians love meeting and seeing crowds but security hate it. Even if the crowd would have let him walk out peacefully (which is somewhat doubtful considering the anger at present) then you only need one idiot, one deranged person thinking they're saving the world to take a shot. I mean the Congress baseball shooting was a guy who turned up and shot at republican congress people thinking he was saving the USA or something and that was before all this kicked off.


Also IF something had happened can you imagine the chaos that would have happened?

You've turned Trump into a symbol for his base, you've proved the bullshit he's been spewing right in their eyes.

If Trump lives you've had a president who got shot trying to be peaceful his hardcore base would be on the street within hours.

If Trump dies then not only would his base be on the street but you can bet it would turn every republican senator to full on crackdown mode and any democrat opposing what would be seen as law and order would end up out of a seat most likely come November as they'd be seen as supporting a violent "communist" power grab attempt to undermine democracy and seize power, or that's how it would be spun.

Far better for everyone Trump was a dick and the streets forced to be cleared like they were.


The police are not in fact the problem but a symptom of the problem. In order to deal with the issue, the actual economic reasons for why these communities are poor, and thus more prone to have crime, and thus the major areas the police must interact with when dealing with crime, is the thing that must be addressed. We cannot turn back the clock to the end of the Civil War and change how poorly it was handled in regards to integrating the now freed black people into society so endlessly pointing this out ad nauseam without actually making meaningful action is pointless. Either the people in these extremely poor areas need to be moved somewhere where they actually have the means to better their situation with the aid given or whatever is in these neighborhoods that could be turned into a method of improving their lives needs to be found. Just handing these poor neighborhoods housing, money, or food without also creating something long term does not work, we've been trying it for years with no success which means a new solution must be taken as apposed to having them be little more than serfs clinging to the small handouts given by the government.

While I don't know if I agree with it, I did see a suggestion that the legalization of drugs that are peddled in high crime areas would lead to less crime similar to how the repealing of Prohibition reduced criminal activities to distribute it.
The problem has multiple levels though in the system and it's one hell of a problem to fix.

Why are some areas deprived?

Because of crime

Why is crime so prevalent?

Lack of jobs

Why is there a lack of jobs?

Because companies see the area as a risk due to the amount of crime.

It's catch 22

To quote Aladin

"Gotta eat to leave, gotta steal to eat"

It gets worse though.

Lets say you renovate the area. That means people with more money want to move in and the newer nicer area has landlords able to charge more or at least get more from the new residents moving in which forces poorer people out even when it's being renewed.

Some areas get "Gentrified" which is seen by some to destroy the community presently there or the change it to being lets say pretentious.

Then we have schools.

How Schools get their funding in the US is based on the average house price in the area. So an area filled with Mansions will have schools getting more money than an area filled with low end housing. Higher funding means better pay and conditions for teachers to work in and more support which means better teachers can and will be head hunted or drift towards the schools with more cash on hand because teaching isn't an easy job and fighting a system that doesn't have money to support you while teaching kids with no hope and no prospects if they don't get lucky, or join the military or just somehow leave the area is a real struggle.

About the best target would be to aim at schools honestly as the first step in reforms.

Make them safer. At least level the funding out so it's a state average funding not merely funded based on the area and balance it based on pupil numbers too so schools with less pupils (unless they are special needs schools) get less funding while over-crowded schools get more funding. Try to give a generation hope and the ability to leave the inner cities to get jobs elsewhere as a start. Then use the number of people getting said jobs to point to companies how good the area would be to set up in as they can partner with the schools to get people into apprenticeships or other jobs easily and be able to get some good candidates right on their doorstep.
 

Secondhand Revenant

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The police are not in fact the problem but a symptom of the problem. In order to deal with the issue, the actual economic reasons for why these communities are poor, and thus more prone to have crime, and thus the major areas the police must interact with when dealing with crime, is the thing that must be addressed. We cannot turn back the clock to the end of the Civil War and change how poorly it was handled in regards to integrating the now freed black people into society so endlessly pointing this out ad nauseam without actually making meaningful action is pointless. Either the people in these extremely poor areas need to be moved somewhere where they actually have the means to better their situation with the aid given or whatever is in these neighborhoods that could be turned into a method of improving their lives needs to be found. Just handing these poor neighborhoods housing, money, or food without also creating something long term does not work, we've been trying it for years with no success which means a new solution must be taken as apposed to having them be little more than serfs clinging to the small handouts given by the government.

While I don't know if I agree with it, I did see a suggestion that the legalization of drugs that are peddled in high crime areas would lead to less crime similar to how the repealing of Prohibition reduced criminal activities to distribute it.
It is utterly laughable to suggest cops are just a symptom. No, it is a problem that cops feel that they can act this way with impunity, that the system allows it without sufficient punishment. Things like qualified immunity need a hard look to change cop behavior.
 
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tstorm823

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Well then you're simply not a Republican, you're just conservative. Republicans and the GOP are the cult of Trump, and have been for years.
And I find it hard to believe Republicans want law and order when the President and his administration is breaking laws left and right and center and up and down and the GOP just shrug their shoulders.
Where was the law/order Republicans when kids where put in cages? In keeping the Trump company run by the Trumps? In the Ukrainian Aid mess? When Trump was impeached and the GOP laughed when they voted to deny witnesses?
No the Republicans have long since bowed to the only law they want - might makes right.
If I may say in the politest terms I can, you're not well informed. The pictures of kids in cages weren't from the Trump administration. There is no law making the president sell off their companies. The Ukrainian aid mess involved no crimes whatsoever. Not even the articles of impeachment listed actual broken statutes, not that they are required to, but that makes them utterly irrelevant to this argument. Not a single one of your examples of Trump breaking the law are actually Trump breaking the law.

And that's also not the point. Republicans don't believe whatever Trump says is the Republican way. That's Democratic spin, through and through. If Trump disrespects the law, that says nothing of Republicans as a whole. Nothing at all. Now, I will say, his behavior in this crisis is the first time I've really seen Republicans breaking from Trump. But that isn't loyalty to Trump. That's because every crisis in the Trump administration prior to covid-19 was manufactured political crap. All of them. Ukraine, Russia Kavanaugh... it's just a giant pile of garbage glued together by abject lies. Otherwise, his presidency has been doing whatever congress tells him to (which is the job of the POTUS) and arguing about a big wall. We don't work for Trump, he works for us. Coronavirus was a real crisis, and he handled it fine. Hell, he handled it with federalism, we love that crap. A president that sees a human crisis and relinquishes power to counter it is a Republican dream. But a president that sees a crisis of law and order and chooses to hide away and defend only himself is not. Let's see how Republicans feel about Trump right now:


Tell me again how the Republican Party are Trump loyalists. Or just get that crap out of here.

I actually think he is more libertarian than republican.
Ew, no. We're talking right now about Republicans liking Law and Order. If I could, I'd chase the libertarian faction out of the party. It's one of those situations where some policy positions align conveniently, but the ideological positions are completely different. The only thing keeping libertarians and Republicans from being mortal enemies is the unified hatred of communism.
 

Buyetyen

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Please do not engage in personal attacks on other users.
You've still not provided anything of actual merit other than to sling mud. Lil claimed that the corona virus was irrelevant yet Obsidian pointed out a clear argument that it is exactly BECAUSE of the virus that the people have been backed into a corner and now feel the need to do something. I said I saw the logic in what he said yet you continue to act as if this did not occur.
Yes, I know, you inserted yourself into a conversation by saying something dumb and petulant without actually adding to the discussion. I just off-handedly remarked how such behavior is usually driven by ego. I wasn't going to make anything more of it, and then you actually addressed me directly. If you would like me to more explicitly agree with the people criticizing your argument, I can do that too.
 

lil devils x

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Business owner who provided police with free meals who was shot and killed in Louisville at his place of business was apparently shot by an officer who had mocked protesters on social media:
"LOUISVILLE, Ky. — A Louisville police officer involved in the fatal shooting of West End business owner David McAtee had celebrated earlier on Facebook when a protester was shot by pepper balls. "
 

Secondhand Revenant

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Business owner who provided police with free meals who was shot and killed in Louisville at his place of business was apparently shot by an officer who had mocked protesters on social media:
"LOUISVILLE, Ky. — A Louisville police officer involved in the fatal shooting of West End business owner David McAtee had celebrated earlier on Facebook when a protester was shot by pepper balls. "
On a minor note from that, they really need laws involving body cams, requiring them to be on at all times, and penalties for them just 'randomly' being off.
 

Kwak

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Then last night happened.

4 Police in hospital having been shot in St Louis

3 Police in hospital 2 allegedly seriously so having been run over.

1 MSNBC new crew woman hit by fireworks from protesters

1 Police officer shot in the head (He's in the ICU) the rioter who shot at him was shot dead in return.

1 more Police officer shot in Vegas
So where's the list of civilian injuries?
 
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lil devils x

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Coronavirus was a real crisis, and he handled it fine. Hell, he handled it with federalism, we love that crap. A president that sees a human crisis and relinquishes power to counter it is a Republican dream.
Though it is worrisome you actually dismissed Trump and his campaigns other failings as "lies", especially when you look at the whole Manafort being on Russia's payroll and Flynn being on the National security counsel when he was self admittedly a foreign agent absurdity, this just SERIOUSLY, how anyone could possibly actually believe that is beyond me. We would have to literally be existing in different realities here. Trump failed at every single level of action. We have over 100,000 Americans dead and counting and numerous studies showing that trump failed to protect the people.
Go ahead and actually look at the timeline here and tell me how he did nothing when warned and scapegoated anyone and everyone except take responsibility for his own actions is somehow FINE.

1) The Pandemic is not over. it is not " past" it is still ongoing. Please do not act like it is over while we still have Americans dying daily simply because Trump deemed it to be over and is ignoring the deaths he could have reduced.
2) How is putting his inept son in law in charge of procuring medical supplies and equipment for first responders that never arrived "handling it "fine"?
3) How was ignoring the early warnings from officials and calls to stockpile PPE somehow "fine"?
4) there was NOTHING that trump did here that was actually fine. He failed at every level. Half assed listening to Fauci is better than doing nothing but it is anything but fine.
5) Trump delaying the funding required to keep Native American Reservations safe and forcing them to sue for it is NOT fine. People are dying now because of his actions.
Oh and don't give me this BS " people would have died" A LOT less people would have died of COVID-19, and ALOT more people would still not be at risk of dying now if Trump had actually done what other leaders had done. And not just died, so many people would not have become sick at all, they would not have limbs amputated they would not have permanent lung damage, they would not have to require kidney dialysis to stay alive now. Those whose lives are forever changed by Trump's incompetent decisions and poor actions do not feel that Trump has done " Fine".

I guess it actually has to affect you personally, harm you or your loved ones for you to fully understand how badly this was handled here. Hell, at this point it could likely take the lives of all your loved ones and you would still claim it was "fine" due to choosing to ignore all the point here that Trump could have done something better, as other nations actually have done. How you can ignore how badly Trump handled this is seriously mind blowing at this point.
 
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SilentPony

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I actually think he is more libertarian than republican. :p And yea, Trump has run off most of the reasonable republicans, the thing is there are not enough die hard " Trump" republicans to get him reelected, so if he loses his general republican support before the next election, he loses. Though you do still have those republicans that do not agree with Trump but will still vote for him, but they are just as responsible for enabling Trump to do these things as the people who want him to.
See my worry is even if Trump looses the election, which personally I don't see happening, he'll just declare the election rigged or stolen and refuse to leave. Whose going to stop him? People keep saying oh the 'Good' Republicans will, but A. there are none and B. they can't even stand up to him on basic facts, like if it rained.
We're putting our trust and faith in a group of people who have proven time and again over the last 4 years they only care about power and keeping it. Why should we trust any Republican who says they oppose Trump, when they still willingly call themselves Republicans? If the last 4 years haven't convinced them the initial principles of small government and equal opportunity without equal outcome have been replaced with Trump first, Trump second, Trump third and Money, then they haven't been paying attention at all.
 
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Dwarvenhobble

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Business owner who provided police with free meals who was shot and killed in Louisville at his place of business was apparently shot by an officer who had mocked protesters on social media:
"LOUISVILLE, Ky. — A Louisville police officer involved in the fatal shooting of West End business owner David McAtee had celebrated earlier on Facebook when a protester was shot by pepper balls. "
Mocked is a strong word.

More showed anger at towards a protester she claimed had mocked her and others as they stood in line and didn't react as said protester (more agitator) pretended to be giving them flowers.

How true her statement is on this who knows but it does seem to be people spinning her comments towards one person as being about more and spinning it as evidence she has malice against more than the one person who was allegedly mocking her and others.


So where's the list of civilian injuries?

Well the MSNBC presenter was technically a civilian as was the person shot by police (for shooting one of their officers).

The truth is we don't have such conclusive info on that.

I will say in the other civilian casualties that I've seen reported on.

2 Protesters one with bruising and one with a twisted ankle for blocking a truck for 20 minutes and then not moving when the Truck decided to start moving towards them rather than keep sitting there.

1 Horse potentially 2 harmed by smoke inhalation. Who were in the the trailer being pulled by said truck and the smoke bomb being thrown into the horse box section at the back is the reason the truck started moving fearing more such action by members of the crowd that would risk the lives of the horses and the lives of the drivers family where were in a separate section of the trailer that also contained the horse box.

Also the drivers actions would technically constitute as legal stand your ground actions seeing as he was acting to avoid further harm to his family or further criminal actions being done to him.
 

happyninja42

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On a minor note from that, they really need laws involving body cams, requiring them to be on at all times, and penalties for them just 'randomly' being off.
I think an easy way for that to work, though the technology might limit the feasibility of it, is to just have the devices be untouchable by the cops themselves. If they can't manually turn them on/off, then they can't "accidentally" forget to turn them on.

Though then you run into the problem of those things being on in things like public bathrooms, invasion of privacy in public spaces, etc. So, yeah it's not a fix without other problems.
 

Secondhand Revenant

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I think an easy way for that to work, though the technology might limit the feasibility of it, is to just have the devices be untouchable by the cops themselves. If they can't manually turn them on/off, then they can't "accidentally" forget to turn them on.

Though then you run into the problem of those things being on in things like public bathrooms, invasion of privacy in public spaces, etc. So, yeah it's not a fix without other problems.
I mean, I think the important thing is having laws for it, so that there is something they can be held liable for if they do turn them off. Suppose they do successfully get the camera off through some other means, would let them get away with stuff still because lack of evidence and that'll matter a lot when you're trying to charge a cop.
 

Trunkage

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i'm an essential full time worker not working from home AND i'm barely making much more than some unemployed schmoe on the dole right now.
screw jobkeeper.
Im an essential worker as well. The only good thing about all this is the drive to work
 

happyninja42

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I mean, I think the important thing is having laws for it, so that there is something they can be held liable for if they do turn them off. Suppose they do successfully get the camera off through some other means, would let them get away with stuff still because lack of evidence and that'll matter a lot when you're trying to charge a cop.
I'm pretty sure there are rules and regulations they are supposed to follow about body cams already. I mean, there are laws about how you engage a suspect, and those are broken all the time...that's kind of the problem that the protests are addressing. So I don't think just saying there is a law now will really fix it. Because as we've seen with other aspects of the checks and balances with law enforcement, there are lots of ways for them to fudge them.

Which is why, at least for the very specific issue of the body cams, removing the capacity for the individual officer to control the device, would at least alleviate some of the issues there. Like I said, it's not a perfect fix, and it creates a few new wrinkles to deal with. But it would at least address the "these incidents keep coincidentally happening when the cameras are off" problem. When they punch in for their shift, the camera comes on, and only turns off when they get back to the precinct or something. And has to be deactivated by some device that only exists in the precinct. Perhaps some status notification system in place, where if the device ever stops recording, there is an immediate notification, and the officer has to address it directly.
 

lil devils x

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See my worry is even if Trump looses the election, which personally I don't see happening, he'll just declare the election rigged or stolen and refuse to leave. Whose going to stop him? People keep saying oh the 'Good' Republicans will, but A. there are none and B. they can't even stand up to him on basic facts, like if it rained.
We're putting our trust and faith in a group of people who have proven time and again over the last 4 years they only care about power and keeping it. Why should we trust any Republican who says they oppose Trump, when they still willingly call themselves Republicans? If the last 4 years haven't convinced them the initial principles of small government and equal opportunity without equal outcome have been replaced with Trump first, Trump second, Trump third and Money, then they haven't been paying attention at all.
It would likely be up to Nancy Pelosi and the House of Representatives to do at that point and then force the Sergeant of Arms to first issue and order of arrest for the Attorney General and take over law Federal law enforcement at that point as he is the only one who can actually do so.. However, There has been some talk among military generals about some "constitutional order" within the Military that would intervene as well at that point, but I do not know enough about this shadowy group to assess that. I am not counting on congressional republicans to really put up a fight, except maybe the tea party types like Rand Paul will likely throw a fit like they usually do, but I am not counting on their help. Chances are Pelosi's hand would finally be forced to hold his administration, one by one in contempt of congress, she actually does not need the senate to do that, both the Senate and the House have their OWN sergeant at arms that are the only people who are designated to be able arrest the attorney general or the President.

I don't think any of that will happen though, Trump loves his trump tower too much to risk it all for a stunt he knows he would not succeed in. I am confident he isn't going to do anything about the election and will leave office, but WILL try to do as much "cash grabbing" in setting his businesses up with contracts as he can before he leaves. Honestly, at this point I am not even sure he really wants another term, he seems increasingly annoyed with presidential duties at all really.
 

Agema

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This is your resident Republican speaking: no. Just no. The right-wing does not want a war between police and civilians.
No, but at least a certain element of the right wing loves law and order a greaet deal and is quite keen for the authorities to impose it with, if need be, considerable force. (Same concepts as capital punishment, punitive incarceration in crappy jails, etc.)

And I find it hard to believe Republicans want law and order when the President and his administration is breaking laws left and right and center and up and down and the GOP just shrug their shoulders.
Yes, but you also need to factor in belief and legitimacy. If they simply don't believe a crime was broken, there's nothing to object to. In terms of legitimacy, there's the idea of whether the authority that law and order is upholding merits support. So for instance in a democracy, a right-wing coup against a legitimately elected leftist government is completely illegal, but if that leftist government is believed too flawed in morality or competence, it can be denied legitmacy which can okay a coup. And sure, plenty of these assessments are subjective and self-serving. But hey, so it is.
 

happyninja42

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I don't think any of that will happen though, Trump loves his trump tower too much to risk it all for a stunt he knows he would not succeed in. I am confident he isn't going to do anything about the election and will leave office, but WILL try to do as much "cash grabbing" in setting his businesses up with contracts as he can before he leaves. Honestly, at this point I am not even sure he really wants another term, he seems increasingly annoyed with presidential duties at all really.
Except his narcissistic nature, and ego will probably nag at him if he ends up just being a "1 Termer" President. He will probably see it as a slight on his masculinity and godhood, and will thus push to do 2 terms, just so nobody can accuse him of not being as long lasting as Obama.
 
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